Ashley James And Scott Schara


  • What did Scott Schara find out about the hospital’s anomaly?
  • Why did Scott think that his daughter Grace wasn’t given the proper care?
  • What drugs did they put in Grace’s body to cause her sudden death?
  • How much money does the hospital make out of COVID patients?

Heartbreaking, but this story needs to be told. This gut-wrenching story of what Scott’s daughter, Grace, went through will not be easy to listen to. . In this episode, Scott Schara will share the intentional deaths happening in the hospitals after losing his loving daughter, Grace.



Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 479. I am so honored today to have Scott Schara on the show. Scott has a very powerful message for you. And for all of us. This is something that my naturopathic mentors have been warning me about for over ten years that I’ve been studying with them. They’ve kept saying to me the number one cause of death in the United States is done at the hands of doctors on hospitals. And that sounded so outlandish when they first started proposing this, and then they showed me the statistics, and they showed me the literature, they showed me the numbers, and they said—no look, it’s not just accidents that happened, like, “Oh, I meant to give you five milligrams, not 50 milligrams. It’s not just those. And those do happen. It’s actual effects, not side effects but effects from drugs. It’s mismanagement. I don’t want to say it’s intentional, but there are certain hospitals, when we look at the statistics, they look as though they’re more interested in how many scans they can do, how many tests they can run instead of the health of the patient. They’re looking at the cash cow of the patient. And when we look at the overall picture of the medical system, we see that the medical system is designed for profit. It’s not designed to heal.

I love the doctors out there who want to do good. Who spent so many years of their life going to school because their hearts were in the right place. They want to do good. They’re in a system that is broken because it’s intentionally designed for profit. One of my naturopathic mentors was raised on a farm, very young, when he was feeding the calves with calf pellets. He looked at the ingredients, and he said—“Dad, why do we feed all the calves the vitamins, minerals, all these nutrients? Why are we feeding them all these nutrients with calf pellets? Why don’t we take these nutrients ourselves?” Because he understood even as a child. He understood the veterinary medicine aspect of farming that when you give an animal very good nutrition, it prevents disease. And if we can prevent disease in an animal, it makes the hamburger cost less. And for humans, it’s the opposite.

We wait to get sick and then go to the doctor and get put on very expensive meds. So it’s a backward world where we try to prevent disease in animals to keep them healthy and keep the cost down. But when it comes to our health, we’re not trying to keep the cost down by preventing medicine? So the whole system is just wackadoo. So when my mentor showed me, without a shadow of a doubt, they showed me all the evidence that hospitals and so many shady things go on that lead to the number one cause of death in the United States, and it is actually at the hands of the medical system.

So, Scott, you have a story that really echoes this message I keep hearing, and I’m very excited to have you on the show today because your message will save lives. So, welcome to the show.

[00:03:52] Scott Schara:  Thanks for having me. That was a great introduction. I just have a couple of quick comments before you start asking me questions. But what’s interesting, your introduction was well done, and it sets the table and what’s happened in the research only about a month ago. I crossed over to say that Grace’s death was intentional, and it was through research. When you’re at the point where you’re thinking maybe this is unintentional and I’ve come to the point of saying it is.

So the urgency my daughter put it this way which I think is a good way to put it, if you shot somebody on the street, they would put you in jail as soon as possible to stop you from killing more people. And that same thought process has to be applied to the medical professionals who are doing this type of thing like they did to our daughter Grace. And I’m not talking about just the people involved in Grace’s situation– this is running rampant in our country.


[00:05:00] Ashley James:  Right, especially in the last two years. We can do a whole talk just on the last two years and what we’ve seen hospitals do because they would get $5,000 or more per COVID patient. And then they would get this huge chunk of money from the government every time they put someone on a ventilator, so they were monetarily motivated. And again, I believe there’s good people in the system, but when we look at the outcomes, the outcomes were so horrendous.

Doctors kept doing the same thing, even though they saw a very slim chance that people would survive once they put them on the ventilator. And that their hands were tied, and they weren’t allowed to use certain medications that they saw or other doctors saw were working. But when we look at all the hospitals, we see that there’s a pattern of looking to monetize and maximize the money from each patient and not necessarily looking for the best outcome for each patient. And this is just the very sick part of the medical system is when someone’s monetarily motivated, they’re not going to make the best ethical choices for our health. So let’s dive into your story. Tell us about Grace.


[00:06:26] Scott Schara:  So Grace, I could talk about it for hours and hours. And I’m attempting to give a picture of Grace in a short time. She’s the whole motivation for doing this. There are some days that are exceptionally hard. She was my best buddy. You know when your best buddy is killed, and you know a lot of things happen in your mind. I missed her terribly just this last weekend. For example, we went on an annual fishing trip with Grace and our two grandsons, and I took the two grandsons this year without Grace. So that was tough. You relive what we did last year, and you can’t stop thinking about it. Well, it’s a joy to go on a fishing trip, but also it was so sad. I cried multiple times over the weekend.

It’s easy to do a podcast like this and all the ones we’ve been doing because she was a great kid. She had a love for our Lord that is different than anything I’ve ever seen. She called me earthly dad. And she represented God’s love the way that it’s supposed to be, and I can’t love that way. She did it because she loved me, even when I was a jerk. It gives me the motivation to do these stories and tell about Grace. And tell what happens, so it doesn’t happen to other people.

Grace was 19 when she died. She had Down syndrome. She was on the Down Syndrome scale of people. She was very high functioning, and my wife homeschooled her. She taught her how to read and write, and she could. She played violin at my daughter Jessica’s wedding. She rode horses. I taught her how to drive. She had a sense of humor second to none. She was a funny kid. She saw things through the lens of humor. If she met you for the first time, she would be encouraging. She would share a sense of humor right at the get-go. If she’d met you for the first time, she’d say, ” Well, nice to meet you, beautiful Ashley.” And then she would say– would you like to hear my dirty jokes? Of course, you would say, Well, and I couldn’t wait to hear them.” And then she would say, Well, why didn’t the toilet paper cross the road?” So then you’d say, I don’t know.” “What she would tell you, “because it was stuck in the crack.” And you would say, “well, what about your second one? She would say, “have you read the book Under the Bleachers”? And you’d say no, “I’ve never read that book”. And she said, “Would you like to know who’s written it by?“ “And, of course, you’d say, “yes”. And she’d say, “well, it was written by Seymour Butts.”

We have a website that we started, There’s hundreds of pictures, videos, all kinds of cool stuff about Grace and her life, and obviously the stories on the website. You can get to know Grace that way. I get emails every day from people who go to the website and they see how special she was. She was very unique. We see her now as an angel. God gives us an angel to walk around with us for 19 years. And the only way to make sense out of it is with understanding that God’s sovereign. He basically had her unloan to us, and He had a different purpose for Grace.


[00:10:28] Ashley James: What is your mission by coming on this podcast and sharing Grace’s story and the website What is your desire, your wish, your hope that comes out of all this?


[00:10:46] Scott Schara: There’s two very specific things we decided to do this early on, right after the hospital decided to not meet with us. We had written up all of the research that we had done. We had known by November 8 that they killed Grace but at that point, we thought it was an anomaly. So we took all the research that we did, and we were probably over 100 hours at that time. Now, it’s over $600 of research, and we codified it, put it all on documents, and sent it to the hospital requesting a meeting. So, it sounds dumb when you think about it now. I really thought it was just an exception. So, they would want to know and change the protocol, so they don’t do this to somebody else. And when they said, no, we don’t want to meet. We realized, oh my gosh, this is deeper than that.

So then we decided to go public with the story and for two reasons. Number one is to save lives. So that’s the easy one. I mean, you’re going to be motivated to save lives. You don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And when you hear the details, you’ll see what I’m talking about. We want to stop this. So when we started to go on podcasts, then you realized the national media is not going to pick up the story because it’s too out there. So then, the website was developed to post the research so people cannot just believe some dead that’s telling the story. But actually see the documents and see the research, so then they see, oh my gosh, this is true to save lives. So that’s number one.

And I just want to drill that down just a little bit because there’s two very specific pieces of that. Number one is if you need to go to the hospital, look at what is the need to check-in. So go to the emergency room visit for a true emergency which at the time when we took Grace, we thought it was a true emergency in it probably was because her oxygen level could not be maintained above 90%. We did not have to checked her in the hospital if I would had known then what I know now we would have checked her in. We would have said, no, we’re not going to admit her, and they would have sent us home with a prescription for oxygen and steroid, and Grace would be alive today. And I say that with 100% confidence because I went into different hospitals three days after Grace died with symptoms three to four times worse. I was about to die the first night, and they turned me around in 24 hours with a completely different protocol than what was followed with Grace.

Then the second piece of this physical component of saving people’s lives is a lot of the hospitals have been bought, and I don’t mean legally bought. But they’ve been practically bought by the government through a money trail, and they used COVID as an excuse. So Grace died at a hospital in Appleton, Wisconsin. I went to a different hospital in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and by God’s Grace, that hospital, we didn’t know, that hospital chose to do what’s right and follow the hippocratic oath versus doing what’s wrong. And that fact pattern, I think God used it so I could tell the story objectively. But that fact pattern is the second component of the physical piece of the message, which is check out your hospitals in your local area and vet them before the need arises because when you’re sitting in the emergency room, that isn’t the time to figure out if they been bought by the government or not. You need to know which hospitals are the good ones and which one are the bad ones ahead of time.

And then, the second component of what we want to do is the spiritual piece which we thought early on that Grace’s story may be used by God to prepare people’s hearts that they’ve been duped. That the government had duped our entire population, and if that does that to you, when you listened, you realize God wants to bring everybody back to himself and if that causes you to start searching, don’t turn it off. He wants you to search and find the only person who ever walked the face of the earth and who didn’t duped anybody, which is His Son, Jesus Christ.


[00:15:26] Ashley James: Thank you. How can we vet hospitals? I’ve got several in the area, but there’s only one I really like in my area. Actually, they publish, and it’s really interesting. This is the most honest hospital in the area.  They published all their statistics. So, for example, around COVID, what surprises me is that they’re being so honest with their statistics that if you look at month to month, the people who have been admitted in the last several months, significantly higher percentage are those who are fully vaccinated with the boosters, so they’ve got three shots. Some of them decided to get four shots, but the ones who are zero shots have a significantly less percentage of being admitted and even coming to the hospital with COVID.

They’re publishing all these statistics. They’re just being, here’s our statistics for this month, this is how many people are in the ICU, this is how many people were admitted. This is how many people who just came into the ER or tested positive. Eventhough, they are tested positive while not having any symptoms. They came in like a broken arm, and they have tested positive like they’re just showing where they’re at. And I thought that was a clue that maybe this hospital would be better than going to other hospitals because they’re being honest. But besides what they’re just showing, how can we question a hospital to know that they are not going to put money in front of my health?


[00:17:05] Scott Schara: That’s a great question. I would tell you the common sense approach. I don’t have any checklist, but just add a little critical thinking to your questions, and you can come up with an answer. So the first thing I would do is find out if they are part of a national chain or not. So with Grace’s hospital, St. Elizabeth, it’s part of a section that is a 142 hospital system. That’s big. They’re one of the largest in the country. So the bigger they are, the more likely they’re bought by the government versus the hospital system.

I went into a small region with five hospitals, that doesn’t make it good or bad. But that’s just a first cut. Medical professionals that you already know that are not generally bought by the system—chiropractors for example, dentists–if you have a trusted relationship with them, you can ask some questions to find out. But then ultimately, you’re going to find out their position on things. So, on a bright light question, obvious is, what’s your position on the vaccine? Because that will tell you an awful oath of tons of stories that I’ve heard about people that they went into their regular doctor who they trusted for years, and now he’s pushing the vaccine. Well, what does that tell you? He could be naive if you in the best-case scenario, but in the worst-case scenario, he is one that bought by the government because this thing is no good. And so, to me, the vaccination position is a bright light task. They’re pushing the vaccine. They’re pushing the narrative that’s no good. So they’ve been bought.


[00:19:03] Ashley James: It’s so overwhelming. When you think about it, we’re just us as individuals, and it’s this big system and we have to navigate this big system. When we start to go down the rabbit hole, the corruption is endless. So I’ve been looking into, observing, and picking through, and understanding the history of the modern medical system. So I urge everyone to look into that because this system is new in the scope of humanity, it’s been constructed in the last 115 years.

Before that, you could go to a homeopath. You could go to an herbal medicine practitioner. Allopathic medicine is a very new pharmaceutical-based medicine which is very new and most of their medications were made from herbs anyway. We had so many choices. And then, what happened was the entire system and the colleges and the universities were bought by the one person who owned the pharmaceutical company at the time. He made sure what was taught in the schools to the doctors was only pharmaceutical-based medicine. So, there’s been a slander campaign against all other forms of medicine for over 100 years.

Back in the 1980s, the American Chiropractic Association won a huge lawsuit against the AMA force, years and years of slander but the damage was done. There’s a whole generations of Americans and people from other countries who have been told by their primary care physician that chiropractors are quacks because that’s what they told by the AMA to say, but it’s not true. They won in the 80s, but it’s still to this day; people still believe what their doctor told them. The same things with there’s a huge PR slander campaigns around midwives because they wanted everyone to be born in a hospital and die in a hospital to increase their profits.

So, when you see that over the last 100-plus years, the medical system has been built upon the premise of making as much money as possible from each customer, not a patient. A patient is someone you want to heal, and help survive, live, and thrive and not suffer. A customer is someone you want to get as much money out of. There’s individuals in the system that are service to others that want to help, but the system is not designed to help.

So you’ve been looking into this. Can you explain how much money does each hospital gets? Let’s use this COVID as an example. I know others who’ve gone into the system and even before COVID and their care has been mismanaged significantly out of a desire to make more money for the hospital. Could you explain how much money does a hospital get when someone comes in and tests positive for COVID or dies from COVID? Or gets put on a ventilator? How much money are they being incentivized or being given by the government?


[00:22:40] Scott Schara:  Good question. I do want your last discussion. I want to just comment on it because it’s critical. You’ve laid it out perfectly. And if people don’t believe Ashley, Mikki Willis did a great job with the Plandemic tool. He laid this out in an hour and five minutes. It lays out this whole setup. So, COVID is just a bluff on the screen. It’s been used as an excuse to implement a whole bunch of stuff that’s been going on for, as you said, 115 years. So it’s important to realize that this COVID is simply being used as the excuse to open up Pandora’s box to this absolute craziness that is heading our way that Grace’s case just emphasizes.

So back to your question about the money. The Center for Medicaid Services has come out with some whistleblowers who have said that the average hospital bonus, this is not the hospital’s profit, this is just a bonus from the government for COVID patients is a hundred thousand. That’s bonus money, and I want to walk through an example so people can grasp how deep this system is being aligned or blocked by the government. So when a person checks into the hospital with COVID, they get a bonus for testing positive. I just want to walk through a ventilator as an example. So most people are pushed to be put on a ventilator, and this is by design, and the money fits the crime. So, a ventilator, when it’s put in the patient, yields a $39,000 bonus.

To set that up, they started the patient on a sedation med, typically Precedex, and that classifies the room as ICU, which is another bonus. That patient will eventually die, 85% of people put on a ventilator for COVID die, that’s a $13,000 bonus for death.


[00:24:53] Ashley James: Sorry, hold on. How much money does the hospital make if you die from COVID on a ventilator?


[00:25:00] Scott Schara: Just like COVID, death is $13,000.


[00:25:05] Ashley James: So COVID death is $13,000. If you had a car accident and you died in the ER, and you happen to test positive for COVID, do they get $13,000?


[00:25:19] Scott Schara: Correct, as long as they put it on the death certificate that way. Which their motivation is to do that. They convince the patient–not the patient at that time because they’re dead but they convince the advocate to do that because the government will reimburse your funeral cost of $9,000 for COVID death. So, if they have this way, just think about the government caused the COVID death and they make it, so they have this whole media campaign that it’s released from China and all this crazy stuff that our governments are involved with it. They want to make you think that they’re being your friend by giving you a $9,000 funeral cost reimbursement.

My wife wisely said we’re not taking their dirty money as we never took that in Grace’s case. We just felt that if we did that, we basically agreed that Grace’s death was COVID. It has nothing to do with COVID. So even though her death certificate says COVID, Grace didn’t die of COVID. So anyway, going back to how this plays out. So I just went through the bonuses that they get. The patient was probably already in a Remdesevir, so that’s another bonus. And then, they get an overall 20% bonus on top of a bonus as an added bonus for the entire state. But then, with the ventilator, the average amount of time for patients to keep them alive, they max this out. The average amount of time for patients to be alive on a ventilator is 22 days. So then you get the daily room charge which is the insurance payment and the patient’s payment. It’s approximately 300 grand for a ventilator patient.

So you can see why they pushed to put somebody on a ventilator. In Grace’s case, she was never on a ventilator because we denied it. Thankfully, we got wise to ventilators while we were in the hospital and we denied that push. They wanted us to give them a pre-approval or pre-authorization to put Grace on a ventilator whenever they wanted to, and, ultimately, I believe that because we denied that. They had to figure out a different way to take Grace out. So Grace’s case is extremely unique, not only because we were there, but the way they did it, it’s unbelievable.


[00:27:49] Ashley James: Let’s talk about that. What’s the evidence that you have that they maliciously killed your daughter?


[00:28:01] Scott Schara: There’s an overabundance of evidence. Again, I would point people to the website and then look at the tragedy tab. Roughly 70% of the research that I’ve done is posted in that tab, so that will point you to evidence. I’ll go through some other pieces that are not on the tab so then you can see–oh my gosh, this is unbelievable. We’ll go through the evidence first if you want to talk about the quality of care because that really sets this up. Because you might think, oh my gosh, how did this all even happen? What was the hospital stay alike?


[00:28:40] Ashley James: Why don’t we walk through it? So, her oxygen is lower than 90%. So you bring her into the hospital, and you check her in. Walk us through it.


[00:28:52] Scott Schara: So, right in the emergency room when they suggested that we should have met Grace, I just said well, then I’ll be staying with her. And immediately, the attending nurse said, we can’t. And I said, what’s the reason? And she said we don’t allow visitors in the COVID wing. And I said, then I’ll be taking Grace home. Unfortunately, at that point, they came back two hours later, and they said, we had a meeting, and they said, you can stay. So, I say unfortunately because, obviously at that time, I was in the mindset to take her home. I wasn’t going to be an advocate. That’s crazy that I will be going to leave my Down Syndrome daughter in the hospital alone, and no one’s going to do that.

So, they allowed me to stay, and we waited 10 hours in the emergency room for a room to open up. What I believe happened and you can make your own judgment after hearing the details. I believe, basically, we were waiting for somebody else to die. And specifically for them to take somebody else out because the hospital was at maximum capacity at this point with the Delta variant in the emergency room was also at maximum capacity. So when we waited in the emergency room for 10 hours. So about midnight on the 7th, we got in the room. My expectation at that point was that Grace and I were gonna have a mini-vacation for three or four days. It was on the first day, it was like that. So we just goofed and hopped in. They had a great menu. We could order food off the menu and it was really fun.

Towards the end of the day, they put Grace on a high-flow cannula, which is a regular cannula, what’s you see people have with the hose wrapped around their ears, with the tool inserts in the nostrils, and they’re just breathing oxygen.

That’s outmost of what Grace needed, but they insisted on a high-flow cannula. Grace’s really got agitated with that shooting air up your nostrils at 40 miles an hour. So it’s a big deal. So then, thinking oxygen is paramount here and I thought they know better. There’s an attitude that I had, unfortunately, to trust the white coat. And that’s another take-home message is let them earn your trust. Don’t just automatically blindly trust the white coat. And ultimately, based on these examples that I really didn’t trust the white coat because I was taken out of the armed guard. I may still have an overall trust for the white coat, but then they try to harm your daughter. 

So ultimately, I worked with the nurses for a couple of hours to get a BiPAP situated with Grace, and then she calmed down, and everything was fine. On that next morning, on the 8th of October, the doctor came in at eight o’clock and said, you’re going to need to put your daughter on a ventilator in the next two hours. So, I said, what is that recommendation based on? He said we did a blood gas draw the night before. So I said, what time? He said 11:30, and I told him the story about what just happened with the oxygen. And I said, I was watching the monitors. I said at that point when you guys did that, Grace’s blood pressure was 235 over 135, and her heart was racing a hundred beats a minute. So I don’t think that a blood gas draw is subjective. So I’ll let you take another one. So, they did, and Grace’s fine.

We dodged the ventilator bullet, but at that moment, I got educated mentally because I asked what’s the prognosis. I still think the majority of people will—like what you have said with chiropractors who won the lawsuit for defamation but the damage was already done. So, with ventilators, I think the damage was already done too but in a different situation. Something was  said, I think President Trump unknowingly convinced the country that we had a ventilator shortage and that ventilators are a necessary tool in the tool chest.

So I thought that just based on that paradigm that was sold to us at the beginning of COVID. At that point, I asked the doctor what the prognosis is, and he said only 20% of people walk out alive after being put on a ventilator. The attending nurse started crying and I talked with her. She has a daughter named Grace and she knew if I made this decision, Grace would going to die. So I started looking stuff up on my laptop. I had it there in the room. I talked with a doctor friend who’s helping us and we came to the base looking at home. We came to a conclusion, only 15% of people walk out alive and those 15% of people do walk out alive and most of them die in the first year from damage done to their lungs. So we decided then that Grace is not going on a ventilator and that would be crazy.

They pushed us four different times to give them that this doctor thought he had the evidence, but the other four times they pushed for a ventilator was coached in a way that they want us to give up pre-approval or pre-authorization just in case. Just in case, meaning when they decided that they would frame it this way. They said these things tend to happen in the middle of the night when we can’t get the whole family. So if we would have decided this, I mean Grace will be on a ventilator, 30 seconds after we gave him the pre-authorization because of the financial motivation.

The next example I would share with you is half on the very next day on October 9th. There’s probably 50 examples I can share with you. But these two kinds will give you a perspective of what was going on. So, on October 9th, which is a Saturday, Grace and I got up. She was hungry. I ordered food, and I started feeding her. 

Grace, obviously could feed herself, but she had a BiPAP mask on. The nurse came running in and said, you can’t do that. I said, what’s the reason? She said, Grace’s oxygen saturation was only at 85%. So, I processed that for about 15 minutes, and I thought this is impossible. She was at 95% in the emergency room with a regular cannula. Now, we had a BiPAP mask on, and then she should be near 100%. At all my COVID materials in the room, but one thing was an oxygen saturation finger monitor. So, I put it on Grace’s finger, and it read 95%. So I called the nurse back in, and I asked her if my finger meter was accurate, and she said, yes, it is. So, why is my $50 meter more accurate than your $50,000 machine? And she said, well because the lids get sweaty. Well, if you know this, I said, why don’t you proactively change out those lids or whatever you need to do every three, four hours, or whatever it takes so you have an accurate reading. Isn’t this the primary tool you’re using to manage my daughter’s care? And she’s not really responded to me.

You should just be thankful you caught this and we got wise to this one.  I’ve shared this particular example because this hospital is not the exception. I think this hospital has the rule, and they are arbitrarily lowering the oxygen saturation numbers to justify ventilators. So if anybody is wise enough to get the records after they get the call that Uncle Joe just died, and he was on a ventilator, and you started digging into the oxygen numbers, and you see, oh boy, I see where they had to put them on a ventilator is actually when he’s only at 80%. They can make these numbers anything they want and this example shows that. And now, we started monitoring Grace’s oxygen regularly. When I say we, myself when I was there, and then my daughter Jess who became the replacement. On Grace’s last day, death was at 6:02 pm, which was an hour and 25 minutes before Grace died. Grace’s oxygen was at 93%, but the meter that hospital was using was 49% lower. That’s how sick this is.


[00:37:12] Ashley James: The machine you’re talking about, the $50 machine called a Pulse Ox. 


[00:37:15] Brooke Hazen: Yes.


[00:37:17] Ashley James: I have three of them, I think which are scattered around the house because our son has asthma. When he was a toddler, actually, I had a pediatric-sized one as well for his little fingers. You can get them for $35. I just got the other one, and it had the best reviews on Amazon. And I’ve used them whenever my son has beating problems, just to check in, and then, of course, I have other ways I check his breathing like the volume of his breath and it’s allergy-induced asthma. So, we had to figure out all the allergens which are really weird stuff.

But that’s when I got introduced to a Pulse Ox and how interesting it is. When my family and I had COVID, we also used the Pulse Ox, and it’s just a little thing that clips onto your finger and sends a beam of light through your finger and It monitors your heart rate and blood oxygen saturation, which was a really great tool for me when I was going through COVID. I had just lost our daughter, and so I was going through incredible grief and also healing from birth. And then, around day 8 of having COVID, my blood pressure was like, I think it was like  80 over 60. It was some crazy low number. I remember trying to breathe heavily and feeling tightness in my chest, almost like asthma. Breathing heavily and still feeling very lightheaded, I used the Pulse Ox, and I don’t know, I was  86 or something.

I talked to a telemedicine doctor, and he said, you know what I’m not concerned about your problems that you’re having with COVID but I’m concerned that it might be a blood clot in your lungs from the birth. So, you should go in just to get checked. Thank God I’ve never had a blood clotting issue. I had just had a birth, and that is a possibility. So I did go in, and the moment I went in, I felt as if I was a prey. It was the weirdest feeling that the doctors wanted me on experimental drugs. And they said to me basically, I would not live if I don’t get these drugs. And I looked at there’s one doctor, who seemed like, yes he reminded me of my dad. So I felt like this immediate connection to him, and he felt like very kind and concern. I really felt like he had a genuine concern. I can’t feel he was like, haha, I can’t wait to get money out of this patient. Because he doesn’t like to take home the money, it’s the hospital. But he was so convinced that I would not make it like I’d be dead within 24 hours if I didn’t get on this experimental drug.

So, it’s the middle of the night, and I’m texting with my midwife, who is really good at reading research as well, and we go through and I actually asked her for informed consent. So I said, could you please give me your printout, your literature, anything on this? And they gave me a marketing pamphlet basically, I was like, this is the most amazing stuff ever. It’s not FDA-approved yet. So I said, like I’m going into my interview brain and thinking of all the interview questions I’d be asking a doctor about this, I said, what’s your experience using it? And he immediately starts telling me about the doctors on the East Coast and– oh, we’re seeing really promising results on the East Coast in the hospitals there. And I’m like, have you ever used it? What have you seen with your patients? And it turned out that their hospital just started using it and just joined the medical trial? But he didn’t have any experience using it. So he’s just citing. He’s basically the drug rep or whatever has convinced him with little talking points, the marketing points.

So, we go on the pharmaceutical’s website, it’s all the way to the bottom. And you have to scroll for days to get all the way to the bottom. I see one study that shows and this is again on the East Coast they did the study, where they showed that you have a higher percentage of dying if you’re hospitalized, and the only way you can get on this medication is if you’re hospitalized. So basically, those who get on the medication, more of them die than those who get hospitalized with COVID and don’t get on the medication. And that was enough for me. First of all, it’s an experimental medication. I’m not a guinea pig. No, thank you.

So that’s absolutely, no. There’s no way I would ever get on an experimental drug. I like drugs that have been around for like 50 years. You don’t show me a long track record of safety before you put me on anything. And so I’m looking at this and seeing that they really bury. They have to publish these, these studies, but they buried them away at the bottom. Like, how obvious can you get? Just scroll the bottom at the first place, and then more people die. If I were just not get on it, I would have a better outcome. This doctor was pushing it, pushing it and he was convinced. Now I said to him, I don’t have diabetes. I don’t have gestational diabetes, and I was like very clear about my medical history. When I came into the hospital, I said it, i mean, grief, so my blood pressure has been higher, like just from anxiety but it’s extremely low right now due to COVID. I was just worried about it. Listen, it’s kind of hard to breathe. Can you give me some like Albuterol or give me something for breathing? Give me some oxygen.

They wouldn’t send me home with oxygen, but what they did do–because I refuse to be on this medication that they want to put me on. So I said, listen, I’m not going to get admitted. I just want some help with breathing. And they handed me an Albuterol like inhaler. Inhaler that it is the exact same kind of inhaler my son has for asthma. All this is interesting that I could have stayed home–although that’s not legal I think to take someone else’s medication. But I mean, just jokingly, could have I just stayed home and hand me the hospital bill just by taking my son’s inhaler? But what they did was they handed me this inhaler and then they handed me the discharge papers. They’re like, oh welcome, he’s like I’m so worried about you, and you need to come right back to the hospital because the second you start to get worse, because you gonna get worse and you’ve got to get on this medication.

I’m like, listen, dude, I’m going to be fine. I just need a little help breathing. I wish they would have sent me home with lots of oxygen, but at least he gave me an inhaler. It started to work right away. I took a few puffs, my lungs sort of loosened up, and I’ve never had asthma, but it really helped. I was like, wow, I feel more stable already. And I look at my discharge papers, I’m looking because I want to see, and I’ve seen discharge papers before it shows the medication and how to take the medication and its side effects, like everything about the medication. And I looked through everything, and there’s not one mention of the Albuterol they handed me. And I asked the discharge nurse, can you please get the doctor or talk to the doctor like he doesn’t even say on the Albuterol bottle. Should I be doing four puffs or just as needed or four puffs or two puffs or what? And what’s really interesting is that none of my medical records it shows that he prescribed Albuterol because he doesn’t want to be seen as treating COVID with the medication. So, they handed me basically under the table and sent me on my way. So it’s not in any of my records.

It’s a day and a half later, because that’s the middle of the night. So a day and a half later, I’m sitting up, I’m on the couch, and I’m no longer in bed. I’m feeling great. Besides, like once in a while, I get on the Albuterol still because I’m still shaky, and I’m still recovering from COVID. I’m also  taking all my supplements, and I remember sitting up, but I’m helping organize because we’re actually in the middle of packing on top of everything. We’re in the middle of moving, and I get a call from the hospital. And it’s the pharmacist at the hospital and he says, you have to come back and get on this medication. Your records show that you are at high risk because you have multiple comorbidities. I’m like, what comorbidities are you talking about? He said, because you have diabetes. I specifically said I don’t have diabetes. I don’t know how they got that. But he was looking at my record and decided that– you have to get on his medication and it was a sales call. That was the weirdest and I thought was feel like it was in a twilight zone. So the hospital was calling me a day and a half later, begging me to come back and get on their drug that’s a trial medication.

It’s like a twilight zone, and the more I looked into it, I don’t even think this medication has gotten FDA approval, and it just ended up killing too many people. I’m wondering how much money that this hospital get for each patient they convinced to get on this trial. This experimental COVID treatment that was a failure. I mean, I’ve never heard of a hospital calling someone when they’re better days later. It’s not just so much checking–hey, how are you doing? No, it was the pharmacist, like you need to come back and get on this medication, and you’re going to die. I’m looking at my Pulse Ox right now, I’m 98% and I’m great. So, that’s really good, I know, I’ve gone off a little on my own tangent, but it’s a really great idea to own.

Every home should own a thermometer. Every home should own a sphygmomanometer, like a blood pressure cuff, get one for the wrist or get one for the arm, check your blood pressure regularly. That’s a good thing to know and everyone should own a pulse ox. These are the tools that allow us to check in with ourselves. But when you’re in a hospital, do you actually need to bring your own tools in the hospital to verify that their machines are accurate?


[00:47:26] Scott Schara: Thats sick, I know. I mean, I thank God we had that because we have so much evidence and it’s an overabundance. But I mean, you can’t orchestrate these coincidences without God being involved. I’m glad we have it.


[00:47:48] Ashley James: I am so thankful that you have such strong faith because it has been my faith that had helped me survive the grief of losing my daughter. Although not in any of the same circumstances. It has been drawing myself closer to the Lord, what has saved me mentally and emotionally. I’m so glad that you also have that strong relationship. And anyone who’s ever grieving, turning to the Lord, I highly recommended. It’s been something that’s been so grounding and reassuring.

So let’s keep going through Grace’s story. You were checking her oxygen that you mentioned, you could jump ahead and talk about your daughter taking over for you. Why don’t we go back? Walk us through. What happened before you left the hospital?


[00:48:52] Scott Schara: So on Sunday morning, that 10th, seven o’clock in the morning, the head nurse came in with an armed guard and told me I need to leave immediately.


[00:49:00] Ashley James: Excuse me?


[00:49:03] Scott Schara: So then I said, what is that based on? And she said three things. Interestingly, the official excuse that we received from the hospital was only the third thing. Which is she said the third thing is we suspect you of COVID. And that excuse was so laughable because they’re the ones who told me I was going to get COVID. And if they were so concerned about it, why then they ask me. I tested myself on October 7th, Grace’s first day, because I had a fever at about one o’clock, so I tested myself, and I was positive. I had COVID already for three days before they kicked me out. And if you were also concerned, you could have tested me if I gave you the approval. I mean, that wasn’t the reason. Then, she said, well  you’ve been shutting off the alarms at night.

I said, because that’s how nurses trained me how to do it. The alarms are going off constantly, which is a strange thing. It seems minor in the scheme of things when you hear the whole story, but it isn’t minor. We live in the 21st century, these alarms can go off at the nurse’s station. So I asked her, why can’t you have these go off to the nurse’s station and they lied to me, saying he can’t. The reason I said they lied, it’s because when I went into the hospital three days after Grace died, they asked, what would you like to happen? And I said, I don’t want any alarms going off, and I don’t want anybody coming in the room. I’ll buzz you if I need you, and they honor that request.

Whereas with Grace, I mean, I had to help them train me to shut off the non-essential alarms because they’re going off 20,30 times a night. Many times, it was over 20 minutes before they come in and shut them off. And then the third thing she said was that the last three shifts of nurses, I don’t want you in the room. Which of course, these stories I was telling earlier. I wasn’t doing any wrong, but I wanted to make sure my daughter was taken care of, so I was challenging everything, like with the alarms going off. I challenge right away. So, what’s the reason these alarms are going off so much? And they said, well, every time Grace–just think about these answers. They’re so dumb.

So the nurse, when I asked her this, she says, every time Grace moves her arm, it sets off an alarm. So I said, what’s the reason? She said, well we put the IV in the crux of her elbow. I said, so what’s the reason you did that at? And she said, well it was easier for us. So I said, you got to be kidding me. And of course, I’m challenging all this crazy staff, and they had such an arrogant attitude. They look down on us. They said that we were following the frontline doctors’ misinformation campaign. When they were looking, one of the doctors recommended that Grace gets on Tocilizumab, which may have been the experimental drug they wanted you to go on. So I looked this up and I found out the placebo group did better than the group on the drug. So the doctor comes in the next day asking, what’s your decision on Tocilizumab? Then I said, well, the New England Journal of Medicine has a published study that shows that the placebo group does better than the group on the med, and the med has umpteen side effects. When you see his report– we got to report after the fact. He makes me look like a complete dummy. I mean, I’m not going to put my daughter on a drug that has a better chance of killing her than not. I mean, that’s insane. Who would do that?


[00:52:53] Ashley James: You were advocating, I think, what you were doing was the right thing. The hospital kicking you out. I mean, that’s ridiculous. You are allowed ethically and legally. Your patient is allowed an advocate. The hospitals that want a patient to be alone, want an easy job. It’s not about making their job easy. It needs to be– we have one focus. When we go into a hospital, the person, the patient going in comes out alive and better than in the condition that they went in. And also that they don’t have long-term side effects of the treatment. Right? That is the goal. There’s so many good nurses out there. I’m not ripping on nurses, but there’s good people and there’s bad people. Again, I see the system’s broken, but it’s not an accident. The system is built this way. It is not built to make people healthy. So when nurses are taxed, there’s a nurse shortage, they’re working long shifts, extra shifts, overtime, they’re exhausted. Of course, we would want to do things to make it a little easier. The cutting off those corners takes away from the person’s ability to survive is not acceptable. You want to go into a hospital that wants the advocate.

I remember, I lived with my mom in the hospital in the last two weeks of her life. We brought her in, and she was dying. She had cancer. And I was her advocate, and I stayed by her side, lived with her, and this is at Toronto General. And the nurses, for the most part, very happy I was there. I got blankets, and I got water. I actually made their job a lot easier. We didn’t know we were going in to have my mom died. We didn’t know she was at the end of her life. She died very suddenly and it was a big shock. I just remember that the hospital staff—again I was 22, I didn’t have the perspective I have now. Maybe I would have seen it differently. But what I do remember that the staff were very accommodating for me and excited to have an advocate there because they saw they made their job easier.

When my son has been in the hospital and I turned to the doctor in the ER, and I say, stop what you’re doing, I need informed consent. I was expecting a fight. At the time, he was about two and a half. They were hooking him up to an IV, they’re about to pump some unknown liquid into him and I’m like, wait a second. You don’t even look at me or ask me for permission like I get we’re trying to save his life, but I need to know what’s going on. And that doctor got excited. She turned to me and she said, “Oh good, and you want informed consent? Okay, here’s what’s going on.” She explained everything. She explained the good, the bad, and the alternatives. And that’s what informed consent is.

What they’re putting in him was magnesium, so like, oh okay, sure, no problem. I’m very happy that you’re going to start using something more natural or what the body needs. Magnesium relaxes the lungs and helps them breathe, and that’s the first route. I’m not saying every children’s hospital is amazing, but my own experiences with Seattle Children’s Hospitals have been better than any other hospital I’ve been to. So there are exceptions where it’s good. If you go into a hospital and they don’t want an advocate, that is a red flag. That the staff or any of the staff or any of the nurses are frustrated that you’re asking questions that you’re advocating, that you’re there to ask for informed consent, if they are resisting informed consent, or they’re making fun of you, oh, you look something up on Google? If they’re making fun of you or talking down to being condescending or trying to go around or pressure you into something, that is a red flag. That’s a huge red flag. So at that moment when the secured guard was there, could you have taken your daughter and left the hospital?


[00:57:24] Scott Schara: Outstanding question. Technically no. I didn’t know that at the time. I learned that afterward. That’s one of the things that the first couple of months, I woke up several times a week with that question. I should have taken Grace with me, I should have taken Grace with me. And ultimately, I would have been able to, but it wouldn’t have been automatic. And the reason is we didn’t understand at that time. They had already studied Grace on the sedation drug on October 9th called Precedex and that fits into the last day when we get into that. But once a patient’s on Precedex, their room gets classified as ICU. So then, it’s one motivation they would the hospital has to get a patient get sedated because it’s not just financial, the room classified as ICU. If you want to take the patient home because you see the care is so bad, it’s not automatic anymore. It’s called against medical advice.

So now, you’ve got to sign off that you’re responsible for the patient—we didn’t ever jump through those hoops. But the way I understand it is you’ve got to sign off that you’re taking responsibility if the patient dies under your care because you’re not following the hospital’s advice anymore, that you’re responsible for the death, etcetera.

Which of course, that would have been a no-brainer. But we didn’t know any of this at the time. When we walk through these details, I try to interject the things that we learned after the fact versus what we knew live because it’s important. If you knew all this stuff live, of course, we would have taken Grace out and we had never checked her in. There were multiple times we would have taken her out. When the oxygen readings are different, and she’s not totally responds, that’s terrible care. Right? That’s an F. You don’t see it as part of an agenda at that time. Now I see it crystal clear, but at that time, I didn’t see any of those.


[00:59:35] Ashley James: Their arms have the same octopus, right? So how the staff treats you? It might not be like, oh, that one nurse was really nice and that nurse was not. Okay well, I guess they’re just exhausted. Look at any red flag as a symptom of how the entire complex works because it’s how they’re trained. It’s how they’re taught to work, and it’s the attitude that is alive in that hospital. So you have to really be aware of each red flag.

I know a friend of mine had to transfer her baby in the NICU. She advocated her midwife, and there’s big red flags. They’re doing things to their baby that is so out of the norm. I’m very concerned and so is the mother. She had just given birth. The baby’s in the NICU and she’s like, everything about their care was wrong and all the red flags are going off in her mind. And she goes, I’m transferring care. And they found a different hospital that would take them and that hospital did not want to release them. She’s like, too bad. So she got her baby to a different hospital and that hospital said I cannot believe what the other hospital did to your baby. So they did stuff like putting her on antibiotics with no reason to put her on antibiotics—all these kinds of things they did to a brand new baby, that there’s no medical reason why.

The other second hospital said, that hospital should be sued for things they were overmedicating. There was no reason for it. This happens over and over and over again. And it’s so frustrating and in between countries.

I have a family member who got a pacemaker in Chile and he comes back, and everything’s fine. He does pacemakers and doing his thing. He notices that every time he walks, he faints practically. And he came back. When he came back, he saw his cardiologist here, a good reputable cardiologist who’s been seeing him for years. For some reason, hadn’t caught that he had needed a quintuple bypass. And of course, his cardiologist will just put him on medication and doesn’t tell him to change his diet or anything. I don’t know how good of a cardiologist it is.


[01:02:01] Scott Schara: Right.


[01:02:02] Ashley James: So anyway, he’s fainting, and falling down, and hurting himself for over a year. Until we advocate for him, and we’re like, you got to go back and tell your cardiologist that something’s wrong. And he finally does, after we really push him to and it turns out they had in Chile they set the heart rate to 60 beats a minute.

So, basically when you have a pacemaker and certain pacemakers are like it’s beating your heart for you. And can you imagine like 60 beats a minute like when you’re sitting? If you’re an elite athlete, and you’re just walking, but if you’re in your 80s and you need to walk downstairs, you need more than 60 beats a minute to get enough oxygen to your muscles and your brain to walk up and downstairs.

So, the cardiologist never caught this. Never looked at it. It’s something so simple, and she’s like  if she knew about—oh yeah, Chile sets it to 60 beats per minute. He‘s been telling you for over a year that he’s been falling down, bleeding everywhere. So she had to go into a program with the pacemaker to beats higher beats a minute on average. Then he saw fainting and saw falling down. This isn’t even a life-saving event. But how many really and critically and important things fall through the cracks if you don’t advocate, if you don’t question, if you don’t push and if you don’t get a second opinion? How many critical qualities of your life, critical things fall through the quacks in medicine? We cannot look to those who wear a white medical coat as gods that are infallible. The organizations are being incentivized and paid. I think that originally the government wanted to help because– oh, the pressure would be on the medical system. So we better make sure we help and take care of it. Maybe it was out of good intentions. But it’s been like any system that monetizes, it will become an incentive for a goal. A monetary goal.


[01:04:20] Scott Schara: Well, you’re extending a lot more Grace than I am extending them. I don’t think they had good intentions at all to start with. And I say that with a fair degree of confidence, not because my daughter died, but Dr. Peter McCullough came out and stated the blinding flash of the obvious. Which is why isn’t there a research component to this virus? Why is it all going to bonus payments to hospitals for killing people? In any normal situation, the government would be putting its money behind the research, but that’s not happening with this one.


[01:04:58] Ashley James: Well, what has been talked about is that if they did the research, and they uncovered a treatment for COVID that was effective, then the pharmaceutical companies with loosey emergency use authorization for the experimental vaccines, so there’s pressure, there’s lobbying to not have a research because they want their cash cow.

I saw a meme the other day and it made me giggle, but it’s also incredibly sad and demonic. You know how they keep saying follow the science, just follow the science. And the meme says, why keep following the science, but it keeps leading me to the money?


[01:05:51] Scott Schara: That’s good. That’s great.


[01:05:59] Ashley James: I’m putting myself in your shoes. If my son was in a hospital, and armed guards came to kick me out. Oh my gosh! It would take more than armed guards to rip me from my son. I can’t imagine the intensity of emotions that was going on for you at the time.


[01:06:17] Scott Schara: That was quite an event. The armed guard was there the whole time. I argued with this nurse for about an hour. Ultimately, she said, if you don’t leave now we’re calling the Appleton Police Department. So then, I called an attorney who’s a friend and asked his perspective. He suggested leaving peacefully and so I did.


[01:06:48] Ashley James: Wrong advice.


[01:06:50] Scott Schara: I know, but I did. I gave my buddy a hug and the last time I saw her physically alive was on FaceTime calls. After that, the look in her eye that I will never forget. The armed guard walked me out to the truck and he said, Scott, you need to take this to a higher level. It was encouraging. I mean, he saw what was happening and it was wrong. Thankfully, Grace’s special needs’ attorney was available. This is a Sunday. I called one attorney and I know these people and I had their cell numbers and fortunately picked up. So, Grace’s special needs’ attorney was available and we started planning on how are we going to get an advocate replacement. My wife, Cindy couldn’t be the advocate because she had COVID. So, I called Jess and asked her, “Will you be an advocate for Grace?” And she said, “Yes, I will dad.”

We have 44 hours without coverage because we had to negotiate with the hospital attorney to let Jessica in. Second, during that 44 hours I mentioned earlier, they started Grace on the sedation med called Precedex.


[01:08:08] Ashley James:  Did they ask permission to do that?


[01:08:12] Scott Schara: To put Grace on Precedex?


[01:08:14] Ashley James: Yes.


[01:08:15] Scott Schara: No.


[01:08:17] Ashley James: So, they were giving her meds without anyone’s consent. I know the whole thing when you go to a hospital, they’re allowed to treat you with whatever because they’re trying to save you’re life, but not exactly, you are allowed informed consent. So do you feel that they went behind your back, went behind her back, and were doing some treatment plan that they didn’t talk to you guys about?


[01:06:41] Scott Schara: Absolutely. I mean, the Precedex could maybe make an exception for, but not when you see it in the light of everything.


[01:08:50] Ashley James: Why does she need to be sedated? I’m sorry to interrupt. Was she rebellious and throwing things? Was she biting nurses? Why did she need to be sedated?


[01:08:57] Scott Schara: There’s absolutely no reason. So the one minor exception you could say would be that first night when Grace had an issue when I was working with her to get the BiPap situation with the nurses. I actually suggested at that time that she needed to be sedated but that was because of that situation, my mind, oxygen was the emergency we had to get this done. I don’t know anything about sedation, but in my mind, we just need to sedate her to get her calm. Let’s get this situated, and then she’ll be fine. So, I actually recommended it down, but that was for that specific instance. So then, if you look at the records, you see that they did that at that time and then they took her off of it. Well, then they put her back on it. There was absolutely no reason. Grace was a super calm kid. She didn’t have anxiety over anything.

What they did, so, they put her back on it on October 9th when I’m still in the room. October 10th, they had her on it and I’m now out of the room during that window of 44 hours. So from eight o’clock in the morning on the 10th, during that 44 hours, subsequent, they increased the dosage seven times, and that’s ridiculous. There would be only one reason to increase the dosage, and that is because you don’t want to invest in your patient to take care of him or her. Otherwise, there’s no reason to have anybody on it. But as we’ve learned in studying, not just the records, but studying what is going on with COVID, Precedex is used as a way to set up the ventilator. So they want these patients on Precedex, just steady drips, then once they decide or the patient agrees to or the advocate agrees to a ventilator, it’s automatic. Boom! The ventilator can be done instantly. So Precedex sets the table for the ventilator.

So, your question as to why. It would be all excuses because there’s no justification to put somebody on a med when the package inserts says specifically to not use it for more than 24 hours. It’s right on the front page of the package insert and this drug is used for anesthesia, for surgery. And the anesthesia nurse that we’ve talked to say that it should never be used for more than three hours. And they had Grace on it for four full days before her last day.

So, if we walk into the last day, as I set this up with the Precedex already, then Jessica was in the room with Grace the entire day on the 12th. Grace died on the 13th of October. On the 12th, it was another good day for Grace, inspite of Grace being sedated. Grace was still herself joking around with Jessica right before they went to bed. Jessica called her two boys, Grace’s nephews, on a FaceTime call. Grace sat up in the bed and hollered through the BiPAP, “hi boys.” Just normal. She’s tickling Jess. Jess tells the story about, so she didn’t climb in bed with Grace but she would grab the chair next to the bed and lay her head on the bed, so she was holding Grace the whole time. She had her head next to Grace’s butt. Grace was tooting [inaudible 1:12:31] sorry Jess, sorry Jess.

Oh, it’s just so cute. For me, that’s typical Grace. She was a very calm person, and there’s no reason to sedate her on top of that. Jess and I were there other than the 44 hours. There were reasons to sedate when we’re not there is to not to do their job. You’ll see that as we now walk through the last day which is even pretty egregious.


[01:13:58] Ashley James: Your daughter Jess, how old was she at that time?


[01:13:03] Scott Schara: 31. Yes 32, she’ll be 32 coming up here in June.


[01:13:08] Ashley James: So, a 31-year-old woman, who’s your older daughter is taking care of her 19-year-old sister with high functioning Down Syndrome in the hospital. She’s being put on more and more and more sedation, although there’s no reason for it. While she’s using your $50 pulse ox to check Grace’s levels of oxygen saturation to see how different they were from the hospital, and she was maintaining that Grace was at high oxygen saturation the whole time?


[01:13:43] Scott Schara: In fact, that last night, Grace was at 98-99% the entire night.


[01:13:47] Ashley James: So why would she still be in the hospital?


[01:13:51] Scott Schara: Great question. I would say because they can. I mean, we weren’t wise enough to get her out. There’s multiple times when you could ask that question. The medical malpractice nurse who reviewed the records basically said that they used Precedex as the way to set up Grace’s death. She called it chemically restraining Grace. So they chemically restrained her to set up the the last day. The doctor called us at eight o’clock in the morning in Grace’s last day. He had talked with us the evening before asking for the fourth time to pre-approve a ventilator. So he wanted our decision. We told him, no again. Then he made that comment that Grace had such a good day yesterday. We should put in a feeding tube. 


[01:14:39] Ashley James: What?


[01:14:40] Scott Schara: So Cindy and I foolishly agreed to this.


[01:14:45] Ashley James: Wait. I don’t understand. Her oxygen is in the high 90s. Why does she need to be put on a feeding tube?


[01:14:51] Scott Schara: Well, she was malnutritioned at this same. So remember the story I told you when they wouldn’t let me feed Grace. Well, the same thing that happened with Jess. They wouldn’t let us feed her. That story gets deeper because I even told them, I said, there’s no reason we cannot feed Grace. So I said, I watched. When Grace was on a BiPap, they went through a series multiple times a day, where people would come in, remove the BiPap and then get Grace’s mouth moist because it would dry her mouth out. And I watched how they did it and I’m just right there. Okay, so they put in the high-flow cannula and they turned it down to low pressure, so it’s not at 40 miles an hour. Grace was actually stable the whole time. So, when these nurses would say we can’t feed her. I said, we could feed her and you could do it too, I told them exactly. This is what happens when the ladies come in and the nurses come into what Grace’s mouth.

They said, well the doctor says, we got to have the high flow BiPap at 40 miles an hour. It doesn’t have to be there. They would not listen to me. They have just dump that. So ultimately, Grace by this time is seven days into malnutrition. She’s malnutritioned because they chose not to listen and not do their job.

So we foolishly agreed to this. And ultimately, it plays out until this last day and you’ll see, he called us at eight o’clock and we approved this. Now eight-thirty or so. There’s a 14-year ICU nurse in charge of Grace’s care this day. Very significant because when you start wondering, was this premeditated, was it intentional, all these facts matter. And so your listeners are going to have to make that decision and don’t just believe me. Look at what I’m saying and then look at the research on Grace’s website. Everything I’m talking about now is under the tragedy tab, under Thou Shall Not Kill and I have a slide called Grace’s Last Day. It’s all documented there. This is straight out of the records.

Then Jess says to this 14-year ICU nurse that she must take a shower. And she says, you can’t take a shower here. So when I was there, they insisted and I leave. There’s a shower right in the room. And they said you can’t take a shower here. Jess was afraid to not obey because I was kicked out. She doesn’t want to be kicked out. So she goes home and takes a shower. She was back inside an hour. When she comes back, she started going up. She overhears the doctor and the 14-year ICU nurse talking in the hallway, saying the family’s not going to like this. So she said, “what are they not going to like?” They said, “we had to restrain Grace, while you’re gone.” So she said, “what’s the reason?” So restrain, meaning to strap Grace right down to the bed. So she said, “what’s the reason?” “Well, she wanted to get up and go to the bathroom.” So they made Grace poop in the bed while Jess was gone. So just process this.

One of the attorneys we work with he said, “Scott, do you think that you would have been restrained?” I said, “absolutely not. I would have made the nurses do their job.” But Grace was an obedient kid. She was the greatest kid you could ever have. So one of the people who interviewed me when they heard this, they just said, Grace died a murderous death. I think she did die a murderous death. She was obedient until death, just like Jesus was on the cross. But, of course, it wasn’t as dramatic as Jesus’ death. Just think through. She was just obedient.

So now, they use that as an excuse to ratchet up the Precedex further than instead of waiting for Grace’s numbers to rebound. Now, they insert the feeding tube and this is over. The attending nurse challenged the ICU nurse, I don’t think we should be doing this now. We should wait for Grace’s numbers to rebound. She wouldn’t listen. So they do that. They do the feeding tube next and now they take the Precedex up to max dose. This is at 10:48 in the morning, and Grace was in the max dose of Precedex. This is the equivalent of being knocked out for surgery. Grace was knocked out. For the rest of the day, she was knocked out. Inspite of Grace being knocked out, at 11:25, they gave her a dose of Lorazepam, which an anti-anxiety med. At 5:46, they gave her another dose, and at 5:49, another dose three minutes later. At 6:15, they gave her Morphine as an IV push, which means instantaneously. The package insert for Morphine says to not combine those meds. She’s on a max dose of Precedex, two doses of Lorazepam, and Morphine, all in 29 minutes.


[01:19:46] Ashley James: What was the reason behind Morphine? Was she in pain?


[01:19:51] Scott Schara: She wasn’t. How can you be in pain when you’re knocked out? 


[01:19:55] Ashley James: Exactly.


[01:19:57] Scott Schara: She’s not in any pain.


[01:19:59] Ashley James: I’ve been wanting to mention this. And so I think this is actually the most appropriate time. For me, it’s a common knowledge in Canada, but I wouldn’t say everyone in Canada knows this, but many do. In the Canadian medical system– so I’m from Canada and moved to the States when I was in my 20s. So I had enough experience with the medical system there. It’s very different and yet very similar. And the differences are it is for-profit and not it is to save money. So I just thought it was hilarious.

When I hurt my ankle, I was travelling in Nevada, and I tripped on a hose at a gas station and my ankle blew up to like the size of a softball, but I thought for sure I had broken my ankle. So I went to the hospital and I could hardly walk. And I could not believe the amount of X-rays they took. I was like are you kidding me? I think they took 20 X-rays. You don’t need that many X-rays, and it hit me. This is for America’s profit system. In Canada, I never got more than two X-rays. I broke an ankle doing sports when I was 12 and actually was the growth plate in my ankle and I fractured it. I remember two X-rays and that’s all you get.

The system in Canada is about saving money. Right? So how much money can we save with each patient? Not spend on each patient. They don’t just like offer you drugs willy-nilly. It’s different. When I came to the States, all of a sudden the doctors were offering me pain meds because I said I had cramps. When I had my period and I’m like, no, I don’t need prescription medication. That’s crazy. Whereas in Canada, a doctor would never have done that. So very, very different experiences in terms of like show me the money, follow the money.

It is common knowledge that they use Morphine to speed up the process of death in Canada. It’s an unwritten rule when someone is in Palliative Care Hospice, and they’re sleeping away at the end of their life. So let’s make it that nurses, and it’s their mercy. It’s their mercy that they would, or the doctors would give them little or doses of Morphine to gently speed up the process of death, and that’s what they did to my mom.

I didn’t know, I didn’t understand this at the time and since I’ve talked to many others and this is just a common practice. Maybe it’s a common practice here in the States. They use IV morphine just to speed up death. I’m kinda doing air quotes as you can’t see it obviously, I’m doing air quotes, in a humanitarian way just to speed up death. Maybe some people would appreciate that knock me out and fill me out with so many pain meds and I croak.

If someone’s at the end of their life from a terminal illness, that’s what they do in Canada. They did that to my mom. I watched them do it and she was in a coma at the end of her life. And  they’re like— okay, we just going to keep increasing the Morphine. So they told me, and the nurse told me we’re going to keep increasing it and help her transition faster in a more peaceful way.


[01:23:25] Scott Schara: In Grace’s case, I have become convinced that it wasn’t to transition in a more peaceful way. It was transition to transition period because they had a higher pain patient waiting for them in the emergency room. The hospital was at max capacity the day Grace died, and so was the emergency room. Then since, we didn’t approve the ventilator, they had to figure out a different way to take her out. How can you go from 98-99% oxygen saturation, and doing good? And even so much so that the doctor comments on it, to be dead less than 12 hours later.

It gets substantially worse as we keep going. So now, Jessica, remember she’s in the room. The package insert for Morphine says to not combine these drugs because it causes death. Similarly, the package insert says that the reversal drug is supposed to be bedside and they’re supposed to monitor the patient. After they gave this dose of Morphine, not one medical professional stepped in that room. They didn’t monitor the patient. They didn’t have the reversal drug bedside. They didn’t step in the room until they called Grace’s death.

So Jess is now in the room alone with Grace the entire time. She’s sensing Grace is getting cold. So she goes to the hallway to ask the 14-year ICU nurse. “Is this normal?” Because she wanted to have her take her temperature, she said, “yes, it’s normal, just cover with a blanket.”


[01:24:58] Ashley James: So she had a maximum dose of a sedative?


[01:25:04] Scott Schara: Yes.


[01:25:05] Ashley James: So she’s already out cold, she’s asleep, and she’s completely sedated. Then they begin to give her several doses of anxiety meds. Which is like why? And then they give her an IV Morphine on top of that, all within a matter of minutes. Is it like one doctor, or they’re like a bunch of doctors not looking at her chart doing whatever they want?


[01:25:25] Scott Schara: Well, we’ve learned subsequently that not only did a doctor have to order that, but a second doctor had to signed off. And on top of that, their alarm system in their computer, when they’d have the combination of meds, would have went off, and they would have had to override the alarm. Then a 14-year ICU nurse is the one who deliver the meds. So you put that combination together. The doctor who helped us review the records, she went right to intent right away, and she said it’s not even a question. This is intentional. The intensivist who reviewed the records and that intensivist is a doctor who specializes in med combinations. It took him minutes to discern and he wrote me that the meds that killed your daughter is sort of taken out of anybody on the planet. So that’s how severe this is.


[01:26:14] Ashley James: How much does your daughter weigh?


[01:26:15] Scott Schara: She weighs about 180 pounds.


[01:26:17] Ashley James: Okay, in the dosages that they gave, did they give it based on her weight?


[01:26:24] Scott Schara: I can’t answer that. 


[01:57:26] Ashley James: Okay.


[00:57:27] Scott Schara: Right now, I would question if anything was thought through that way because, I would say, it sounded so crazy, but it’s not crazy anymore. I’m going to use that word on this podcast. I would say it’s malicious. I can’t even entertain a logical question like that because none of these fits.


[01:26:55] Ashley James: None of it fits


[01:26:57] Ashley James: Intentionally, in the United States, in the hospital system, there’s no protocol for treating COVID and they’re not allowed to treat. They’re not allowed to treat with certain medications like Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, Z-packs. They’re still certain things that they’re being pressured not to use, although like I had Dr. Fleming on my show who’s a PhD, an amazing cardiologist, whose also a research scientist. He developed the Fleming method.

Please listeners, go to my website,, type in Dr. Fleming. Find that interview and listen to it. It’s outstanding. He doesn’t know anything about holistic medicine. It’s very rare, I get something on the show that doesn’t know anything but holistic medicine. He’s 100% all about the science and he’s not anti-vaccine. He’s one of those doctors that got all of them except for the experimental ones because he shows and he has a four-hour lecture on his website, which is outstanding. He shows all the science. He had to go to different countries. So he’s a research scientist. He could not study COVID in the United States because it was banned to study a cure. This is how crazy it is. So he had to go to other countries to study the cure or the best treatment. And he did a study on 1800 COVID-positive patients and he found a combination of drugs that had 100% success. So he says, we put a million people through it, maybe a few will fall through the cracks. But so far, they’ve had a 100% success rate with this combination of three drugs, but the hospitals are not using those three drugs. They’re being told not to. So instead, they’re moving towards using what they’re monetarily incentivized to use, which is having the worst outcomes.


[01:29:02] Scott Schara: Absolutely. The next piece of this story is even worse than what I told you so far. So now, Jessica starts panicking. She can’t get any nurse in. She called Cindy, and I on a FaceTime call at 7:20 and said, “Dad, Grace’s numbers are dropping like crazy.” I said, “get the nurses in.” She said, “I can’t, and they won’t come in.” She estimated that 30 nurses are in the hallway at this time because of shift change. Cindy and I started screaming through the FaceTime call. “Save our daughter!” The nurses holler back. “She’s DNR! Don’t resuscitate.” This is the first we knew that she’s DNR. So we holler back. “She’s not DNR! Save our daughter!” They would not come into that room. So we watch Grace die on that FaceTime call at 7:27. This DNR thing is so bad. We found out in our references medical malpractice nurse previously when she reviewed the records that we had requested. She told me, “Scott, there’s at least a thousand pages missing.” I said, “How can that be? We requested everything.” She said, “That’s how what they do.” So she helped write out a request to get the missing pages. There was 948 pages missing. On page 853 is the smoking gun. At 10:56 in the morning, remember I told you at 10:48 was max dose Precedex. Then, at 10:56, the doctor put the illegal DNR order in the computer. During this time, that’s seven minutes when we were on a FaceTime call with Jess. She ran out on the hall to find out what was going on. A nurse had to write up on her computer screen and read off. The doctor put a DNR on Grace, and we can’t do anything about it. That specific fact violated at least seven state statutes. Just common sense would tell you a doctor can’t put a DNR on somebody. That would be illegal. It is illegal. The patient or the patient advocate, which was my wife Cindy, has to request for DNR. But we never requested the DNR. Why would we request the DNR? He tells us how great Grace is doing. We expected Grace to get out of there and not die there. Then he’s supposed to explain it to us and then have us, it would be my wife Cindy come and sign the DNR order, none of that happened. He put it on or her or himself. What’s the coincidence of eight minutes after the max dose Precedex? One of the attorneys made the observation which I think is true. They expected the Precedex to take Grace out. So they needed to have that DNR order in place to accomplish the dirty deed that they intended to do.

What’s even stranger is that at 12:57 that afternoon, the doctor did his notes for the day. He never did them at 12:57 in the afternoon before. Every other day, he did them after his shift was over. These notes are dated and timestamped. So the medical malpractice nurse wisely pointed out that if it was such an issue to get this DNR, that this was important, and you guys agreed to it or whatever excuse they’re going to use. Why he didn’t have you guys come in and sign it? Because that’s required by law.


[01:32:35] Ashley James: Yeah,  there’s a signature.


[01:32:38] Scott Schara: So, it’s terrible. We find out then when a couple of things happen after Grace died which really helped us to get a sense that this was something we needed to look into and research on our own. One thing was Jess told us afterward that there was an armed guard outside the room. When she went out in the hallway, there was an armed guard. We presume, to prevent any nurse with a conscience from coming in and saving Grace. We know it was an anomaly that he was there because Jess laid down in the bed with Grace after she was pronounced dead. 

And the armed guard stood outside and watched Jess in the bed the whole time. Jess stayed in the bed and waited until Cindy got into the hospital. I took Cindy into the hospital afterward, obviously after Grace died. Then after Cindy and Jess cleaned Grace up, I had to wait in the truck because I had COVID. Our Pastor Matt is there. The funeral director and the Pastor was walking Cindy out in a wheelchair. And one of the nurses had Grace’s belongings on a cart and leaned down and said to Cindy, me and several of the other nurses don’t think that Grace should have died today?


[01:34:58] Ashley James: The armed guard that had you, had they escorted you?


[01:34:03] Scott Schara: I don’t know if it was the same one.


[01:34:05] Ashley James: No, no, I was going to say, he knew something was up?


[01:34:09] Scott Schara:  Absolutely.


[01:34:12] Ashley James: How much money this hospital or a hospital get from having a patient on their death certificate that says it died out of COVID? How much money do they get in subsidies from the government?


[01:34:28] Scott Schara: It’s $13000.


[01:34:31] Ashley James: Your daughter’s life. There’s no child’s life that’s worth any amount of money. Do you feel there’s any discrimination against her because she has Down Syndrome? Do you feel like this is a discriminatory act?


[01:34:52] Scott Schara: I do. I do believe that and I have some proof. I actually have multiple things. So the first one is I review all of the reports that the doctors submitted. There were 22 reports on Grace’s seven days in the hospital. And I reviewed those one Sunday morning, looking for Down Syndrome and they referenced the fact that Grace had Down Syndrome 36 different times in 22 reports. The other discrimination was they referenced that Grace was not vaccinated six times. They referenced that we were Christian three times. They referenced that we were found in the frontline doctor’s misinformation campaign four times. So this is all the stuff that I found in the research.

The most recent thing is I’ve done stirred to looking at Grace’s death as genocide. The statistics are starting to come out with what actually happened to disabled versus non-disabled, the elderly, the non-elderly and a disabled woman going into the hospital with COVID, and also Grace was disabled, a Down Syndrome is a disability, and a disabled woman is 11 times more likely to die if they entered the hospital with COVID than a non-disabled woman.


[01:36:18] Ashley James: I’ve also seen that those African Americans are treated differently. African American women are specially treated differently. They’re not listened to. They’re written officer, oh, that she’s hysterical, their symptoms and what they’re explaining, I mean, this is in every case but statistically, there’s a bias going on. It’s not the same level of care for everyone.


[01:36:52] Scott Schara: I agree 100%. This is when the lead could get completely taken off of this as if we have enough time. I think, we’re going to see this is all part of a bigger agenda to depopulate the world and just had a financial payoff. In the United States, the financial payoff is to take out the elderly and the disabled. The elderly and disabled on Medicaid and Medicare are also on social security, that accounts for 39% of the federal budget. So with the average $100,000 bonus paid to the hospital, take out one of these people that costs the taxpayer $32,000 a year. So there’s a three-year payback period in business. Anytime you could do a three-year payback period on any asset, you would do it. You’d buy it because you want your money back in three years. So that’s a 33% rate of return on your investment. Just from a financial perspective, this fits like a glove.


[01:37:55] Ashley James: I know that there’s definitely listeners are going, this is crazy. The government isn’t bad. The government wouldn’t intentionally harm us. Maybe the source of thinking, yes, okay, this brat hospital was mismanaging her care, but the government, that’s not some giant conspiracy. That’s absurd. When we have to look back at history, I don’t want to pick on just the United States. I love living here. I love this country. There’s so many good people here. There’s so many good.

Can you think of any other country in the world that was founded on the Christian values? What I just learned, which is so interesting, when the pilgrims came. The Mayflower was the first round of pilgrims, for the first 50 years, there was no war. There’s peace. They got along incredibly well with those who were already here. And they had peace for the first 50 years, and that’s something that is not taught.

If you go back and you dig through the actual history, you find out that those people who were actually radicals. They left their Christian church because they were radicals who believed in the Holy Spirit, and they believed within the Holy Spirit, sort of what’s Pentecostal now. They’re like the Pentecostals of the 1600s. I think it was 1620 or something like. So when they came here, the first 50 years was peace. I was watching them. I was doing a lecture on understanding of America’s history and in Christianity. It was really interesting.

So there’s a lot of misinformation when it comes to this country and history. But when we look back, the government took African Americans and said they would give them free health care. But instead, what they were doing was they were giving them a venereal disease. So they could observe how they died from this disease. And this is well documented. What’s also well documented is this government, it’s not the same people, but when I say this government, it’s not the same officials, it’s not the same people, but it’s the system. So the system isn’t perfect, and within the system, we have lied to and harmed the black community by purposely giving them venereal disease.

Then we took Indigenous women, and we would say, we’re giving them free health care instead, we would make them infertile by putting X-ray machines on their pelvises for 10 minutes, running for 10 minutes to make them infertile. These are just some of the examples of the things that have gone on within the government over the last 100 years or so.

So now, the military took– and again, I’m not bashing the entire system, but we have to sort of pull the wool from our eyes. The military took hundreds of young, beautiful men and put them on the bow of these giant ships, brought them out into the middle of the ocean and set off nuclear bombs, atom bombs, miles from where they were, as a science experiment. So that they could see what would happen to these men, who all develop cancer and horrible things, and post-traumatic stress. They said, that although their eyes were closed, their hands–they were told to sit on the bows with their hands over their eyes and they said, when the atom bomb went off, they could see even though their eyes were closed and their hands over their eyes, they could see because of the X-rays. They could see the bones of their hands, and we could see everyone else’s skeletons.

So these are just three examples of hundreds. I believe there’s good people in this world. I’m not saying that everyone was out to get us. When you actually look at the definition of conspiracy, it’s a group of people that are conspiring to do something that’s illegal, or elicit, or harmful. So, when we say that this is a conspiracy theory, it’s not a theory, these are actual recorded periods of history. We need to not repeat the history. We need not let history be repeated. We need to stop organizations that use us as guinea pigs or practice genocide for the profit. We need as individuals empower ourselves by listening to stories like yours and learn from Grace and learn what she went through and pass this information on and be an advocate for your family and for your friends. So you do not succumb to the medical system, which is not perfect and it’s designed for profit. Again, I believe there’s a good people in the medical system. But the system is designed for profit, even at the expense of your life. And that’s what we have to remember. And the takeaway here is to question everything, advocate, advocate, advocate. And if there’s red flags, you might need to fire your doctor. You might need to go get a second or third, or fourth opinion. Make sure those opinions are outside of the same—like if you’re going in a hospital, okay, can I have a second opinion on a different doctor of the same hospital in the same network? You need to go outside the network. You need to go to a completely different network to get an actual honest, maybe an honest opinion.

Robin Openshaw has been on my show. I’ve been on her. She’s a wonderful, outspoken advocate for hope not only holistic health but for human rights. In the last two years, for really understanding the politics of what’s going on, and she said, she has uncovered scams in dental as an example. When she dug deep, she found that dentists will regularly, not all of them but many, will say you have a cavity when you don’t. You’re a cash cow. You’re in there. How do you know? You’re looking at a screen. They’re pointing at something on-screen and saying that’s a cavity. And you have to go to a second opinion. Take your mouth to a different dentist and say, okay, do I have any cavities? You might need to go to a few different dentists.

And she says, when she’s heard back from so many people that have done this, she couldn’t believe how many dentists were trying to scam them and this is just dental work. Imagine,all the other forms of– they have both payments too. This isn’t life or death, but this is just an example. Money motivates people. If there’s money involved, and then if there’s livelihood involved, they might choose to do the wrong thing. Right? So we have to really advocate for ourselves.

There’s one more thing I want to bring up because it’s timed. One thing I love about America—there’s so many things, but there’s one thing I love is that we can go to the state that has our values. If you don’t like the state you’re in, you can go to a different state. Each governor’s or manages like a little island, each state serves its own country in that. So the governor could say, let’s say pandemic, and you love masks, and you want everyone to be vaccinated. You should have gone to New York, or Washington, or California. Right?

But if you’re the opposite, I think masks are dumb. I can’t wear them for whatever reason. I’m never going to submit myself to an experimental vaccine. You should have gone to Florida or Texas. So we just knew and we just saw this very clear that these last two years had never seen it so clearly before. It really matters who was in the governor’s seat because here in Washington State, Governor Inslee shut down our state so many times for so long that almost half of the small businesses went under. I cannot tell you how many restaurants and how many businesses are shut down permanently.

Overnight, it was something like 40,000 people went on unemployment. Now the numbers are out and it shows that you could compare every state to the state that did no shutdowns to the states that had the most shutdowns. The states that had mandates to the states that had no mandates. We have the same level of cases. We can’t really tell whether the fatalities are accurate. Like what you’ve said, someone can go in and they’re incentivized that write on the death certificate that it is COVID. So both the same amount of cases are reported from state to state. So it was a big experiment. Right? What I really love about the state is that you can go to a different state. If you’re like, hey, I don’t want to live in a state that it’s forcing my family to do a medical procedure that I don’t feel comfortable with. Right? So you can go to that state that you could move. It’s about people, but you could move where you have a choice. The choice is the freedom.

What’s happening this week, it’s very crucial. I’m going to publish this episode right away. I’m going to have the links in the show notes because I’m not going to explain it. I’m not going to give the level of explanation it deserves. But President Biden is right now signing into with the World Health Organization, which is like an arm of the UN. Right? He is signing so that he’s giving our sovereign medical freedom, medical choices over to the World Health Organization. It’s not a treaty. But many other countries, the big countries, the top, and known countries have signed it. This is a weird thing. Once we’ve signed it, the only way to get out is to let the countries agree. And basically, what’s happening is it doesn’t matter what state you go to. It’ll be federal.

If America signs this, if Joe Biden signs us into this, the World Health Organization will be able to control all health decisions in all states. They could say every single vaccine is mandated. You can’t even go to the grocery store without having all your papers. The World Health Organization could say that. It would be in law, and it wouldn’t matter what state we are in. This is something that sounds so bizarre. I’m sure people think I’m absolutely nuts, and I’m just the messenger. But I’ve learned this from several politicians that this is happening. So I have links to this and I’m going to put them in the notes. The only thing we can do is call our local representatives and all the links to that will be in the show notes of today’s podcast called A Local Reps and tell them we’ve got to go up the chain and say no. We need to protect our freedom to choose. I’m not saying you should be anti or force something. I want you to have the freedom to choose. Scott, I want you and everyone in America, and in the world– but we’re in America we’re talking about– I want everyone to have the freedom to be able to say I didn’t like this hospital. I’m going to a different hospital because a different hospital practices medicine differently. Under this, we will not have a choice. These hospitals will be not have a choice to practice differently. So this is a big deal.


[01:50:44] Scott Schara: I saw that in Steve Castor’s newsletter last week. It is a big deal to our church.


[01:50:50] Ashley James: Yes. I will make sure that the links– everyone listening need just to take five minutes. We need to write and call our elected officials, and we’ve got to cry out to try to stop this. And also, please, if you’re a follower of Jesus or a faith that believes in prayer to God, please pray over this. That we do not succumb to signing over our sovereignty to the UN and the World Health Organization. We need to keep our freedoms. This is unprecedented and it’s never happened in America. This is completely unprecedented that America would give over its sovereignty. It boggles my mind what’s been going on over the last two years.

We have to get back to you. I love Scott that you are getting active, that you’re sharing, and advocating because the information you share today will save lives. So thank you. Is there anything else you could share to wrap up today’s interview? Standing assurance to teach us how to be the most alert, watchful advocates that we can be for ourselves or for our loved ones.


[01:52:12] Scott Schara: Sure. How I would summarize? It would be to compare it to what we are becoming familiar with in the public school system. So I was born in 1963. So people my age who went through the public school system everybody believed in God. We did the pledge of allegiance. It was pretty normal, and now they’re teaching critical race theory. So my paradigm of a public school system has changed. So, I would not send the child to the public school system, period.


[01:52:52] Ashley James: In Washington State, they’re teaching Sex Ed. I believe in Sex Ed for like teenagers. To teach them like, “Hey, how about you abstain from having sex because that’s going to stop. If you don’t have sex, you’re not going to get STDs!” “You’re not going to have unwanted pregnancies!” I remember being taught, starting in grade seven and being taught how to have sex? What’s the penis? What’s the female reproductive system? What’s the male reproductive system? How does this all happen? How does babies happen? How does STDs happen? I remember being taught from grade seven all the way up. I also remember a few students opting out because they were Muslim or they had a different faith. The parents felt that their 13-year-old shouldn’t be learning this.

I think, I was grateful for the Sex Ed I got in high school because it taught and helped me make good decisions. We want to help teenagers make good decisions. What they’re doing now is they’re teaching it in Washington State, and they started in pre-kindergarten. They’re starting to teach children– I’m sorry to be crass– but how to pleasure themselves by touching themselves at a very young age. There’s pictures like the fourth graders are being shown how to do this to themselves and others– and it’s grooming! This level of education, we have a literacy problem, right? We don’t need to teach children how to touch themselves. I like to teach children how to stop adults from touching them. Right? Like no, you’re not allowed to touch or my bathing suit touches me, right?

I want to teach children to say no, but teach children how to read and write. So we have a huge literacy problem and yet in Washington State, there’s a lot of funding going into this new level of sex education in the public school system. I’ve talked to several parents who have shown me the literature as it’s in the school system. It would make your blood boil and freeze at the same time. It feels like grooming. We have to remember the public school system is government controlled essentially.

Read any of the books by John Taylor Gatto. One of his books is Weapons of Mass Instruction. Fascinating books explain the history of the modern education system, which is called the Prussian Education System. It was very intentionally designed to make good little factory workers. They on purpose to stop teaching, the critical thinking in the education system that we have now on purpose. So the education system is designed on purpose to shape and model citizens in the way the government wants us to be shaped and modeled. So we have to remember that.

I’m sorry for interrupting and going on my little tangent, but this is something that is really we started to see ramp up. It’s breaking the family unit apart with the public school system is doing now. It shouldn’t be called a public school. It should be called government schooling, government brainwashing.



[01:56:14] Scott Schara: Of course, right on to the point. So my paradigm of the public school system has completely changed and I think there’s a lot of people that’s happened to. My paradigm of the hospital system didn’t change fast enough. Of course, it’s changed now. Until your paradigm or your belief about something changes, there can’t be change in actions because beliefs motivate all actions. So my closing statement would be if you believe what I’m saying, that should cause you to change your belief relative to the hospital systems. If that changes your belief, it’ll save your life.


[01:56:54] Ashley James: And there’s times when we want to take our bodies, or a loved one’s body takes us into a hospital system and we should be prepared ahead of time. Like you said, do the research around local hospitals. Find the ones that are small networks that have the best outcomes. Don’t go to a doctor that’s “the top doctor in the state” or “the top doctor in the city”.

What I learned from one of my naturopathic mentors is he said, “you know that big billboard that has this picture of this oncologist and it says, top oncologist in Seattle or top oncologist in Washington State, you know how they measure that? Because I thought it was an outcome.” So I was like, oh, that oncologist must be amazing and helping people survive cancer. No! When they say top doctor, it is the doctor makes that hospital the most money. They build the most money, that’s what makes them the top-rated doctor. It’s not be rated in outcomes. So you don’t want to go to the top-rated doctor because they’re just going to put you through the wringer. They’re going to put unnecessary tests and unnecessary medications, and attempt to make more money. You really have to question that, you want to go to the doctor who has the best outcomes and long-term outcomes as well. 

Scott, thank you so much for what you do. Thank you for continuing to add to your website, So, are you suing? What are we looking at in terms of legal outcomes?


[01:58:31] Scott Schara: We haven’t sued yet. The doors are opening up at a fairly rapid pace. I can’t talk about some of the things that are happening just because we’re at that point. So I would believe that’s going to happen. Time will tell. It’s a lawsuit. It’s very tough in this environment because there’s no immunity from liability under the prep act. But we have enough things in Grace’s case that we believe will prevail. But we’re just waiting patiently for these doors to open up.


[01:59:06] Ashley James: Hopefully, you don’t get a corrupt judge. That’s another thing. How far does this go, right? Would you close this interview off with a prayer for all of us?


[01:59:20] Scott Schara: I’d love to do that. Heavenly Father, we come to You knowing that you don’t change. We can always come to You with our problems, and You will always provide a steady rocking solution for us. Thank You for opening up our eyes and to shine light on evil. Thank You for the opportunity today for Ashley’s interview. Please help this time to be able to change people’s hearts to call. You want everybody to be called back to You and get closer to You. I hope that this time that we have just done will do that for everybody listening and that people will share the message so that we can have more people believe in Your Son Jesus Christ. I pray all these things and many more things Lord, in Your Name. Amen.


[02:00:30] Ashley James: Amen. And I pray that we put the armor of God on and the robes of faith, and that we look to truth, veritas, we look to truth, we listen for truth, and that we can see through the lies. Satan is the king of lies and he spreads lies and that is his work. He works for his lies. I pray that we can all see through the lies and hear through the lies and cut through like a flaming sword. We cut through the lies until we can see the truth and that the truth is exposed to everyone. Thank you, God. In Jesus’ Name, we pray. Amen.


[02:01:18] Scott Schara: Amen. Thank you, Ashley.


[02:01:20] Ashley James: Thank you, Scott. I appreciate everything you do. Keep up the fight. And please can you stay in touch with us or come back on the show when you’ve got a verdict and when you’ve got more to share? We want to hear your story as you continue to spread this ripple like a tidal wave and help save so many lives. So thank you.


[02:01:46] Scott Schara: You’re very welcome. 


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Ashley James & Dr. Nathan Bryan


  • The importance of nitric oxide in our body
  • What is Nitric Oxide Deficiency and its causes
  • What is nitric oxide’s role in our heart health?
  • Why mouthwash could raise the risk of heart disease?
  • How does face cream increase nitric oxide production?
  • What are the two main signs of toxicity of nitric oxide?

Nitric oxide is one of the most important molecules produced in the human body that controls and regulates most cellular functions. In this episode, Dr. Nathan Bryan shares how nitric oxide helps promote proper blood flow, which may improve exercise performance, lower blood pressure, and improve the function of the brain.


Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. So this is going to be a fun one. We have an amazing doctor on, Dr. Nathan Bryan. He’s over 20 years of experience in studying nitric oxide. I first heard about nitric oxide in my interview with Dr. Essylstyn. When he talks about how he took– I believe 24, 26 patients who are on their deathbeds. The cardiologist said we’ve given you everything, go home to die. There’s nothing we can do for you. Your heart disease is so far gone. Your moments away from death. And Dr. Esselstyn took these people and put them on a whole food plant-based diet. So put them on food that significantly increased the body’s nitric oxide, and they all bounced back. It was absolutely amazing. And of course, he went on to publish this and publish other studies and then write his book, How to Reverse and Prevent Heart Disease. 

So when I heard about how he uses certain foods, like leafy greens and balsamic. And you can do some really delicious things or some really delicious balsamic stuff out there. I particularly love this one balsamic and I’m not a fan of that strong vinegar taste but this balsamic doesn’t taste like that at all. It has a hint of maple and fig to it and it’s so delicious. And you use that to cover your cooked vegetables and your steamed vegetables, which increases nitric oxide. And there are other foods we’ll talk about in today’s interview, where you will learn how to increase nitric oxide naturally in the body. And why it is the key to preventing and reversing disease and anti-aging. 

Now Dr. Nathan Bryan just talks about a product he developed and did. And also developed a few pharmaceuticals that increase nitric oxide that has now, they’re doing studies, they’re doing trials, and they’ve saved people’s lives in ER. So that is very exciting. Of course, we want to prevent ourselves from ever needing to be in the ER in the first place by increasing nitric oxide naturally. He also developed a way supplement that can help you as well. And he talks about that. He also developed a really interesting skincare line because nitric oxide would put on the skin. It cures things like rosacea and fine lines and wrinkles and helps pushes oxygen into these newly constructed cells. Then they appear younger and healthier and healthier. 

And I had this rosacea. My grandmother had it. My mom had some. I always thought it was just part of the women in my family. I’ve been using the cream and so I love it. It’s very high quality and I really like it. So I’m noticing that my rosacea is starting to get better, which I thought was really interesting. So I am noticing now that I’m eating more foods with nitric oxide and knowing I’ve got more energy. This is great. I can’t wait to put it to the test and do some heavy hiking this summer. 

But what I have noticed by using his products since I did the interview is I have seen a difference and that’s really exciting. And he does say some things that I think are really important to take the heart and share with everyone you love, especially when he talks about certain habits that we have that can decrease your nitric oxide so much that they’re significantly important in increasing heart disease. So we want to make sure that none of our friends and family are doing these activities that are noted to decrease nitric oxide in the body, increase heart disease, and shorten people’s lifespan. So this will be an episode you want to share with everyone. I’ve already told so many of my friends. I can’t wait for you guys to listen to this episode because if you follow the simple tools he gives you today. The simple lifestyle habits that he gives you today. You’re going to increase the nitric oxide and substantially increase the quality and your life as a result. So definitely want to share this with your friends and family. 

Thank you so much for being a listener of the show and if you’re interested in getting any of his products, including his book, Dr. Nathan Bryan’s book. You will go to his website, which is It’s a chemical formula for nitric oxide. So that’s N, in the letter N, one, the number one and then the letter O, the number And of course, use the coupon code LTH, that’s Learn True Health code. LTH will give you a discount. I made sure that my wonderful listeners were going to get a great discount when they went to the website by Dr. Nathan Bryan’s book. Or his nitric oxide-based skincare line or his special supplement, which increases nitric oxide in the body. And of course, the links to everything that Dr. Nathan Bryan does is going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast on So come and join the Facebook group so we can talk about all this stuff after you listen to the episode. I can’t wait to hear from you guys in the Learn True Health Facebook group. And I’m so grateful that we’re here today. To be able to learn together and grow together. So we’re on a health journey together on Learn True Health. I’m glad you’re here. Have yourself a fantastic rest of your day. And enjoy today’s interview.

[00:05:37] Ashley James:  Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 478. I am so excited for today’s guest. This topic is going to be so cool. I love geeking out with the science. Dr. Nathan Bryan, I know I just got introduced to you recently and I’m surprised I haven’t heard of you sooner because we can navigate the same circles. I’ve had Chef AJ on the show a few times, and I absolutely love her. She introduced you to me. And man, I’m thrilled to just dive into what you’re doing, especially this idea that we can heal the endothelial lining of our cardiovascular system and lower blood pressure naturally. 

My husband had to be at one point in his life. He had to be on blood pressure meds. It was considered that we go to a naturopathic physician and do all this healthy stuff. It was kind of a shock. He had chronic blood pressure problems his whole life and we finally addressed it and his doctor listened. You’ve tried all this other stuff and let’s get you on meds. And that’s only lowered at about eight points. Like it wasn’t anything substantial yet. All these side effects happen, lowering your life expectancy the more meds you’re on. So, I don’t know if that’s exactly direct causation. I know that medication makes the body have to burn through its nutrient store faster. So it burdens the body to have to metabolize drugs. So, there’s this give and take. Here we have a population; 1/3 of the population is obese, pre-diabetic, or diabetic. 

Heart disease is one of the top killers, along with cancer. And, of course, the statistics now cancer is on the rise. And so we have the roulette of what you want to suffer from the last 20 years of your life. Diabetes, cancer, heart disease, but that’s if we go with the flow. If we eat the standard American diet, we watch mainstream media and do what everyone else is doing. So we follow Hollywood basically and follow the mainstream media diet and agenda. So we do what everyone else is doing. Go to the doctor, just let her prescriptions at you. And if you just go with the flow, you’re guaranteed to be a statistic. So now you’re going against the green and figured out a way to help people lower blood pressure naturally. So to heal their heart and prevent disease in a really exciting way. I’m just bubbling. I’m so excited. Welcome to the show. I can’t wait for our listeners to learn how we can take control of our health with the latest science that you’re involved in. So welcome.


[00:08:37] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Thank you Ashley. It’s a pleasure to be with you. 


[00:08:39] Ashley James: Absolutely. Well let’s start by hearing about you, your story and what led you to decipher this information.


[00:08:47] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Well, it’s like a journey, right? So I think the longer I lived, the clearer the more I realized how little influence I had. I think God puts people in our lives at certain points and forces us to pivot. We have some of the grand plans when we’re early starting in our careers. So it’s not where we end up. I live up with no regrets and everything that’s happened, the good and the bad, that got us to where we are today. But I grew up in small-town Texas and went to the University of Texas at Austin, where I got a degree in ministry. I had an opportunity to do undergraduate research there and I fell in love with discovery. I mean that was a time in the early 90s when we were overexpressing protein and bacteria. And then isolating those proteins, then being able to do structure-function analysis. So I try to figure out how does an intact protein work and what goes wrong in certain diseases. 

So then, after a degree in biochemistry, I do a bachelor’s degree in biochemistry in the job market, isn’t that great? So I knew I had to go on and extend my education. I went to LSU School of Medicine, where I got a Ph.D. in Molecular Cellular Physiology. There I was introduced to nitric oxide. It was a little early 2000s, right after a Nobel Prize was awarded for its discovery. And so that’s when I just really got entrenched in the science of nitric oxide. We knew it was important, but at that time, there were no methods to detect nitric oxide in biological systems. It was really well known about the science of what goes wrong and people that can’t make it. What are the clinical symptoms of such and there certainly weren’t getting knowledge or science around any create or recreate nitric oxide in the human body? So that was an exciting time. We developed methods that allowed us to detect nitric oxide in biological samples, whether blood or tissue biopsies. I found a number or published a number of papers during that time and then left there. I went to the Boston University Medical Center in Boston at the Cardiovascular Institute. I had a fellowship in cardiology and vascular biology, and again, I had some pretty profound discoveries. And I made a name for myself as a young investigator. I was recruited to join the faculty at the University of Texas Medical School in Houston by Fred Murad, who was the department chair there. He was one of the gentlemen that shared the Nobel Prize. I found a home because it was a nitric oxide-centric department at the Institute of Molecular Medicine. 

For the first couple of years, all I did was do experiments and try to enable patents. At that point, we had enough information and the methods available that I could figure out and produce nitric oxide in biological systems. So for the first two years, I did nothing but experiments and patents to the University of Texas. Those patents were soon issued after that and then the next stage of my career was to make sure that discoveries and technology saw the light of day to retire from full-time academia in 2015. 

And I’ve been an entrepreneur since and on the number of companies commercializing nitric oxide technology. So my objective today is to introduce nitric oxide-based product technology and every major market segment around the world, including drug therapy, where we have drugs in phase three clinical trials for COVID. With some drug applications going in for ischemic heart disease and topical drugs for diabetic ulcers. The exciting thing is that nitric oxide does so much and is so important in human disease that there’s really no indication that we could not go after any type of drug therapy. So that’s kind of a 20-year story in that two minutes.


[00:12:58] Ashley James: Maybe we let’s back it up to the basics for someone who’s never heard of the term nitric oxide. Why is it so important? What is it do? Why is it so exciting that you’ve been able to figure out a way to increase it in the human body? 


[00:13:14] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Well, it was discovered about 30 years ago, so it’s still a new discovery in the medical sciences. But it’s a signaling molecule. It tells how cells in the body communicate with one another. It is mostly recognized as vasodilation, meaning that it dilates the blood vessels throughout the body and increases oxygen and nutrient delivery. But it’s a neurotransmitter in the central nervous system. Our immune cells actually generate nitric oxide to prevent the virus from replicating and proliferating throughout the body. It shuts down bacterial respiration. So it’s part of our host defense. Understanding that and all that nitric oxide does, it becomes obvious that if you lose the ability to produce nitric oxide, which occurs as we age and are really dependent upon like diet and lifestyle. A lot of bad things happen you lose the regulation of blood flow. You can no longer dilate blood vessels, so you develop sexual dysfunction. You develop vascular dementia develop high blood pressure, which two out of three Americans have an unsafe elevation and blood pressure. You develop them. You become immunocompromised. So if you’re exposed to a virus-like Coronavirus, or like the flu, you get sick from it and develop the neurological disease. 

I thought the science was very clear at the time that the older you get, the less nitric oxide you make. That is what’s responsible for the age-related disease, including cardiovascular disease, the number one killer of men and women worldwide. So that’s what science has told us over the past 20 years. That’s the missing part– the science is clear, but how do you fix it? And that’s been my contribution to the field because we figured out how to develop a shelf-stable, solid form with nitric oxide. And perhaps I’ll take a step back because maybe your listeners don’t realize that nitric oxide is a gas. So it is produced in the lining of the blood vessels. When this gas was produced, it was gone in less than a second. To be able to develop drug therapy or any type of product technology shelf-stable that recapitulates nitric oxide signaling in the human body has been very, very challenging. In fact, big pharmaceutical companies have tried to do this for the past 30 years. They’ve been largely unsuccessful. But through our research program and kind of thinking differently, thinking outside the box, we figured this out and they’ll have. So I think over two dozen issued patents claim to fame as we know how to make nitric oxide that’s extremely valuable and profound in the way that I think people are going to be healed over the next 40-50 years.


[00:16:00] Ashley James: The first time I heard about nitric oxide was when I interviewed Dr. Cadwell Esselstyn and I’m sure you know of his work. He’s also a friend of Chef AJ. He came on the show and explained that he takes people who are basically at death’s door. Their doctors have given up on them. They have multiple clogs in their heart. They’re even too sick for bypass surgery. The doctors say just go home and die. Unfortunately, when people usually find Cadwell Esselstyn and his book, How to Reverse and Prevent Heart Disease and he gets them on a whole food plant-based diet with no salt, sugar, and oil. Incredibly strict. He lately added a factor, which every few hours, like every four hours, he has the meat of a bowl of steamed greens, just any kind of leafy greens, like 12 of them. Pick a leafy green, steam it and then cover it in as much balsamic as you want. Any kind of balsamic. There are all kinds of flavors out there. And he says that balsamic vinegar and greens increase if, especially balsamic vinegar, it increases nitric oxide and helps heal the endothelial lining of the cardiovascular system. And I thought that was fascinating. 

And then I heard it again when I watched the movie, The Game Changers, where they follow these athletes like the Olympic athletes who have gotten plant-based. And there’s this one woman who was 29 or 30 years old. She beat people almost half her age and won the gold in cycling at an almost age of 30 which is like an 80-year-old beating a 40-year-old in a marathon, right? So she said that her biggest thing was beats– because before and after exercise would increase the nitric oxide and help with lactic acid clearance. She found her recovery to be faster and she had her endurance higher up just by eating whole food plant-based, avoiding salt, sugar, and oil, and making sure she’s getting enough beats and enough greens in her diet. 

So I hear that there are certain nutrients the body loves in order to make nitric oxide. You said that as we age, we make less. Is it because we’re age and we’re older like our telomeres are shorter or is it because as we age, we beat up our body so much, it’s like failing us and we’re not eating healthy, right? Eating enough nutrients like what is it about aging that has us make it less? And is it really about age? Or is it about lifestyle and diet?


[00:18:53] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Well, those are very good questions. And yes, I’m friends with Dr. Esselstyn and he made an enormous contribution to medicine. His observations are what led them through that being able to reverse heart disease. And it was our science that basically provided a mechanism for his observation. So to understand this age-related loss of nitric oxide production, there are two ways the body makes mycotoxin. The first one to be discovered was an enzyme called nitric oxide synthase. And that’s the enzyme that’s found in our endothelial cells. Like every second upon me, that’s what produces nitric oxide when you need to increase blood flow. For instance, if you’re trying to remember where you parked your car. Part of the memory recall is you got to increase blood flow to the prefrontal cortex to recall memory. If you can’t dilate the blood vessels to get improved blood flow and perfusion to that area, you develop cognitive disorders and become forgetful. Same thing if you want to perform sexually, you get to dilate those blood vessels to get engorged, and you get increased blood flow. You can’t make nitric oxide and you can’t. 

So that’s the pathway. This becomes more compromised the older we get. The biochemistry in the enzymology is well understood that it’s basically due to oxidation of a molecule called tetrahydrobiopterin or BH4 that leads to enzyme uncoupling and endothelial dysfunction. So that is what we lose with age. The other pathway that Dr. Esselstyn exploits is that you can use a diet thru green leafy vegetables, and then there’s a molecule called nitrate. It’s inorganic nitrate. It’s found primarily in dark green leafy vegetables. So when you consume those, about 90 minutes after you consume, let’s say spinach or beets or kale or any green leafy vegetable that is concentrated, that nitrate is taken up in our guts and put it in our salivary glands. 

This has been known since the late 70s. And then each time we salivate now for the next five or six hours, our secreting nitrate in our saliva, in our oral cavity. And then, under normal conditions, we have nitrate-reducing bacteria that live on the crypts of the tongue in our mouth. Then these bacteria reduce the nitrate to nitrite and nitric oxide. This happens for the next six or eight hours. When we swallow our own saliva, it’s enriched in nitrite. The nitrite becomes nitric oxide as long as there’s stomach acid being produced. So Dr. Esselstyn is very correct in the fact that if you eat green leafy vegetables and put balsamic vinegar, which is basically acetic acid. So you’re acidifying the lumen of the stomach to allow that nitric oxide being produced when it’s broken down by the bacteria and then digested in your stomach. So mechanistically, that’s how it’s designed to work. 

The problem is that if you’re using mouthwash to kill the bacteria in your mouth because of bad breath or just because of habit, then you disrupt this pathway. Or, if you’re using antacid to prevent stomach acid production, you shut down nitric oxide production. And this was really the epiphany when I first had a conversation with Dr. Esselstyn. Like with any clinician, you have patients who get better and you use the same protocol on another patient and don’t get better.

So why is it that one patient responds beautifully and the other patient doesn’t respond at all? The explanation for that is because Nathan goes and never asks my patients if they’re using mouthwash. I’ve never asked my patients that I put on a plant-based diet if they’re using acids because clearly, if they are on that plant-based diet, it’s not going to work for them because there’s no nitric oxide being produced by that plant-based diet. So that was the epiphany to him and I think to a lot of people, it’s because it’s the microbiome, right? A lot of people are focused on the microbiome of the gut and how important that is. There are very few people besides us who ever focused on the oral microbiome or if there’s dysbiosis in the gut. So you get symptoms and human disease if dysbiosis in the mouth becomes nitric oxide deficient. And there’s clear evidence now. We’ve published on a number of others that people who use mouthwash have a higher blood pressure than those who don’t. 

We’ve also published on the fact that if we take normal tensive healthy people and the only thing we do is we don’t change their diet, don’t change any other aspects of them. We just give them a mouthwash twice a day for seven days. In some patients, we see as much as a 26-millimeter increase in their blood pressure in one week. And that’s the effects on blood pressure. There’s also evidence now that if people use mouthwash and exercise, he loses the cardioprotective benefits of exercise. I mean, that is earth-shattering because for the most part, people try to do the right thing with good intentions. They exercise, they eat a plant-based diet, their dentist has told them at some point in life, that they should use mouthwash to keep gum disease and gingivitis away. So they use mouthwash. But yet, when they do that, they eliminate the benefits of their diets. They eliminate the benefits of exercise, and they’re basically putting themselves at risk for the advanced progression of cardiovascular disease. 

So 200 million Americans use mouthwash every day and 200 million Americans have an unsafe elevation of blood pressure. That’s not a coincidence. There’s a clear causal relationship between the oral bacterium and steady-state blood pressure. So if you’re using mouthwash, you have to stop.


[00:24:54] Ashley James: I want to back up and unpack that because I’m in shock and my listeners are too. So you said if you don’t have the microbiome in your mouth and you exercise, you’re losing the cardiovascular protection of nitric oxide. I’m a little confused, though. I thought you said that it was also produced in the endothelial lining. So, if you don’t have the bacteria in your mouth, does that mean your endothelial lining of the cardiovascular system doesn’t produce it or do you get less because the bacteria also produce it?


[00:25:33] Dr. Nathan Bryan: We thought early on, probably 15 years ago, these were two mutually exclusive events. So they were completely separated so one could compensate for the other. So that’s why young kids can get away with not eating a lot of vegetables or could die because they have good in the single function. And that endothelial functions are the nitric oxide is produced. The blood vessel lining can compensate and overcome a lack of a good die. But the older you get, we know that we get the less functional. Our endothelial becomes the less nitric oxide we make. So we have to compensate for that through the diet. But this evidence points to the fact that the benefits of exercise are improvement and endothelial function. But the issue is if you’re in moderately good shape and you begin to exercise, that creates some shear stress in that skeletal muscle, whether it’s in the legs if you’re running or biking or if it’s in the biceps if you’re doing curls. So the muscle tells, I need more oxygen and nutrients being delivered because you’re working me harder. So the only way to do that, especially in the heart, is to dilate the blood vessels production of nitric oxide. 

So if your body can make sufficient nitric oxide, it does. And then there’s an adaptive response where it actually improves the ability. So if you’re stressing your body and your body goes, I need to up my game because I need to be ready for the next stressful event. There’s an improvement in nitric oxide. The problem is when you have endothelial dysfunction, like older patients who have chest pain or shortness of breath. They go to a cardiologist, put them on a treadmill, and come up with some leads on EKG. As they increase the workload, and if the coronary arteries can’t produce nitric oxide to dilate the coronary arteries, then that heart becomes hypoxic because it can increase the oxygen delivery to meet the increased metabolic demand. So there are changes in electrical activity. So they failed an exercise stress test. 

So your ability to produce nitric oxide predicts how well you can perform. So there’s a clear association between, if you’re using mouthwash, there’s an association with endothelial dysfunction. So you’re losing the protective benefits of exercise. There’s a bit of an explanation for that because when you produce nitric oxide, it’s oxidized almost immediately to nitrite and nitrate. Then your body’s kind of the biomarkers we look at or plasma levels of nitrite and nitrate. So when you’re exercising and that’s where things like beetroot extract or titrating up your nitric oxide levels prior to sports performance because it is when oxygen is needed to make nitric oxide and the lining in the blood vessels. 

So when you reach that anaerobic threshold and oxygen becomes limiting, your nitric oxide production stops from the enzyme that makes nitric oxide. If you’ve created a pool of nitrites because you’ve generated a lot of nitric oxides prior to the anaerobic threshold. The nitrite under those low oxygen conditions actually generates nitric oxide in an enzyme-independent manner.


[00:28:57] Ashley James: Does your body take the nitrite and then in an anaerobic state, turning into nitric oxide?


[00:29:07] Dr. Nathan Bryan: That’s right. So what happens? The pKa of nitrites is about 3.4. So they’re mammalian enzymes that, specifically as the pH of the muscle decreases or the tissue decreases, that nitride becomes nitric oxide. So then, what does that nitric oxide do? It does a lot of things. Number one, it binds to cytochrome c oxidase and mitochondria so that you get oxygen diffusing further into tissue. And you push that anaerobic threshold back, so you get less lactic acid buildup. You can oxygenate that tissue to where you can turn the nitric oxide back on. It’s a self-feeding or feed-forward mechanism that’s all dependent upon your steady-state levels of nitrite. And your ability to titrate up these nitrite stores prior to reaching that anaerobic threshold.


[00:29:54] Ashley James: Now, we don’t need to get smoked bacon with potassium nitrite in it to get our nitrites. It’s a different kind of nitrite and nitrate. I’ve always thought if people knew what they put in deli meat to preserve the meat, so the meat didn’t look gray. How it affects the kidneys and how it affects the circulation in the body that they would not eat that. Those preservatives in that state are not what you’re talking about. Can you explain how do we help the body? Where are we getting the nitrites and nitrates from our food? Is it more leafy greens and the beet? Is that the best thing to do to get it from our food as the best source?


[00:30:50] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Well, yes. So it’s been a misconception and this may not be surprising to you but the media and big Pharma have not always told the truth. In terms of what’s good for us and what’s bad for us. So the nitrites and nitrates found in green leafy vegetables are the exact same molecule they used to cure hotdogs. So there are a lot of other preservatives in those curing processed meats that probably aren’t good for you. But nitrate and nitrite are protected. 

If you think about the science of curing, what are they doing? Well, you’re preventing lipid oxidation, but that’s pretty important in human physiology. So nitrite has that. So that they end up in processed meat, it prevents listeria clostridium along with these foodborne pathogens. Well, that’s pretty important in human physiology as you can prevent bacterial outbreaks, and then it binds to the iron of myoglobin, turning into a nice pink color. It does the same thing to hemoglobin. It binds to hemoglobin and allows oxygen to be delivered throughout the body. So the same chemistry involved in meat curing is the same chemistry that we’re utilizing in human physiology to prevent oxidative stress, prevent inflammation, and improve oxygen delivery to a working muscle. 

So here’s where the misconception came and I don’t deny the data on the fact that there’s an increased relative risk on people who eat curing processed meats and have a slight increase in the risk of certain gastrointestinal cancers. That’s called an association, but it’s certainly not causation. In order for you to establish causation, you have to have a biologically plausible mechanism that explains that observation. So in the 1960s and early 70s, they go– oh, well, it has to be nitrite and nitrate in the curing processed meats because of those form nitrosamine and nitrosamine cause cancer. So there’s their biologically plausible mechanism. 

That stood for about 40 years until the discovery of nitric oxide. Then it was realized, well, nitrite and nitrate are actually produced and obviously, why would our bodies naturally produce carcinogens? And then, the national government, the National Institute of Health and Public Health and Human safety, did long-term safety studies on nitrite and nitrate in our food supply. What they found was the National Toxicology Program, that’s the Gold Standard in Toxicology. So they did those escalations for both nitrite and nitrate in male and female mice, rats, and rabbits. Do you know what they found? They prevented cancer. They didn’t cause cancer. Actually, in many cases they prevented cancer. 

So that story began to fall apart, and then if that were true because 85% of the nitrate and nitrite exposure we get from our diet is from green leafy vegetables. Only 5% comes from cured and processed meats. The other 10% comes from swallowing their own saliva. It’s 10% because the nitric oxide produced endogenously is oxidized to nitrate. That nitrate in the body doesn’t discriminate the nitrate that comes from spinach versus on which is formed from enzymatic NO production. So then our body puts the nitrate in our salivary glands, we salivate, generate nitrite, swallow the nitrite, and become nitric oxide gas. So if that were the case, vegetarians or people who had a plant-based diet would have about a 10 times higher incidence of cancer and heart disease than non-vegetarians and we know it’s just the opposite.


[00:34:33] Ashley James: Right. If nitrates and nitrites were the cause. So interesting, though. We want the benefits that you’re talking about having plentiful amounts, adequate enough amounts with as much nitric oxide as the body needs, right? We want that and it doesn’t sound like we’d get it from eating a lot of cured meats. You might get like you said, 5% and you’re not getting all the benefits on all the other nutrients that come from eating plants. So there’s a significant percentage when you eat plants versus the cured meats, but also really important. Its 10% is from your oral health and having a healthy microbiome in your mouth, and not using mouthwash. It makes me think about people who are on antibiotics, and if that’s wipe-out those good bacteria, they immediately wipe out 10% of their nitric oxide production.

I know you’d blow my mind in this interview, and we’re just warming up. I only knew about vasodilation and that’s why I was excited. I knew that people reported that it helps with endurance and recovery. So it helped lower lactic acid buildup and vasodilation which is so important. Can you talk a bit more about the signaling of it? These new discoveries about how nitric oxide is used to help the parts of the body signal and talk to each other.


[00:36:10] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Well, one of the most profound discoveries and realizations in nitric oxide signaling was in 2015 with Jonathan Stamler, a good friend and colleague in Case Western, who published a paper that revealed that nitric oxide is required for oxygen delivery. As part of its signaling, nitric oxide can bind the metals or activate second messenger systems. But it can also bind to tiles on proteins. These are the sulfur-containing amino acids on proteins. So in oxygen delivery, when you breathe, you pick up oxygen and exhale CO2. And when the red blood cells go from the arterial side to the venous side through the capillaries, they release oxygen. That’s where oxygen and CO2 exchange occurred in a small red blood vessel. In order for oxygen to come off hemoglobin, nitric oxide has to be bound. If we don’t have nitric oxide bound to hemoglobin, it doesn’t undergo that structural change, which is called the Bohr Effect, and oxygen doesn’t come off. This became obvious over the last two years in COVID because the problem with COVID is a loss of blood oxygen saturation. So they become hypoxemic and put them on oxygen. If they don’t improve their oxygen saturation, they put on a ventilator and 90% of people put on a ventilator and die. That’s the root cause of COVID. 

In 2020, we got an investigational new drug application approved by the FDA, where we started our nitric oxide drug and phase three clinical trials for COVID. We see the importance of nitric oxide and oxygen uptake and oxygen delivery. In our drug study, we’re seeing COVID patients that get sick and they get blood oxygen saturation in their below 80, sometimes in their high 70s. Typically, that patient would be put on vent immediately. But they take our nitric oxide drug, and within eight minutes, we see blood oxygen saturation goes to the high 90s. 

And that explains everything we know about COVID over the past two years and that 15 years was the first SARS COV-1. The people who get sick and hospitalized from COVID are the ones that can make nitric oxide. Who are those? Those are the elderly African Americans, people with underlying cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, and smokers. Is that patient population this nitric oxide deficient? And few are nitric oxide deficient and you get exposed to COVID. The virus rapidly replicates and proliferates throughout the body. You get the systemic disease, you lose oxygen saturation, and in the hospital, you are put on a bed and you die. The simple fix is simply taking our nitric oxide drug, improving signaling, preventing vascular inflammation, improving oxygenation and you kill the virus.

In 2005 papers were published showing that nitric oxide prevents Coronavirus replication. So that’s probably one of the most important aspects of signaling. In the other aspects of signaling, you said earlier that loss of nitric oxide production causes telomere shortening. The signaling aspect is that you need nitric oxide to transcribe and make the telomeres enzyme, preventing telomere shortening. It co-localizes with nitric oxide synthase. If you can’t make nitric oxide, you don’t get to the polymerase, and you get telomere shortening. The other important component may be the most important is stem cell function. Nitric oxide is what tells our own body and tells our own stem cells in need to mobilize and differentiate. If you have a cough or an injury, nitric oxide is the signal that says, hey, I’m getting an injury. We need to mobilize our immune system and increase blood flow to that side of injury. And we need to make new cardiac myocytes, for example, or we need to make new neurons because we had a stroke. And if you can’t make nitric oxide in the body, it doesn’t get the signal to go there and repair any damaged tissue. The result is you don’t recover from injury. If you have a heart attack or stroke, typically, you lose neurological function. You lose cardiac function unless you do stem cells or stimulate your body’s own stem cells. And you can only do that through improving nitric oxide.


[00:40:48] Ashley James: I see that application for your drug for the emergency room. Someone comes in with a stroke, they just had one, and it would make sense to give it to them. Someone just comes in having a heart attack, and it makes sense to give it to them. You want to do everything you can to increase oxygen to oxygen-starved tissues because of a stroke or a heart attack. But, of course, my goal in this podcast is to help people prevent illness in the first place and help people reverse illness wherever they are. Whether they’re in early stage or even late stage. As long as your heart’s beating and you’re breathing and you’re able to take action for yourself, then there’s hope. And there are things you can do to help your body heal itself. But even if someone were to go to the emergency room, this was available to them. And they didn’t know about natural medicine and then they got sick. So that would be a fantastic emergency medicine at that moment to help them have a better outcome. So I’m really excited about your drug. 

As a society, we overuse drugs, but drugs aren’t all inherently bad. There are some amazing lifesaving drugs and the problem is that if you only go to the doctor, they throw drugs at you and don’t help you change your lifestyle and diet. And doesn’t look into the latest science of things. Then there were just throwing a bunch of drugs at a problem that might have been a diet or nutrient deficiency or diet problem or a lifestyle problem. So it’s really good, my listeners know. Does anybody have new listeners that haven’t thought of it this way? You don’t take your broken-down car to a plumber. I mean, that’s not plumbers, it’s a mechanic, right? So you take your car to a mechanic. Don’t take your health, always to the same doctor who only has a limited world view on health right?

I remember I’m from Canada. I remember I’m coming to the states and I picked out that I thought it was a good doctor. He was an osteopath, so I thought it was more holistic-minded. This is back, and we lived in Vegas, I lived in Henderson. So I went to an osteopath, really great guy. He was referred to me by my chiropractor’s wife, who’s a functional medicine practitioner and she thought that this would be good. I go to him and I’m complaining about this pain in my ovary and I don’t know if I’m having a cyst or what’s going on. I just want an ultrasound. I just want to make sure everything’s okay. I’m kind of nervous about it. And he walks into the office holding his prescription pad, writing a prescription for pain, and he’s walking in. I’m like– I don’t want pain medicine. I’m in pain, but that’s okay because pain is like notifying me that there’s something wrong and as a Canadian, it’s harder to get pain medicines that I don’t know. 

It’s different now, this is back in 2008, but it’s harder to get paid for medicines in Canada. But in the States, all I had to do was say I’m in pain and they’re like– oh, how many pain prescriptions do you want? I remember I went to a doctor, doesn’t stick to the sore throat. It’s just a sore throat, but it’s not going away. I just want to get it checked out. I’m feeling a little nervous about it. And this was before I was into Holistic Health. She wrote me a prescription for some cough syrup that had a bunch of pain meds in it. I thought this was crazy. Like I’ve never taken a cough syrup with pain meds before. Of course, it numbs my throat and everything. But it’s just this idea that we’re over-drugging ourselves. 

So we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. If there’s a drug and you’re developing a drug that can increase nitric oxide that can save lives at the moment, that’s amazing. And then, of course, in the long term, I’d love for everyone to learn what they can do to increase nitric oxide in their lifestyle and in their diet as much as possible. But, as you’ve already mentioned, eating leafy green vegetables helps hugely and making sure to take care of your oral microbiome. Don’t do things that kill the microbiome in your mouth. So we’ve got two very easy to follow and very effective tips. Are there any other lifestyle tips for ensuring the protection of our nitric oxide production and in anything else we can do to enhance nitric oxide production?


[00:45:20] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Yes, there’s a lot. So let me go back because you make some very important points there. Interestingly, when I first found the patents and some medical school faculty, we had access to the hospital and patients. Actually, Jim Wilson, who’s a famous cardiologist who unfortunately passed away last year, his idea was to use it for heart attack. So if you’ve got what’s called an ischemic patient, [inaudible 00:45:47] which is ischemia, then the problem is they have an acute obstruction in a coronary artery so we could dose them in the field, bring them back and see if we can protect the heart from injury. So, it made perfect sense. But obviously, that’s a high-risk patient population. People are going to die and so we just made the decision well. With this early technology, let’s not put it in high-risk patients. But you hit the nail right on the head. So whether it’s an ischemic stroke or heart attack, it’s a very important application. But as you also said, prevention is much easier than treatment. So we have to address it before you have a heart attack.

Then going back to drugs, I’m trained as a drug discovery chemist that’s designed to understand human disease to the extent that we can rationally design drugs. My philosophy is much different than major drug manufacturers because what they do is create a synthetic compound. It’s typically, probably 90% of the drugs out there what’s called enzyme inhibitors preventing the activity of a certain enzyme. That’s called pharmacology and there are always consequences that cause side effects or body is not designed to inhibit an enzyme for the rest of our lives, which is what drug therapy does. So what we’ve done is called restorative physiology. We understand the enzymology of many different proteins and enzymes, primarily nitric oxide-producing enzymes. We know what goes wrong in people and we can restore the function of that enzyme.

So when the drug therapy that we develop is restorative in nature. It’s not an inhibitor. It’s basically giving back to the body what’s missing in terms of nitric oxide. So we know how much nitric oxide a healthy human makes, and we basically deliver that and recapitulate nitric oxide-based signaling in the human body. So drugs or anything that goes through FDA-approved clinical trials, and their prescription. Although we do have a drug discovery program and biotech company through, nitric oxide innovations are different than the drugs on the market. For most people and probably many holistic people, drugs are bad words. But what we’re doing is really a drug intended to give the body what it needs. The body heals itself. So that’s our drug discovery platform. Trying to get these different drugs through the FDA-approved clinical trial, which by the way, is a very heavy lift, especially competing against people like Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J. Government employees doing their clinical trials for them. But you don’t need that. 

Going back to what we can do to stimulate our own nitric oxide production or prevent the age-related decline. You do two things, you stop doing the things that disrupt nitric oxide production and start doing the things that stimulate it. So we can address both of those. So number one, if you’re using mouthwash, you have to stop. The evidence is clear. I was in the Doctor Show last year where we revealed that mouthwash makes the blood pressure goes up. With mouthwash, you lose the benefits of exercise. So if you’re using mouthwash, you have to stop. Don’t overtake antibiotics. Over 200 million prescriptions are written every year for antibiotics. If you get an active infection, the antibiotics are very important but don’t overdo it because you’re killing the bad guys, but you’re also killing the good guys. 

The other thing is fluoride toothpaste or fluoride rinses, Fluoride to antiseptic. It’s a neurotoxin, and it kills your thyroid function. So if you’re using fluoride toothpaste, throw that away. Never buy fluoride toothpaste again. There’s a reason we have an epidemic of hypothyroidism. Fluoride competes with iodine binding to thyroid hormone can’t convert T4 to T3 with Iodine. Then the other thing is antacids. In over 200 million prescriptions are written for antacid every year and that’s not even counting the number of over-the-counter purchases. You have to have stomach acid and as Dr. Esselstyn says, take some apple cider vinegar before each meal. Acidify the stomach to get a better breakdown of proteins. You get your nitric oxide being produced. So those are the three things that will really make a huge difference in people’s health. Throw out the Fluoride, stop using mouthwash, and stop using an antacid. So those are the three things you must do to get out of your body’s waste that can make nitric oxide. And then do the things that stimulate more green leafy vegetables, moderate physical exercise, and 20 to 30 minutes of sunlight a day. For those that live in the North and there are long winters, you have to get an infrared sauna or infrared light.


[00:50:30] Ashley James: I have Sunlighten Sauna and it’s the coolest thing ever. It’s near, mid, and far-infrared. I feel like a new person. I love using it. I live out in the Pacific Northwest and it’s 4:30. The sun goes down at night and doesn’t come back until 7:30. So we got those long winters, but I feel like a new person since I got that Sunlighten Sauna and I absolutely love it. I interviewed the founder of Sunlighten and it was a great interview. She started the company because her brother was dying of cancer and doing everything he could to fight it. Maybe it was cancer because it was a few years ago when we did the interview. I’m pretty sure it’s cancer but he was very sick. I can’t remember what it was. It might have been cancer or might have been Lyme Disease but he was basically laid out flat on the couch. He was super sick. And then he found out that infrared could help him and it gave him a leg up. Then she developed that company and it’s all non-toxic.

My listeners get a great discount when they check out Sunlighten Sauna. I absolutely love Sunlighten Sauna technology. Now, I know another reason why I love it. It increases nitric oxide production and helps my body to do that. So you talk about Fluoride, my question is, what about Fluoride and Chlorine in that drinking water? We should do our best to drink water that doesn’t have Fluoride in it and Chlorine. Does Chlorine also affect nitric oxide and does it not also disrupt the microbiome?


[00:52:06] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Chlorine and Fluoride. If you go back to the periodic table, these are a group of elements called halogens. There’s Fluoride, Chlorine, Iodine, and Bromine– I don’t have in front of me, but those are the major ones. The biggest thing with Fluoride, Chlorine, and chloride is they compete with Iodine, binding the thyroid hormone. So most Americans are deficient in Iodine, 95% of Americans because the only dietary sources of Iodine are typically seaweed or iodized salt. So we don’t get enough Iodine in the body, yet we’re exposed to Fluoride in our drinking water. Fluoride in toothpaste. Most humans have more Fluoride and chloride in their blood-streaming cells than Iodine. They’re the same type of chemistry with the same halogen properties on that one row on the periodic table. They have similar functions and similar chemistry. So they act as competitors in binding Iodine to thyroid hormone. So, you become hypothyroid. I tell people that everybody has to supplement with Iodine. Everybody’s deficient in Iodine. 

Going back to your question, the municipal waters are probably the worst thing in the world you can drink. Not only does it have Fluoride and Chlorine, but it has drug metabolites in it. So you have to have a pump filtration system to remove all these toxins from the water supply. People think it’s bad to drink it. What’s worse, it’s bad to cook in it. So it’s even worse to bathe in it because you’re heating the bathwater up to sometimes 104, 110 degrees, then you volatilize and there are chloramines and you inhale it. So you get better absorption, transdermal through inhaling it. Volatilize by heating the water and people get sick and get a chronic illness. So you have to eat, drink and bathe in good clean water and not municipal water coming out of the pipes of major metropolitan areas.


[00:54:12] Ashley James: I absolutely agree with you. I felt amazing when I lived in a place with the well water. It makes such a difference to bathe in water, drink water, and cook with water that is from the ground that doesn’t have any fluoride, Chlorine, or any chemicals in it. Oh, so good. I recently found a water filter that’s affordable, that removes everything. It’s called Zero water. I’ve been meeting to contact the company and see if they could get whether science guys to come on and explain how it works. But it’s better than any other filter I found and it’s like 30 bucks, and it looks like any other kind of picture. They have the bigger ones, like a 23 cup one, and that’s the one I got. But it comes with a tester that tests the total dissolved solids of parts per million. And sure, it sets to zero and they give you the little machine that tests the water for you. 

So that you know when it starts showing numbers on it and when to replace the filter. It takes for me about every two months to replace the filter. I’m sure up it works as well as a four hundred dollars in reverse osmosis and it’s only like 30 bucks. So lately, I found out a few months ago and the water tastes so good coming out. Now that we’re living in a place with municipal water, I need to find something better, even better than my Berkey. My Berkey wasn’t removing everything. But it [inaudible 55:45] everything. So I thought that was really cool. You’ve given us so much information and I keep thinking. You’ve created some products that we can use because I’m going to do everything you said. And in addition to that, I want to take it to the next level. I’m sure my listeners are the same, or they’re like—well, what else I can do. 

You’ve given us the life hacks and things that we can make sure that we’re doing, which are simple enough. Clean water, clean toothpaste, no mouthwash, take care of the microbiome, eat foods like nice leafy greens, and eat food that increases nitric oxide. But in addition to that, what else can we do to take it to the next level and get the maximum benefit considering that nitric oxide does so much more than I thought that it helps. If it’s helping with telomeres, it’s helping extend life. It’s helping literally tell your DNA to live longer. I heard you mentioned how it helps mitochondrial function. I don’t quite understand exactly what you said and how it affects viral or suppresses viral production in bacterial production. I understood that it is fundamental to the immune system that your immune cells help make it and the signaling within the cells. Vasodilation like there are so many aspects. One point alone, it increases oxygen, drives deeper into the tissue and pushes back lactic acid. When I go to exercise, I hate it when I’m getting started and my muscles are already fatigued, burning and I’m already anaerobic. 

I look at my son, who’s about to be seven. I remember having energy for days. I can take this kid to play areas and I’m waiting for him; my butt gets numb, or my feet get cold. Something like my body is hanging out and chilling with other moms. I’m waiting for my kid to get tired—three and a half hours into a play area. I’m bored and cold and ready to go home and he’s just like—go, go, go. To have that fitness level again, anything to increase that ability to go longer and feel like you’re seven again. 

So tell us about the products you’ve created and offer a fantastic discount to the listeners. We are so grateful for giving us 10% off. Every little bit helps these days. The coupon code, of course, we’re all everything when we get a discount. We always ask for the coupon code LTH, which is Learn True Health podcast. So LTH is a discount. You have several websites, but the best website for all our listeners to go to and the easiest one is n as in the letter n, one, o, one dot com. It’s I’m sure there’s a reason for that. Is that the nitric oxide molecule?


[00:59:17] Dr. Nathan Bryan: That’s one Nitrogen and one Oxygen. 


[00:59:20] Ashley James: Yes, like H2O is water. So it’s, and that one does not spell out But, of course, the links to everything that we’re talking about today was going to be in the show in today’s podcast in But when we went to, I was surprised about the products because the first thing I saw was some face creams. And I’m all about looking good. But here you are, scientists, about how to increase nitric oxide production. So let’s start with the obvious, what’s up with the face creams?


[00:59:55] Dr. Nathan Bryan: This has been an evolution. I’ve been doing this for 20 years and as I mentioned early on, when we started going and when we solved the riddle on how to create nitric oxide in a safe and effective manner, it changes everything. So when we started developing product technology, we first launched in the dietary supplement space, and we set good results there. And then I get to think, what else that is people forget the skins and organs. Like the heart, if you have an interruption of blood supply to the heart, what happens? The heart fails. If you have a disruption in the blood supply to the brain, well, the brain fails. Just like any other organ, if you have decreased blood flow to the skin, what happens? It fails. What does the failing skin look like? When you lose collagen and you lose hydration, fine lines and wrinkles start to appear and the skin hangs and drupes, you get dermatitis, and you get age spots, and that’s aging. 

What is the root cause of aging? Well, it’s a lack of nitric oxide production. So we figured out how to deliver a solid dose form of nitric oxide in the form of a lozenge. So we created a door chamber serum that when you mix these two components together, you basically take one pump from one side, one pump from the other. So you mix it together, then chemistry starts as normally would on the skin’s surface and we generate nitric oxide gas. This is the coolest show in the history of any product technology. Aesthetics and skincare’s multibillion-dollar. People buy a lot of stuff and most cosmetic skincare products are masking. They hide the blemishes, and they hide the fine lines and wrinkles. They don’t get to the root cause. 

When you apply this to the skin, you’ll see it turned pink. What is that? That’s the infusion of blood and oxygen to that area. The nitric oxide is the gas part that diffuses above the skin, but part of it diffuses into the dermis and opens up capillaries. It gives blood oxygen which is blood, into the cells, just like everything we’ve discussed. What does that mean when you get oxygen nutrient deliveries? Stem cells begin to turn on, so you get to regenerative cells, so they slough off the old cells. We regenerate new cells, and we do biopsies. We’ve seen improvement in collagen deposition, cellular hydration, infections, whether it’s some dermatitis or acne. We kill the bacteria, fine lines and wrinkles disappear, and so just like we can recover. 

Our nitric oxide can make a heart attack, but there’s injury and reduced blood supply to the heart. We can overcome the effects of loss of fusion to the skin by providing a source of mycotoxins in the body. Otherwise, it didn’t make it. The result is that we’ve got four published clinical trials on that and see improvements from fine lines and wrinkles to scar remediation, acne, eczema, and any type of dermatitis. Again, it doesn’t mask. We’re getting to the root cause of that underlying skin disorder or just preventing the looks of aging. So that was the N101 serum and then we created an entire line. We had a glycolic wash that helps remove the old cells because we’re improving cellular turnover like a colic wash that gets rid of the old cells so that the new cells can come forward. We got an eye cream and a face cream that contains peptides and growth factors. It’s a really remarkable system and as they said, you don’t have to guess if this product is working. You can see it working right between your eyes. We call it the pink glow, the Pneuma glow.


[01:03:46] Ashley James: So it’s helping increase oxygen to the cells that aren’t getting enough oxygen, which is then all the cells are just functioning better. It sounds like the fountain of youth. It sounds like it’s going to pour the fountain of youth on my face. I’m really excited about that. Luckily, I don’t have any major skin issues. But I hit my 40s now and I want to prevent looking like a leather boot in 10 years. I’m excited about that. I have a little bit of rosacea that my grandmother and my mom had. I’m not going to blame my genes. I’m sure that there’s something I can do to change. I’ve always been figuring out things in my diet and my lifestyle to improve. But it would be neat if it helped with that. Does it help reduce acne because the bacteria are anaerobic bacteria? The bacteria that causes acne, is it basically killed because the tissues are oxygen?


[01:04:54] Dr. Nathan Bryan:  It does two things. There’s clear evidence of a mechanism of how nitric oxide kills bacteria. It binds to the iron-sulfur centers, which are the respiratory sites of bacteria. So basically, it suffocates the bacteria. So there are clear antimicrobial, antibacterial effects of nitric oxide. So in acne, it’s doing two things. It kills the bacteria’s active infection in the pustules but also calms the inflammation and mobile and gets the blood supply there. So you shut down the immune response because the immune system doesn’t need to be activated. There are no bacteria and then you suppress the inflammatory response. That’s how you get rid of acne.


[01:05:35] Ashley James: I apologize if you said this before. I just really want to be clear about it. Does nitric oxide in every tissue of the body decrease inflammatory response?


[01:05:53] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Yes. I mean, that’s part of nitric oxide drops. In acute inflammation, whether it’s an injury, whether it’s a cut or whether it’s an exposure to an infection. An acute inflammatory response is necessary for our survival and part of that is mediated through nitric oxide. So you have to mobilize your immune system, dilate the blood vessels, and then go and isolate that source of infection or injury to the immune cells. So it generates a lot of nitric oxide at the site of injury. And that happens for four or five hours and then the inflammatory immune cascade goes away. 

The problem with chronic inflammation, there’s no off switch. So what nitric oxide does, when you have whether it’s acute inflammation in the gut, whether it’s ulcerative colitis or inflammatory bowel disease or rheumatoid arthritis or lupus or any autoimmune disease with chronic inflammation, it shuts down systemic nitric oxide production. So nitric oxide, one of its roles is to shut down the inflammatory response and inflammation. The earliest stages of that are what’s called microvascular inflammation. 

When you get monocytes and neutrophils that stick to the lining of the blood vessel, they migrate through. They elicit an immune response. And that’s the inflammation, oxidative stress and immune dysfunction that occur in every inflammatory condition. If you restore nitric oxide production, primarily endothelial nitric oxide production, you prevent that entire inflammatory cascade. You suppress inflammation. You suppress the immune dysfunction or shut down the oxidative stress associated with all of it. One of my patents is on a method of reducing inflammation as measured by C-reactive protein. So when we improve nitric oxide production in the human body, we decrease C-reactive protein, which is an acute-phase marker of inflammation.


[01:07:50] Ashley James: That is so cool because so many doctors say inflammation is the root cause of the problem and it’s like– no, you’re going to go deeper.


[01:08:03] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Inflammation is the consequence of loss of nitric oxide.


[01:08:05] Ashley James:  Right. I’ve interviewed several doctors that say too much lactic acid is the cause of all diseases. It’s like they all have a piece of an elephant. Have you heard that? I don’t know if it’s a parable. You’ve heard the story of 12 Blind Men is all touching a part of an elephant. And they’re all arguing like– no, describe the elephant. Well, it feels large and leathery. No, it feels like a rope. No, it feels like a very thin thing. No, it feels round like a hose. So each person is touching a different part of the elephant. So we have to be careful not to treat the smoke but go after the fire. Imagine every time you show up to a fire, and we saw firemen putting it out, and we’re like—aha, firemen caused the fire because every time we see a fire, there’s firemen. Or oh, let’s start treating the smoke. See the smoke? There’s smoke. We should treat it and what’s causing the fire and how to put it out. 

So inflammation is a byproduct. Lactic acid is a byproduct where we need to keep going deeper. Yes, everyone wants to address decreasing inflammation. Everyone wants to eat a low inflammatory diet. Doesn’t want to do anything in your lifestyle, your diet that increases inflammation, just like you don’t want to have too much lactic acid. And you want to make sure you have enough oxygen for yourself and this is all very important. But what is the root? Get to the root. We’re seeing that nitric oxide is the absolute root. We have to make sure we have enough of it or else everything just becomes the standard American statistic. One in three people is dying of something right now and 70% of our population is on at least one prescription medication. I would say 70% of people in America probably have low nitric oxide, given what we’re hearing today.


[01:10:10] Dr. Nathan Bryan: You made a very good point. I just want to expound because I get questions and everybody can research now. They can go to Google and put it in and find anything they’re looking for. You can get the answer to whatever you’re looking for, whether it’s right or wrong. There’s an answer out there. I read a paper that says in chronic inflammation, and nitric oxide contributes to tissue damage during that inflammation. So nitric oxide should be contraindicated inflammatory disease. If you read the literature, we looked in lupus or Parkinson’s disease or ulcerative colitis in these scientific papers. In the tissue pathology reports, we found an increase in nitrotyrosine and peroxynitrite. So nitric oxide is causing that damage. So it’s the exact same analogy you use.

When there’s a crime, the police show up at the crime scene. The interpretation isn’t that the police cause the crime. But, of course, nitric oxide is there in that inflammatory. That’s its job because it’s there doesn’t mean that it’s contributed to the crime or caused the disease. So it’s there to clean up the mess. So you have to be careful on how you interpret data. And scientists are famous for this. You give the data and there’s a misinterpretation of the data. Most of the data out there can sometimes be misinterpreted by the authors of the paper and even by the people who read it. 

So it’s clear that low nitric oxide is bad. Too much nitric oxide is bad. Too little water is bad, too much water– obviously, if you drink too much water in a short period of time, your [inaudible 01:11:55] and you’ll die. So everything in moderation. It’s very important to realize that you have to figure it out and generate the right amount of nitric oxide at the right time and in the right place. That’s what we’ve been able to figure it out over the past 20 years and nobody else has been able to figure this out.


[01:12:13] Ashley James: Okay, that brings me to the question. How much is nitric oxide too much? How do we know if we’re reaching toxic levels of nitric oxide? To eat four cups of leafy greens a day, you’re not going to kill yourself. If you try to eat four grocery bags a day, probably you would explode. Could we get toxic with nitric oxide through– you’ve got nitric oxide lozenges. I’m excited about learning about that. It is my next and I want to explore that. But we’re doing okay. So we’re going to do everything you’ve already said, eat healthily, and make sure we’re not killing the bacteria in our mouths. And, of course, under natural intervention, we wouldn’t have too much nitric oxide, at least. I’m guessing. Let me know if I’m wrong. In addition to that, I want to increase my nitric oxide more and I want to take your lozenges. Could I become nitric oxide toxic?


[01:13:13] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Yes, very good questions. Now, let me go back and hit on the points that you brought up earlier again. So you mentioned green leafy vegetables and eating a good clean diet. Here’s the challenge. We did this and we published this in 2015. We wanted to answer that same question you asked. How much broccoli or celery would I need to eat? How much spinach do I need to eat in one serving to get enough nitrate in that food to normalize my blood pressure and improve nitric oxide production? A very important question because if we can answer that question, we can change the strict guidelines. We can get people off blood pressure medicine simply through dietary intervention. 

And we can recapitulate Dr. Esselstyn’s work in patients with full-blown coronary artery disease. So in order to answer that question, we went to five different cities across the US. We went to the same retail grocery, we bought the same vegetables and brought them back to the lab and analyzed them. So what we found was pretty striking. We found that if you lived, for instance, in Dallas or Chicago, and you went to what’s called [inaudible 01:14:29] or some retail grocery. So you bought six stalks of celery and you consume those six stalks within 20 minutes, which would give you enough nitric to normalize your blood pressure. 

If you lived in New York, you’d have to eat about 40 stalks of celery. So there are regional differences in the nitrate content of vegetables, and it’s all across the US. So we went to New York, and we went to Raleigh, Chicago, Dallas and Los Angeles. There’s as much as 50-fold difference in the nitrate content of broccoli or celery in New York, as there in Dallas or Los Angeles. It holds true for lettuce, spinach, and every vegetable we measure. So the point of that is that there’s no way in hell we can make recommendations because it depends on where you live and how your vegetables are grown. By the way, those were conventionally grown vegetables. We also compared it to organically grown vegetables and found that organically grown vegetables across the board have as much as the five to 10 times less nitrate than conventionally grown. The variation is much higher, maybe a hundredfold difference in nitrate content of organically grown vegetables from different regions of the US.

So the point is, you cannot eat enough, just like you can’t eat enough curing processed meats to get enough nitrite/nitrate to lower your blood pressure. You can’t eat enough organic vegetables to get enough nitrate because to have an organic label, and you’re not allowed to add nitrogen-based fertilizers to the soil. So as a consequence, the soil is nitrogen deficient, and the vegetables that are grown in it don’t accumulate nitrate. Without nitrate or nitrogen, they don’t assimilate other vitamins and minerals. So organically grown vegetables are healthy simply because they’re not exposed to herbicides or pesticides. But they’re depleted of most nutrients, including nitrate. 

So, that adds another level of complexity to trying to do the right thing. Yet not getting what we are designed to be and I’ve seen data. Since the 1940s, there’s been a 90% decline in the trace minerals and nutrients in the food that’s grown in the US. So we have to feed a growing planet, and that increased deficiency of food production has led to a decrease in nutrient absorption and assimilation. So we’re producing a less nutritious product globally. 


[01:16:58] Ashley James: Exactly. And then we’re getting all these nutrient deficiency diseases, and someone can be obese and nutrient deficient at the same time. And one of my mentors, Dr. Joel Wallach, talks about his first degree was in soil agriculture. And then, he was a veterinarian, pathologist, and research scientist and later became a naturopathic physician. So here’s a fun story. You should check out his story of it. He saw early on like calf pellets of all these great vitamins and minerals. So he started eating calf pellets as a kid because he looked at the package and asked his dad– Dad, why are we giving all these minerals and vitamins? He’s in his 80s, so like it was 70 years ago. So why are we giving all these nutrients? Why are we taking these nutrients? It was explained to him that– we’ll if we use a human medicine which is a way to get sick and go to the doctor and take a bunch of tests and be put on drugs, right? Human medicine.

If you use human medicine for cattle, for beef farming, right? The steak would be $500 or $1,000 like a burger with beef, $50 or more. That’s because it’s for profit medicine. But with the poultry, pork, and beef, they need to keep the costs down while keeping the animals alive and making big animals. So what do they do? They try to prevent disease and they do that by making sure that there’s enough nutrition in their feed. Yet they make sure there’s enough nutrition in our food. 

So Dr. Wallach jokes about it, but he says that your chickens are being treated better than you are in terms of the amount of nutrients. In terms of the amount of nutrition there, the food industry is not interested in making sure you have 60 essentials, meaning the body needs these things to function. It’s 60 minerals the body needs, and there are 77 trace minerals and elements that we thrive on. They’re not in our food, and yet we’re giving vitamins and minerals to animals to help prevent disease and make nice big animals so they can make a profit. So it just drives me nuts hearing about that. 

Someone in Texas eats a few stalks of celery, lowers their blood pressure and is great. But someone is listening in Wisconsin, or Seattle or New York, or in a different country altogether. No matter how many stalks they can fit in their mouth, they are not really getting the results and that’s super frustrating. But that goes to say when selenium. People will say– off to sleep and don’t have to be grown in selenium-rich soil just like– oh, my iron is low. I’m going to have more spinach. I love spinach. Most spinach is hydroponically grown. It only needs NPK water and sunlight to grow that can be completely void of 50 or more minerals. So there doesn’t have to be minerals in your food for them to grow food anymore. Even if you look at Franken foods that are packaged foods, these foods don’t have to have nutrients that your body needs. Which now we know is directly related to your nitric oxide production. 

So, what’s the solution? Obviously, still eating a clean and healthy diet, try not to get pesticides and all that. I mean, growing our own food and making sure we put in blood meat or whatever it has high nitrogen in the soil as we grow our own food. That would be one solution. But what’s the solution for someone who is done feeling sick and wants the benefits that you spend over 40 minutes talking about all the benefits of nitric oxide. What’s the solution? If it is your lozenges that you’ve created. The next concern is what’s the good amount to take because that person in Texas is actually eating just accidentally getting enough nitrates and nitrites to produce nitric oxide. They could take two lozenges versus someone in New York who can be taken few. How do we gauge this?


[01:21:23] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Yes. A very, very good question and very important question. And that’s where the innovation comes in because we realized a long time ago that very few people do through diet, work, or lifestyle or getting enough nitric oxide. So you almost have to have product technology. You almost have to supplement with trace minerals and nutrients, which I do every day. Because we’re not getting it from our food supply and I live on hundreds of acres in Texas. We grow our own food. We raise our own beef in the food we eat. So even if we’re still not getting all the trace minerals we need, you have to supplement. 

There are two main causes or two main signs of toxicity for nitric oxide. There are only two. So one is methemoglobinemia which means that you take so much that you oxidize the iron and your red blood cells and you can no longer transport oxygen. So what that looks like is cyanosis. The people get blue around the lips, and they basically suffocate like cyanide poisoning. You would have to take a hundred of those lozenges to see any changes in methemoglobinemia. The other is low blood pressure. But you take too much nitric oxide, you’ll see systemic vasodilation, and you’ll see a drop in blood pressure. You’ll get sick of it. You get lightheaded because you can’t profuse the brain because of low blood pressure. Those are the only signs of toxicity based on the chemistry of nitric oxide. 

So the trick has been– how do you restore? Again, the keyword is restore. We don’t want to give the body more than what it’s used to seeing or what it would normally produce. And that’s what we’ve learned over the past 20 years. How much nitric oxide to generate over a certain period of time to recapitulate it basically. The only way to do that is through a lozenge because we generate. If your body can’t make nitric oxide, we do it for you. That lozenge is designed to have a resonant time of about six or seven minutes. You put it in your mouth. It’s activated by your saliva in regenerating nitric oxide gas. And that nitric oxide is absorbed in the oral cavity. It’s oxidized to nitrite. It’s transported to bind to the glutathione and transported as an S-nitrosoglutathione. And that extends the biological activity from one millisecond out to hours. 

Again through research, we know what normal plasma levels of these biomarkers are. We know what normal salivary levels of these biomarkers are. We give back what the body’s missing. It’s no different than anything else. If you’re low in vitamin D, what do you do? You take vitamin D. How do you know you have enough? Where do you get your blood labs drawn? If your vitamin D is 80, you’re vital right on the spot. So keep doing what you’re doing. 

Same thing with this. There’s no clinical measure of nitric oxide. Unfortunately, there are no labs that you can tell, like vitamin D or cholesterol, or triglycerides. So what do we have to do? We have to test our saliva, which there are salivary test strips out there that I developed over 12 years ago. They can tell you what your nitric oxide levels are. Or the best measure is check your blood pressure. It’s easy. It’s not invasive and you know if your blood pressure’s normal. The beauty of what we do is, for instance, my blood pressure runs about 116 over 68 or 72. So when I take a lozenge, it doesn’t trump my blood pressure and that’s called homeostasis. If your blood pressure’s high, you take it and it normalizes it. If blood pressure is normal or low, you won’t further reduce your blood pressure. So it’s a very important safety aspect about what we do because we don’t want to lower blood pressure more in people with already low blood pressure.


[01:25:18] Ashley James: Some people have low blood pressure. By the way, Dr. Wallach says that the first thing he goes to is the calcium deficiency, but that doesn’t mean you eat more dairy. You want to make sure you’re getting an absorbable form of calcium that is useful to the body. I have a family member who was fainting from standing up. He was bedridden just recently. He tries to stand up with a walker and immediately, his blood pressure drops so low that he is fainting. So I gave him the liquid calcium and multi-mineral from I read about them and so many interviews. Within days, he’s able to stand without fainting. And that’s so cool. 

There are always other reasons that can cause low blood pressure, but for him, it’s the first thing to try when you hear some good information from a holistic doctor. You try it and you get some results. I just love that. I’m so excited to get these lozenges. We used to be on for about seven years. We moved last year, but we have been drinking nitrites for seven years. There are high levels of nitrites in our well water. It wasn’t high enough to cause Blue Baby Syndrome. That’s what I was concerned about. When my son was a baby, I was concerned about that. It was naturally high in our area. There was no agricultural area and it was kind of weird. And I was concerned about it. 

My husband’s blood pressure was really under control in those seven years. He was getting nitrites and one of the sources was from our well water. They would test it often and it was high. It’s high normal but not dangerous, but still high. I thought to myself, that’s interesting. Maybe think back to when we were cavemen and we’re drinking water that naturally has nitrites in it, maybe because of the breakdown of stuff. One of the reasons it’s in well water is the breakdown of vegetation and things like that. And that can be dangerously high and toxic because if you’re getting unclean well water from the farmland, that leech to it. One of the sources that someone could get it from. So it’s interesting. I’m excited to get these lozenges because I want to give it to my husband. Lately, his blood pressure has been creeping up, which can also be from stress. We’re under high stress right now because of taking care of sick family members. I’m just really excited and I’m already on your website buying the lozenges right now. I’m very excited to get him on it and I will come back and share it with the listeners after my husband takes it in and let them know what happens with his blood pressure. So I’m going to take some too and then work out at the gym and I’m going to let everyone know what I felt. If I noticed a difference in my ability to keep going at the gym or if I gave up after five curl-ups. 


[01:28:43] Dr. Nathan Bryan: It involves science. We’ve learned a lot over the past 20 years and continue to pivot and improve. We’ve learned over the 20 years that nitric oxide is clinically important, but it’s not a silver bullet. It’s not an end-all, be-all, and cure-all. But what’s clear is that your body cannot and will not heal or perform optimally unless you have sufficient nitric oxide being produced. Going back to what you said earlier about these mineral deficiencies, I’ve been in basic science for almost 25 years. What’s clear to me is that people get sick for two weeks in two weeks only. It didn’t matter if it was cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer’s, or Diabetes. So the body is missing something that it needs, or it’s exposed to something that it doesn’t need. 

In that model, in that paradigm, there’s no room for drug therapy. If you’re deficient in the mineral, you’ll get sick. If we supplement and give back what’s missing, we remove any toxin, whether it’s fluoride or herbicides or pesticides or EMF or infections from root canals. If we remove the source of exposure to toxins and give back what the body’s missing, the body heals itself. That’s the only way people are going to get better. It’s not through drug therapy. It’s not putting band-aids on and not getting to the root cause. So the end result of all that, whether you are toxic or your mineral deficient, leads to a loss of nitric oxide production. They reduce blood flow, increase inflammation, oxidative stress and immune dysfunction and that’s the hallmark of every single chronic disease. 


[01:30:30] Ashley James: Fascinating. Do you have any information about cancer and nitric oxide?


[01:30:40] Dr. Nathan Bryan: When nitric oxide is known to regulate cell cycle and cell proliferation, this goes back to the 1940s, and this is called the Warburg effect that cancer cells only respire and proliferate in low oxygen, in low pH environment. So it’s a mitochondrial disease. It’s mitochondrial dysfunction. So it’s typically caused by some toxins. So it got to remove the source– and this is what frustrates me about oncologists. It does not matter if it’s breast cancer, prostate cancer, or brain cancer. They only have three tools– surgery, chemo, and radiation. The frustration is the oncologist never asked the patient, why did you have cancer? How can you treat something if you don’t know why you got it? To throw into those three responses to every single cancer case that they see. Nobody’s ever been cured of cancer from surgery, chemo, or radiation. It’s never happened. 

If they put them in regression, it may extend their life, but it’s never cured cancer. It’s never in the history of the world that cancer has been cured with standard chemo, radiation, and surgery because they don’t understand the etiology of cancer. What’s poisoned the mitochondria to allow them to what’s called anaerobic fermentation and to disrupt normal cellular metabolism. That’s the root cause of cancer. We have to figure out what’s poisoning the mitochondria. It’s usually some toxins and usually, it’s a toxin from some infections that you have in the body. Whether it’s a brown section or whether it’s bacterial on asymptomatic bacterial infection in root canals. We’re finding most solid tumors can be traced back to an infection in a root canal tooth. So we have to remove the source of infection, extract the root canal teeth, clean up the infection, and then support the body so it can basically heal. Get some voltage, an oxygen increase, while pH increases oxygen delivery. So you do that partly through nitric oxide and then the body heals itself. It’s really very clear to me. 


[01:32:57] Ashley James: I love it. I’m just so excited about what you’re delivering today to the listeners and how it can help them. Those who are suffering from major diseases. Those who want to prevent major disease or want to reverse the disease or those who want to feel better. Wherever they are, they just want to feel better. This some very, very, very excited. So when we started taking lozenges, we started slow. I’m going to take it once a day and see how it goes. Then maybe once or twice a day and see how it goes. Is there anything about body weights, like a 100-pound woman and a 350-pound man taking different amounts?


[01:33:40] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Regarding what we do, whether it’s in dietary supplements, the only thing we have to do is demonstrate safety. Obviously we can’t make drug claims. But everything we do is tailored toward a 70 to an 80-kilogram person, which is 130 to 160-pounds human. And that’s the benchmark. So that’s how drugs are developed. So obviously, if you got a 60,70-pound kid, take half. If you’re older than that, our total body volume is more than that. So the pharmacokinetics are going to be much different than a 120-pound person. 

But I think what we have nitric oxide and what we do in that lozenge, technology is nitric oxide over a certain period of time and people typically get the same response. So that doesn’t mean that a 240-pound person should put two lozenges into their mouth at one time. I wouldn’t recommend that. We found that one wasn’t like for me. I’m 48 years old and the vascular age of a 28-year-old. I’m in pretty good health. I don’t have any issues with blood pressure. Labs are pretty good, actually, very normal for a 48-year-old. So I take one lozenge a day because it gives me that support I need. But I try to eat and I go to the gym every day. I send an infrared sauna and every day. I’m in a hyperbaric chamber every night when I’m at home. I’m not at home pretty much because I travel a lot. 

So I do everything that my body needs to optimize nitric oxide production. So I don’t need that much more health. Everybody’s busy. People don’t always eat a good diet, and certainly, most people don’t have time or the discipline to go to the gym everyday and get modern physical exercise. So those are the people that need the most support. Not us that are health conscious and try to do the things. Watch what we eat and take on the discipline to do the right things even though it’s hard work and very time-consuming to stay healthy. But for me, it’s worth it because the last thing I want to do if you’re unhealthy– our health is our greatest asset. We can’t enjoy life if we don’t have good health. It’s worth the hard work, and your body will thank you for it.


[01:35:57] Ashley James: If you have paid good money to buy a house, you have to replace the roof every 10 years with one of those really cool roofs for every 40 years. You’ve made all this money and put all this effort into buying a house and paying off a mortgage. You’re not going to let the roof rot. Then just completely destroy your investments and where you live. Your body is where you live. Yes, it’s a pain in the butt to make lifestyle changes and make habit changes and make diet changes. 

I have a little brat inside me that she’s like about six and she just wants, what she wants, what she wants. She wants to go to the drive-thru. She wants to eat all the junk they sell at the movie theater. Like she just wants what she wants, what she wants it and that’s what she wants that dopamine spikes. She wants those feel-good chemicals that happen in the brain when she gets her way. She gets to eat fried foods, sugary, greasy, whatever kind of food. We all have that brat inside of us that is drug-addicted. Addicted to processed food that wants that rush. 

For some people, it’s potato chips. For some people, it’s fast food. For some people, it’s alcohol, right? Alcohol is something I bet decreases nitric oxide production. So I’m just going to guess. Am I right? Does that have any effect on nitric oxide production? 


[01:37:24] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Well, it does but increasingly not. We published data probably 15 years ago. Moderate alcohol consumption is cardioprotective. So meaning that there are observational data that if you have a heart attack after one or two drinks, the heart suffers less injury from a heart attack than people who say they didn’t have a drink. So mechanistically, we know that a moderate alcohol consumption upregulates some enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase. It also causes an aldehyde dehydrogenase and extends the biological half-life of nitric oxide. 

That’s moderate and it’s called ethanol preconditioning. Again, there’s a very narrow opportunity there to do that. So you can quickly overdo it and then you overburden the liver. You upregulate p450 enzymes and it leads to a number of problems. But moderate alcohol consumption is actually cardioprotective.


[01:38:22] Ashley James: You have those two glasses of wine and then have a heart attack. Can’t you have two glasses of wine yesterday and have a heart attack right? Are you saying it’s just after moderate alcohol consumption?


[01:38:38] Dr. Nathan Bryan: That’s right. 


[01:38:40] Ashley James: Everyone’s walking around with a glass of wine like I’m going to sip just in case, moderately protective of my heart. What’s better is eating super clean, super healthy, and getting some good nitric oxide. So let’s prevent damage to our heart by preventing heart disease in the first place. It’s been so much fun having you on the show. I’m really excited to dive in and also you have this great book on your website. So when listeners go to your websites, it’s very easy, it’s very clean and not cluttered. It’s There’s the cool skincare stuff. There are the little lozenges and then there’s your book. So very simple. To rapid up, tell us about your book. What would we get into your book more than what we got today in this great interview? What more would we get if we got your book? Should we even get your book? Is your book is something we should dive into? 


[01:39:36] Dr. Nathan Bryan: I mean, this is in rapid-fire and this is 30 years of research and distilled down into 90 minutes. Most people learn through repetition. So the book is called Functional Nitric Oxide Nutrition. It basically distills down a very complex, complicated science into a story that’s easily digested and easily understood. The plan and digestive. It’s how you can use diet and lifestyle to restore your nitric oxide production. It’s an easy read. It takes about an hour and 15,20 minutes, depending on how fast a reader you are. It’s a good reference because you can go back and mark pages then over time, this is all going to make sense. So the point is simple strategies. Start to see changes in your own health and wellness. 


[01:40:32] Ashley James: Yes. I’m seeing nitric oxide now—you’re like Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat. You’re way ahead of your time. That song is like he’s way ahead of his time. These are early pioneering stages and think back to 100 years ago when they discover something about health. It’s like– oh my gosh, there’s a single vitamin C. It’s amazing. We just discovered this but today, we take it for granted. We take vitamins for granted when they were first discover to prevent scurvy and all these other diseases. It’s amazing. Vitamin C, it’s revolutionary.

We take it for granted, but 100 years from now, everyone’s going to be like– yes, don’t get your nitric oxide check, what’s wrong with you? You’re completely low nitric oxide. Like– oh, you’re low in vitamin C, get some even though this is not very new to us. So 100 years from now, no doubt, we need nitric oxide. This is something your lozenges are going to be on every shelf. It’s going to be very needed and also common. Right now, it’s not common because it’s just the only groundbreaking field that’s growing. I’m so excited to see the body of work as a science dive deeper into understanding human physiology and how to support the body in reversing and preventing disease. 

We can do so much of it from diet lifestyle, but also understanding their diet is compromised. It doesn’t mean that they give up and go to McDonald’s. Our diet is compromised because even no matter how healthy you eat, our farming practices over 100 years have messed up our food. So if you can grow your own food, it’s great. If you can make a relationship with a farmer and that grows really clean, healthy, and re-mineralizes the soil and uses a nitrogen-based fertilizer. It’s awesome. You can eat that food too. 

Check out the website of Dr. Nathan Bryan, which is Use the coupon code LTH to get the awesome stuff. I’m going to share my results as I said and as I go forward using your stuff. Check out the book. I love the idea of real repetition, taking your 30 years of work and humility down to something that we can understand and absorb. And then take that to heart because this is the root. This is something so important. I don’t want to overlook that if we can increase nitric oxide to healthy levels. We can have a healthy immune system, cardiovascular system, mitochondria, and healthy signaling in the body, and the list went on and on. So you guys are still discovering more benefits to it as well. Is there anything you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview?



[01:43:30] Dr. Nathan Bryan: No, I think just to touch on what you said, we’re way ahead of our time. Nitric oxide is today where fish oil was 30 years ago. And now official is ubiquitous. Everybody knows. Most people supplement with it. But now, the science is very clear that your body cannot and will not heal without nitric oxide. So we have to start employing strategies and understand what are we doing on a daily basis that’s disrupting our body’s ability to produce nitric oxide. So we have to stop that and start doing the clinically proven things to promote it. I will share that I got an educational website. I’m not a big promoter of products and more on providing education and awareness. So you and your listeners can make informed decisions. So I’ve got an educational website called There’s a six-minute video on there. I do a monthly blog. I try to provide some timely and practical tips that people can employ and hopefully, you can learn something. You can follow me on Instagram, Dr. Nathan S or LinkedIn.


[01:44:40] Ashley James: Love it. And of course, the links to everything you just mentioned will be in the show notes of today’s podcast, or the description wherever you’re listening from. It’s been such a pleasure having you on the show. Please come back on the show when you have more breakthroughs. We’d love to be updated as you continue to innovate and dive into this. When your drug is full, all the testing is done, all these studies have been completed and it’s now approved for FDA use. I’d love to also hear more stories about that. 

Again, I’m not a fan of drugs, but I’m a big fan of drugs that will save someone’s life. I’d rather be on a drug alive. So if we can have saved your life with a drug, let’s do everything we can to get your healthy again. Just do everything to get you healthy, so you don’t need the drug. But I’m so glad that emergency medicine is available to us. It shouldn’t be the only medicine we go. We don’t want to wait until we get sick and then go to the emergency room. So let’s do everything we can to prevent never having to go there in the first place. But still, when your drug is totally approved, in, and available in ERs. I’d love to have you back on the show to hear more about the studies, the success, and the results. Of course, with anything that you’re innovating around this, please come back. We’d love to hear more. 


[01:45:57] Dr. Nathan Bryan: Thank you so much. 


[01:45:59] Ashley James: I hope you had a fantastic time listening to today’s interview. Wasn’t that mind-blowing? I look forward to the next few interviews because I have some more mind-blowing fantastic interviews in the pipeline. I want to make sure you know to go to Dr. Nathan Bryan’s website and use the coupon code LTH as in Learn True Health for the amazing discount he’s giving all the listeners. You can go there by going to Look for the show notes of today’s podcast to get all of the details of all the links for Dr. Nathan Bryan. Please come join the Facebook group if you haven’t already. It’s a very supportive group. We’ve got thousands of listeners there who love asking questions, answering them, and sharing their information, experiences, and testimonials. You can use the search function in the Facebook group. We’ve had the Facebook group for years. You can use the search function and dig through and read so many resources. There are so many wonderful resources in the Facebook group. And you might not know this, but you can go to, my website and use the search function there as well. So we’re coming up on 500 episodes soon. 

We have a lot of resources there. You can read the transcripts of the interviews as well. Should you want to peruse through other topics. We cover everything from emotional health, mental health, spiritual health, energetic health, and physical health. Even episodes on lifestyle and improving lifestyle, improving building healthy habits that stick and decreasing anxiety. All kinds of wonderful topics to explore in 

Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you love. My goal is to help as many people as possible to Learn True Health. Unfortunately, there is suffering that is not mandatory. Suffering is optional. That’s why I want to help people who are suffering as I suffered for so many years because the doctors I went to didn’t have the tools to help me. The doctors on my show, the holistic doctors, have the tools. They get the results. So I bring people on the show who get results that you don’t need to suffer anymore. So your mom, your dad, your sister, your friends, and your children don’t need to suffer anymore. 

And it’s a matter of finding the information, finding the right doctors, and applying it to lives. And that’s why I’m so grateful that you continue to share my podcasts with those you care about because together, we can help end suffering. So suffering shouldn’t be mandatory. It should be optional. There’s so much information out there. People have reversed Diabetes, reversed cancer, and reversed heart disease. People have reversed that they’ve suffered from reversed depression and addiction. They have done that. And we can help those you care about. We have the resources. So I suffered for so many years until I found holistic medicine and applied it to my life. I found the doctors that help and that’s why I’m doing what I’m doing. We can take this information to those we care about and help them heal and help them no longer suffer. So let’s end the suffering of those we care about. Continue to share this information. If you have any feedback and if you have any doctors you want me to interview that helped you, I love to hear from you. Come to join in the Facebook group and let me know. Come and feel free to email me at [email protected]. We’d love to hear from you. Thank you so much. Enjoy and have a wonderful rest of the day.


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Ashley James & Dr. Eben Alexander


  • Understanding Gateway Valley on Dr. Eben’s life
  • What is Earthworm’s eye view
  • Interpretation of Near-Death Experience (NDE) and Shared Death Experience
  • What is the Coherence Technique of HeartMath Institute
  • What is Binaural Beat

NDE or near-death experience, for some people, is an uncomfortable topic to listen to or understand. Some testify to it being able to experience it first hand themselves, and our guests for today, Dr. Eben Alexander and Karen Newell, will be sharing some more insights about NDE, as well as with The Mysteries of Consciousness, Death, Eternal Nature of the Soul, Afterlife, Heaven itself on their personal perspective.


Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. If you listen to the last episode with Dr. William Davis, Episode 476, we talked about a very specific strain of really healthy bacteria for the gut, Lactobacillus reuteri, and its many benefits. He shares how to culture it that you can get all the benefits, including a natural antidepressant, and helps even people with lifelong insomnia. He had shared that his sleep problems are lifelong sleep problems recovered after starting to eat the Lactobacillus reuteri. A yogurt that takes 36 hours at 100 degrees to culture and he uses cow dairy. Because my whole family is allergic to cow dairy, and we’re dairy-free. I’ve been experimenting with the different methods of using it. I made the most delicious batch and best batch yet. I was so excited that I wrote out the recipe and put it in the Facebook group. The Learn True Health Facebook group has the non-dairy recipe for making the Lactobacillus reuteri, which an antidepressant. It helps with sleep, increases joy, and stabilizes mood. It helped me tremendously, and I suffered from post-traumatic stress attacks in the last few months. Since eating the lactobacillus reuteri, I learned from Dr. William Davis and it all has in his book. You can listen to the last episode to get that information.

I want to tell you if you’re dairy-free and you’ve wanted to try his lactobacillus reuteri recipe, I’ve found a way to make it so delicious. I’ve tried with soy and it tastes really bad but it worked. I got all the benefits from it, but it didn’t taste great. Then I made it with coconut, which also did not taste great. I didn’t even want to eat it, but it still worked.

Then I tried to make water kefir which was unsuccessful, and I’m going to look into what I can do to see and I still want to try to make a drink out of it. Then I made it with organic raw cashews, and it was successful. So I laid out everything I did and put it in the Facebook group. Come and join the Learn True Health Facebook group. If you can’t find the post, just use the search function in the Facebook group and search for yogurt or the word cashew or Lactobacillus reuteri and you’ll find it there.

I hope you enjoyed today’s interview. It’s a bit different. Sometimes we do episodes that aren’t about physical health. We’ve done episodes about addiction, mental health, and emotional health and occasionally, we also cover spiritual health. I think it’s really important to have this attitude of no stone left unturned. Keep our minds so open that our brains would fall out. That was one of my favorite sayings. I learned about 14 years ago from a man I was listening to his podcast. He would cover topics so far out there, even for me. It helped me realize when we expand our minds and get into the learning state.

Being open to what we don’t know that doesn’t invalidate our belief system, like I’m learning different spiritual beliefs, wouldn’t make me less Christian. I still have very strong rooted beliefs in my spiritual practices, but understanding other people and other systems help me better understand the world. If we can gain a deeper foothold into our health by taking in new information and seeing the world through other eyes, that is a positive thing.

In today’s interview, we have a neurosurgeon who has documented a near-death experience. His brain was so sick that it could not have been performing the hallucinations or the visions that he was having. He had a one in a billion chance of surviving. He was so incredibly sick. All the doctors were amazed when he came back to life when his 10-year-old son was standing there begging him to come back to life and then he did. After seven days of being in a coma, his brain was absolutely beyond damaged. So the doctors were saying– well, okay, pull the plug, let’s let him go, that would be a humane thing to do.

He shares his story and his adventures since where he has been studying near-death experiences and sees that there are millions, in fact, documented near-death experiences that all have very similar qualities. So we can take that and look at our own lives and how we’re living our own life now. I think this is a positive message for humanity.

In today’s interview, if you don’t have any spiritual beliefs, it’s going to be beautiful. It won’t challenge anything, but for those who are strongly rooted in certain religions, it might not align with your religion, and that’s okay, too. This episode isn’t meant to change anyone’s beliefs about their religion. It complements because what it shows us, God is love. The infinite source of creation is there with a love that has been the documented experience of millions of people who’ve had near-death experiences, which is fascinating. We explore this topic. We also explore tools that can help people who are in anxiety and depression, feeling disconnected, and feel they’ve lost their purpose.

Please share this episode with those who would benefit from being uplifted. At the beginning of the interview, I shared that yesterday was the anniversary of my daughter’s birth and death. Last year, I faced that question– where’s my daughter? What happens to us when we pass and a close family member of mine is in their final moments of life right now? We’ve been facing hospice care for the last few months, helping with that. My husband’s been doing hospice care. Looking at our family and our life from that lens, this time on Earth is short. I hope that everyone listening comes away after listening to this interview feeling uplifted and feeling inspired to live the best life. No matter how long or short it is, leave a positive impact on the world, know that you’re loved, and focus on gratitude.


[00:07:45] Ashley James:  Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 477. I am so excited for today’s guests. We have on the show two amazing people, Dr. Eben Alexander and Karen Newell. This is perfect in divine timing. As far as I’m concerned, this is the feedback I got after doing this podcast for six years now. The feedback I get from my listeners is that I’ve been searching for this information. I just looked in the last week and then boom– your podcast came up or I was having this problem with my child and the next episode that came out was the answer to my problem. Many times there’s this divine timing, although I typically have about ten or so interviews in the hopper to edit and publish. I feel guided when and what to publish. It’s like I’m told– okay, now’s the time for this topic that needs to be learned. Everyone needs to hear about this next topic. Its divine timing can be for the listeners, but sometimes the divine timing is for me too, because interviews will happen in my life right as I need them. I can’t tell you how many times this happened to me and where it was the problem I was going through. It just so happened that the interview was scheduled for the right time.

A very close family member of mine is in the final hours of their life right now. He’s been in hospice care for months and to have this interview be today even though we had to reschedule it, who was rescheduled to be at this moment. Where we’re all questioning what happens after we die? When we’re stuck with this realization, we’re not going to be here forever, which is motivating to live your life to the fullest now and do the best work we can while we’re here in this earthly realm. So what happens after we die? Do we just decompose? Is that it, or is there more?

What I love, our guests today have so much to share in this realm. The other piece of the divine timing for me in this particular interview was yesterday. I celebrated with my family the birth and death of my daughter. It was our first anniversary. This whole last year, I’ve been faced with grief and death and thinking about where we go when we die. Where’s my daughter? She’s not here. Where is she? Is there an afterlife? I’ve always had the knowledge of believing I was raised and I was Christian. I’ve had a very strong feeling that I’ve felt the presence of God with me. But not everyone hasn’t had that experience in their life.

To come from a scientific standpoint and in scientific observation, it’s very helpful to get a different perspective. I think today it’s going to be really exciting for everyone and this is something that we all have two things in common. We’re all born and we’re all going to die. That’s like if we can just sit around and go. It doesn’t matter where we were born, who we were born to. We all have these two things in common. There are a few more things in common like we all need to breathe and drink water. We start to see that we have a lot of common ground, but the fact is, we’re all faced with this sense of our own mortality and questions about what happens to the afterlife.

Welcome to the show, guys. I’m really excited to have you here today.


[00:11:45] Dr. Eben Alexander: Ashley, thank you so much for having us on. It’s great to be here.


[00:11:49] Karen Newell: Yes. I’m looking forward to this conversation.


[00:11:51] Ashley James: Absolutely. Dr. Alexander, your first book, I believe, was Proof of Heaven, then you wrote the Map of Heaven and Living in a Mindful Universe, of course with Karen. Could you both share what happened and what led you to this point you were authoring these books? I know there are some pretty big stories you have to share.


[00:12:23] Dr. Eben Alexander: Well, of course, it all started with the experience I had back in November of 2008. At that time, I was a 54-year-old neurosurgeon. I’d spent 15 years teaching neurosurgery at Harvard Medical School thought I had some idea of how the brain, mind, and consciousness work. Then I had this extraordinary experience. It was one that absolutely should have killed me, severe gram-negative bacteria, meningoencephalitis. So I go into all the medical details in the book, Proof of Heaven.

Luckily, there’s also a medical case report published ten years after my coma by three doctors not involved in my care. Who went a lot further than I did in assessing my medical records, analyzing them, and making two major conclusions. One is that my brain was documented to be way too ill to have supported any dream or hallucination that was not possible given the extent of my illness. The other thing was that I spent a week in a coma due to this severe and very rare and adults of bacterium, Indigo encephalitis.

My doctors had estimated early in the week, and I had a 10% chance of survival. By the end of the week, only a 2% chance with no chance of recovery. That’s why on that Sunday morning, day seven of coma, they recommended just stopping the antibiotics and letting nature take its course. But, of course, that’s when I came back to this world. But the point that the case report doctors were making is that my recovery was miraculous. The medical peer reviewers at the Journal of Nervous and Mental Diseases published it. The case report in September 2018 challenged the doctors who wrote it and said, how do you explain this? This case is absurd. This kind of patient doesn’t end up making a full recovery.

That’s when they said, well, because he had a near-death experience, he was gifted with this miraculous recovery. And the peer-reviewing medical scientists said, okay, that’s good enough for us, and they published it. The reason why the doctors who wrote the case report knew of other cases, for example, Anita Moorjani, who had advanced stage four lymphoma, a profound near-death experience, and then she came back from all that and cured cancer. Likewise, Mary C. Neal, an orthopedic surgeon, had an over 30-minute warm water drowning and then recovered from that completely. So anyway, that’s the main point for all of us because in Learning True Health, truly, the power of this kind of mind over matter healing here even goes far beyond the placebo effect is something available to all of us. And that’s one of the main reasons I’ve shared my story.


[00:15:07] Ashley James: That’s so beautiful. We now understand your background. Karen, where do you come into play with all this?


[00:15:16] Karen Newell: Well, I met Eben about three years after his coma and this is before any of his books had come out. We were at a workshop learning how to use sound to get into expanded states of consciousness and I heard that he had a near-death experience. I’ve met others who’d had near-death experiences. Just to start a conversation, since I didn’t know his story, I went right to the heart of the matter. I said, what was the big lesson you learned? What was the big thing you came back with? Because near-death experiencers always come back with some usually deep personal lesson.

He looked at me and said that the brain doesn’t create consciousness, and I was confused. I said, well, why would anyone think that it does. When we met, Eben came from this very materialist background where he thought it was birth to death and nothing more. So the physical world is all that exists, and everything else is just an illusion. I was coming from the opposite like you described when I was young. I just had this knowing many of us do, and we have this knowing that we’ve been here before. This isn’t just the beginning, and we may come back again. Certainly, this idea of a soul to me was very certain in my mind, and it wasn’t through any specific religious teachings.

Although, like you, I was raised Christian, it just came from my own kind of inner understanding. When Eben said the brain doesn’t create consciousness, I never thought the brain created consciousness. I thought that consciousness was what we are, or a soul consciousness, energy, spirit. That’s where we realized we were coming from opposite ends of the spectrum and Eben had just learned this profound lesson through his direct personal experience. That’s what intrigued him and I was taken aback when he said the most profound lesson he learned had to do with science. To him, this evidence could end the entire worldview belief system of reductive materialism. So I asked him, and I said, didn’t you experience love? What about the love? Wouldn’t that maybe be a more profound personal lesson? And he said, well, yes, I definitely experienced that love, but you can’t bring that back here.

It’s so intense and overwhelming on Earth. It’s not possible to experience that kind of love. So I looked at him again, a little confused. And I said, well, I’ve experienced that love without a near-death experience through spiritual, meditative experiences that I cultivated intentionally. I had experienced the love that many of these near-death experiencers talk about. That’s what intrigued Eben and he said–Oh, my gosh, and so you can tell just from that information, how many areas we had to discuss in order to find that common ground that we felt when we met?


[00:18:24] Ashley James: Can you share any details you remember from your near-death experience?


[00:18:30] Dr. Eben Alexander: Yes, there’s a tremendous amount to the story, but just too abbreviated for this discussion. It’s important to point out that one of the atypical features of my near-death experience was that I was amnesic and had no memory of Eben Alexander’s life. I had no words, no language, no knowledge of Earth as the universe, and it really was an empty slate. So I realized in the months after my coma that was absolutely necessary for me to learn some of the deeper lessons of the journey. It had to have some of those atypical features for me to avoid rejecting it out of hand is impossible to make sense of. Then the journey itself and this amnesic state started in what I call the earthworm’s eye view, a very primitive course, a kind of unresponsive realm. It was like being in dirty jello. So there came this spinning malady of light that opened like a portal and led up into this rich, ultra-real Gateway Valley, where I found myself next.

The Gateway Valley would be the kind of realm where all of us would reunite with our higher souls, with souls of departed loved ones, go through life reviews, and then make plans for the next incarnations. All that kind of thing. But in my world in this Gateway Valley, I was a speck of awareness on a butterfly wing. There were millions of other butterflies looping and spiraling and vast formations. There was an incredibly beautiful landscape down below us. That was a meadow surrounded by forests with waterfalls and the crystal blue pools, thousands of beings dancing. They were all dressed in very simple but very colorful garb.

All of the festivities I witnessed there, including all the rich plant life with no signs of death or decay, were being fueled. Because up above are these floating orbs of angelic choirs emanating chants and anthems and hymns that were just thundering through my awareness and completely enlivened that entire scene. That’s when I recognized that I wasn’t alone on the butterfly wing.

A beautiful spiritual guide was a young woman with sparkling blue eyes, high cheekbones, a broad forehead, and a broad smile. She never said a word. She didn’t have to. Her deep emotional truth came straight into my awareness, telepathically and emotionally. That message, I think, was the central message I was to bring back to this world through all fellow beings. You are deeply loved and cherished forever. You have nothing to fear. You’re deeply cared for. I can’t tell you how refreshing and reassuring that was at that time.

At that point, I was aware of all of the lower four-dimensional space-time, this material world collapsing down all of that spiritual realm of the Gateway Valley, including a different ordering of causality, then I call deep time. That’s what allows for things like life reviews, which are not just remembering events of your life but reliving them in a detailed fashion.

I witnessed all that stuff collapsing as the angelic choirs provided yet another musical portal to higher and higher levels. That portal led me up into what I call the core. The core was a complete resolution of all dualities and kinds of paradoxes of this existence, into that oneness with the Divine. An infinitely loving healing force that God forces that so many have encountered.

Over thousands of years, I would say that those encounters are the basis of all of our great religions, from prophets and mystics. I’ve realized that even though when I came back to this world, people who’ve read Proof of Heaven will realize, I called that deity alm. Because that was the sound, I heard the resonance in this infinity and eternity. That’s what I brought back and I realized that it’s a waste of time to say whether this is God or Allah, Brahman, Vishnu, Jehovah, Yahweh, Great Spirit, whatever you want to call it. So there’s some profound agreement about the love, compassion, mercy, and acceptance of that infinitely loving source of our very conscious awareness. That’s what I realized in this core realm.

I was told there would teach you many things, but you’re not here to stay. You’ll be going back. But, of course, all of those mini-lessons about reincarnation, the eternity of the soul about the fact that we’re sharing one mind. All of that was presented to me in this powerful passion. But then I would tumble back down to that earthworm eye view. That’s what I came to realize by remembering the musical notes. This melody would conjure up that light portal back into the Gateway Valley, and I always experienced that same beautiful guardian angel on the butterfly wing and different lessons that would happen in that Gateway Valley. But always, I would ascend back up through the angelic light portal into the core realms, that oneness with the Divine.

There finally came a time when they weren’t kidding, and I could no longer conjure up the musical notes of the melody to bring me that passageway up out of the earth worm’s eye view. To say I was sad at that point would be an understatement. I also realized a trust in the universe at that point. That’s also when I witnessed six faces that turned out to be what are called vertical time anchors. Five of them were physically present in the ICU room for the last 24 hours, and I was in a coma. One of them was Susan Ranches, a family friend I’d first met back in the early 1970s in freshman college English class. So many decades later, my family knew that she had done channeling work with coma patients, which helped some of them return to life. My family asked her to intervene. She channeled to me from 120 miles away. Her presence was clear to me as the physically present people in the ICU room.

I had first-hand experience of the absolute reality of channeling, which I would have denied to even existed before my coma. But, of course, I’ve grown a lot from this coma, and at any rate, it was at that point that the six-face that I saw were the ones that brought me back to this world. That was the face of a 10-year-old boy, who was my son Bond. Even though I said, my amnesia was still very active. I had no idea who this being was. But it was on day seven of coma.

Sunday morning, the doctors had just till the family conference, saying it was time to withdraw medical care and let me go. When Bond overheard that, even though they protected him from the worst news during the week, he ran down the hallway. I was lying there on my ventilator as I had been for the last seven days. He pulled up my eyelids, and I promise you, I did not see him with the eyes. I didn’t hear him with my ears. But he was pleading with me– Daddy, you’re going to be okay as if somehow that would make it. And now, all of a sudden, deep in the spiritual realms, I had assumed that this whole adventure could continue or cease. It didn’t matter. All of a sudden, I realized there was another soul involved. I had a tremendous responsibility to him. I did not understand his words, but I could sense that I knew I had to come back to this world from his pleading.

When I did, within the next few hours, opening my eyes, struggled, and fought the ventilator. That’s when the doctor pulled the breathing tube out. To their shock, I was coming back and saying words and showing some neurologic signs of progress. Although I still didn’t recognize loved ones at the bedside, my mother, sisters, and sons, those memories came back very rapidly. As did language over hours and the next few days, all my semantic knowledge of cosmology, physics, and neuroscience came back over about two months.

During that time, of course, I was wrestling back and forth with how to interpret my experience. When I first tried to tell my doctors about it, they said we couldn’t even understand how you’re coming back to us. But you can forget about it because a dying brain plays all kinds of tricks. My first statement to my son, Eben the fourth, who was majoring in neuroscience at the time and came home two days after I got out of the hospital, I told him it was way too real to be real. That’s how I interpreted the experience in the context my doctors tell me the dying brain plays all kinds of tricks. But over the next weeks and months, going back to the hospital, talking about doctors, going through medical records, neurologic exams, scans, all of that. I realized that my brain was in no shape to harbor any dream or hallucination, much less the most extraordinary, detailed, memorable, and meaningful experience of my entire life. How did that happen when my brain was so demonstrably offline? That’s why the medical community takes my case so seriously. You find it probably mentioned, for example, in the recent contest concerning the best scientific evidence for survival of consciousness beyond permanent bodily death.


[00:27:32] Ashley James: This experience that you’ve had and other people have had, it’s not common. A lot of people who are in comas, not everyone has the experience you had. But some have the medication, and it was the coma, and it was brain damage, and just things are firing off weird. Someone could explain it like that, but this isn’t common. If that were the case, then everyone in a coma or with brain damage or an infection in their brain would have the same experience?


[00:28:16] Dr. Eben Alexander:  Well, this is the beauty of my case. The facts when you line them up from a medical perspective, as that case report does. They make it crystal clear that this brain could not have had any experience. There was no way for it to support a dream or hallucination because of the extensive damage to the neocortex. Then, of course, you’ve got the healing to explain. The healing completely defies medical expectations. There are no other cases of this kind of severe meningitis resulting in somebody who makes a full recovery. So that’s why this kind of exceptional case makes the point.

But to get back to your original statement, it turns out that NDE is quite common. Probably 15 to 20% of people with cardiac arrest have some elements of a true near-death experience. They’re insanely common when you start to look at all of it. So when you follow Gallup polls, that kind of information suggests 3 to 5% of people on Earth have had NDE. Four hundred million people or more have had NDE. Their commonality is far more striking than that they don’t happen to everyone.


[00:29:29] Ashley James: You call it a near-death experience. A friend of mine was pronounced legally dead and then came back to life and shared his experience with me of what we don’t know what to call heaven paradise. The Bible says we go to paradise first and heaven later. Wherever he was, he was clearly in the presence of God. He describes that tremendous love that is so intense, beautiful, and divine. He says it was like God is a son, that we’re all orbiting around his experience. His friend, whom he had met, had committed suicide and was distraught about that.

He met up with his friend, and his friend said that his guilt kept him from getting close to his love. It kept him like Pluto is like way out there orbiting but just not close enough, and that he was wrestling with the guilt of what he had done. And the hurt that he had caused his friends and family. So my friend ended up having a near-death experience again, saying that his friend had resolved it in the spiritual realm, had resolved and healed from it. Just these interesting experiences that people are having, and there are commonalities like everyone describes that love. Intense love is the sensation of being close to God and being close to our Creator. So that it is, it’s intense love.

Karen, you say that through your spiritual practices you have tapped into that and have experienced it. Do you teach this in the book Living in a Mindful Universe?


[00:31:26] Karen Newell: Somewhat, you can teach with your words but the experience of love must be generated as an experience. When we just talk about it, it doesn’t have the same sort of impact. Yes, I teach practices where people can start cultivating these kinds of experiences. I know for me, at first, it wasn’t easy. I grew up in a family where we were not demonstrative when it comes to our love. We weren’t saying I love you and all of that. We were a perfectly normal family. There wasn’t abuse going on or anything like that, but I wasn’t used to expressing love. As I got older, my parents had been divorced. I had a whole idea about how love is not necessarily always successful. I just was so curious, and eventually, when I started reading about it, I could only understand it intellectually, which is just not the same as the experience.

It was the work of HeartMath Institute that brought me to where I am now. That’s because they’ve been studying the heart for decades. They find that the heart emits an electromagnetic field. It expands and contracts around our body, and the brain also has one. The heart’s electromagnetic field is much, much bigger than the brain. The electric part is 60 times greater, and the magnetic part is 3000 times greater than the brain. So it expands and contracts around your body based on your emotional state.

Emotions like love, happiness, and joy will create a very large electromagnetic field, whereas emotions like grief, sadness, or anger might create a small electromagnetic field. What’s interesting is that this electromagnetic field seems to influence people around you. Whatever emotions are inside of you are the ones that are being radiated by your heart naturally. So I took this very seriously. I don’t want to have anything in my heart that might offend someone else. I was thinking mostly about my family and friends. I don’t want to affect them in a bad way.

I started to learn some of the HeartMath techniques, and they have one called Coherence Technique. It’s as simple as generating a feeling of gratitude in your heart, and it sounds simple. Let me generate a feeling of gratitude, and all I could do was generate thoughts of gratitude. I could think of things I was grateful for, but it didn’t change how I felt. I took the advice given and had to go over several different kinds of sessions where I had memories from my past. What made me feel joyful? What can I be grateful for? It’s going to be different for each of us. It was a memory of a stray dog my mom had taken in and turned out to be my childhood dog through college. She ended up having puppies underneath my bed just a short time after we adopted her, and for me, it was a magical moment. My mom probably thought it was a big mess, and I thought it was just beautiful, living, cute, little, lively creatures right there under my bed. And my dog trusted me to have them under my bed, not my brothers.

It was to memory, and from there, I remembered all the dogs I had ever known and loved. That connection with dogs and animals started to allow me to feel this flicker, this warm, glowing flicker in my heart. I thought— Oh my gosh, that’s it, and then it went away. So I had to go to a little practice. Eventually, when you’re able to generate these feelings of gratitude, you can have the intention to attract that love that exists from the source, from God, from the universe, whatever you want to say.

Once you’re able to generate it from within, it expands, and you attract this greater love. It is a framework of how it works, but that’s exactly how it worked for me. Everyone can learn how to do this, and we feel that love is just as overwhelming as your friend was driving. I can’t know if it’s the same as when in your near-death experience or feeling it may not be as intense. But wow, it’s certainly wonderful to feel. If I’m just feeling a fraction, five or 10% of what they’re feeling is worth it. So you feel this warm connection to something greater. You feel like you are always well in the universe that nothing can be wrong even if you’re in the middle of hardships, and all seems to make sense.

The love that I feel is our birthright when you think about the term making love. Ideally, we’re making love when a baby is created. I love how Eben puts it, and he calls them homes for souls. When you create a baby from the love between two individuals, you’re creating and making love. You’re creating a home for a soul to live in. I always think it wouldn’t be just an ideal world if that’s how every baby was created. But if not, we can still rediscover that love even if we’re not gifted with it throughout our lives.


[00:37:18] Ashley James: My husband had a similar experience growing up. Similar to that, there wasn’t a lot of demonstrative affection and love in his household. His dad just said to my husband in his 50s, just two months ago, said I love you for the first time. There’s a lot of emotional healing going on. In my life and my family’s life, just imagine being 50. So what is my husband,53? For the first time hearing, I love you, and his dad never said it to anyone. He didn’t see his dad give you a handshake, not a hug. These last few months, there’s been a lot of love and a lot of discovery of gratitude. So when our daughter was born and died, we turned to gratitude to focus on what we’re grateful for, or you’re focusing on what we don’t have.

A lot of people get wrapped up, especially in the material world. If only I had that Tesla. If only I had a house and only I had a million dollars. If only I had a better job. If only I had a better body or this or that. If only I had this carrot on a stick that we get wrapped up in. It’s the chasing of what we don’t have. I find it interesting to look at other religions or spiritual practices like Buddhism style or Zen. They say attachment creates suffering, and I would say attachment to what you don’t have to create suffering because the things I do have them attached to if I can stay focused on the gratitude around what I have. So what I have now, be grateful for what I have that makes me feel so much joy and thankfulness. That’s a prayer that I love to do. I take God if you don’t know what to pray for. It’s like we’re not asking Santa. It’s not like a Christmas list. I don’t want a pony. So when we’re praying, we could just be grateful. It could just be listing off everything you’re grateful for every day. Just thank You, God, for what you’ve given me. Thank You for what I have. Thank You for the help I do have.


[00:40:00] Karen Newell: You bring up an interesting point that we often look for objects outside of us to meet our needs. One way that we like to teach intention. If you want to create something in your life, it’s not to think– oh, that Cadillac or Tesla, whatever it is. But it’s what is the feeling you would have when you have that thing. Instead, focus on the feeling you’d like to feel. Generate that feeling. Just imagine you already have that thing that you want. What does it feel like?

When you generate that feeling instead of a thought of a particular thing you want, somehow the universe seems to know how to provide you with whatever will continue for that feeling to go on. Sometimes we don’t know if that Tesla may not be the thing that makes us feel that way. Maybe it’s a vacation to South Africa. Who knows? Sometimes, when we get an attachment to things can be so damaging because they may, even once we finally get them, not satisfy us in the way we had hoped. So it’s just a different way.


[00:41:05] Dr. Eben Alexander: I just pointed out one of the deepest lessons from a near-death experience. I think most near-death experiencers would agree that the true currency of a soul in terms of successfully navigating and growing through this life is all about relationships. You’ve been able to share love and kindness and compassion and mercy with others. The more successfully you can harvest the love of the universe for all that is. This focus on material things definitely falls away after a near-death experience because we learn truly. It’s all about our relationships. The more we can foster that sense of love and kindness and help others, our lives will be better.


[00:41:52] Ashley James:  I did an interview a few years ago with a man traveling the world and studying depression and addiction. He talked about a study where they looked at cultures with the most material possessions and cultures with the least—looking at the level of satisfaction, fulfillment, and joy in one’s life. What I found fascinating is that you think the child with the most toys would be the happiest, and it’s the opposite of the children in South America who have one possession, and that’s a soccer ball, are the happiest. They’re far happier. These families with far less are far happier, more satisfied, feel more grateful, and have less depression than those in North America who have all the possessions we could ever want because they have the one soccer ball.

These kids have one soccer ball, and they get like 15, 20, and 30 friends together to play. It’s the relationships they have. In Latin America, the focus is strongly on the family. Everyone has cousins and aunts and uncles in the family structure, and relationships are important. More important than possessions. In America, culturally, it looks like we value possessions more than relationships. So it’s interesting to shift what we value.


[00:43:35] Dr. Eben Alexander: I would say the whole world of addiction and alcoholism is all about this notion of trying to fill this hole with material goods, material stuff, and substances that give you certain feelings. And what you realize in that addiction and alcoholism were you’re trying to fill a spiritual hole with material stuff. The only way to fill a spiritual hole is a spiritual matter. So growth of [inaudible 00:44:03] soul and a deeper understanding of one’s relationship. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the ego because the ego-mind, that little voice in our head, is not our ally in this journey.

The ego would rather see a toe’s dead and see itself dead that’s why many therapists do a ritual sacrifice. The ego allows it to be reborn in a much healthier kind of higher soul form, and not one so self-centered because that ego can lead us into tremendous toxicity, trying to satisfy its needs. The more we come to recognize this kind of bigger picture of who we are, it’s all about relationships, and it’s all about love and sharing kindness and compassion and mercy with others. The more satisfied we are with our lot in life. That’s done with gratitude, and forgiveness gives us tremendous tools to overcome most of the apparent hardships that human beings face.


[00:45:48] Ashley James: In the early days after your coma, did you begin to look at other examples? Can you share some other stories that struck you that made you realize others have had the same experience? You did mention two or three people shared the stories of what surprised you as you were in the early days you were doing your research and understanding that what you had was a visit to heaven.


[00:45:32] Dr. Eben Alexander: One of the people common things to encounter in near-death experience or just the dying experience in hospice care, in terminal patient care. What are you encountering in the soul of the departed loved one? In fact, for me, that means you’ve got an authentic experience right there. But, of course, the [inaudible 00:45:52]coma has said that the hallucinations you’re encountering as a whole of a departed loved one. I now know those are very real encounters; in fact, that’s imprimatur proving it to be real. Many other features of NDEs are quite common. The notion of going from darkness into light is sometimes described through a tunnel. Certainly, encountering that infinitely loving and healing God force is something that many NDEs involve. They also can involve encountering religious figures, although that’s much less common. For example, encountering Jesus Christ or Muhammad or something like that is not very common. Certainly, the encounters with the souls of departed loved ones can be very evidential to help someone realize that it’s all about relationships and that our souls do not die.

The biggest gift to me in this whole experience of sharing my story publicly is that thousands of people share their experiences with me. That kind of thing has proven the reality of this. We shared the resonance and overlap of these stories in the second book, The Map of Heaven. In our third book, Living in Mindful Universe, we go the distance to make this argument that science and spirituality are coming together. So the only way for them to move forward is by this kind of shared acknowledgment of rehab of spiritual reality. So that is one where our minds are all connected. That’s one of the deepest pieces of evidence for the reality of this afterlife, and all that is this notion of one mind.

I would say that the game has just changed dramatically in the last year about this question of an afterlife. Robert Bigelow, an aerospace engineer in Las Vegas, put up $1.8 million in prize money and challenged scientists who study this question– what is the best evidence for survival of consciousness after permanent bodily death? He received over 200 essays written by groups studying the question of the afterlife for more than five years from a scientific perspective. The 29 winning essays are available to the public for free right now, at

If you go and read the first place essay by Jeffrey Mishlove, who spent more than half a century studying this evidence, you’ll realize, of course, there’s an afterlife. We don’t understand how it works yet. Certainly not going to fit into you all kinds of religious or scientific wishes of the day. The more we investigate and the more we find out its reality, not only in the afterlife realm. Many of those essays also discuss the scientific evidence for reincarnation.

Reincarnation was never anything I considered as part of reality before my coma. My coma journey showed me very clearly that our souls come back again and again. In this process of continued refinement, but given the importance of relationships, you never have to worry that a loved one who is reincarnated before they would be available to you at your own passage. Some people worry a lot about that. That’s where that whole notion of deep time and a different causal ordering from this spiritual perspective is so important to get. So if you go to and start reading those essays, you’ll find a tremendous amount of evidence. Reading those essays, no rational person will ever doubt the reality of the afterlife and reincarnation again.

It just means we need a much bigger theater of operations to understand and explain the brain-mind relationships and the nature of reality that we seem to witness as human beings.


[00:49:49] Ashley James:  In science, because of your latest book, you talk about how science is now catching up to the spiritual in understanding it. Is there anything from your book scientifically that helps us better understand the spiritual realm or the afterlife?


[00:50:12] Dr. Eben Alexander: Yes, we go into great detail in the book Living in a Mindful Universe to do two major things. One is to make the scientific case for the primacy of consciousness of philosophical opposition, known as objective idealism. I think the whole world of quantum physics has been poised to acknowledge that reality for a long time. And the founding fathers of the field sifted the primacy of consciousness and the oneness of mind. In fact, in the second place winning essay Dr. Pim Van Lommel wrote a beautiful scientific explanation based on NDEs that he studied for over decades as a cardiologist.

Towards the end of this essay, he makes the argument for the one mind. We’re all sharing this one consciousness of [inaudible 00:51:02] to top-down calls of principles of the universe. He lists four scientific resources for this one-mind idea. One is the book, One Mind, by our friend and colleague, Dr. Larry Dossey, which came out in 2013. A wonderful expert vision of this oneness of mind between human beings that we share with other life forms, too—a very important concept.

He also mentioned the book Spiritual Science by Steve Taylor. He mentioned a Beautiful Paper by Bernardo Kastrup. I think it’s in the Journal of Consciousness studies entitled The Universe in Consciousness. Then he lists our book Living in a Mindful Universe as the fourth major scientific resource of the one mind. I would add Pim Van Lommel’s book, Consciousness Beyond Life. I think those five resources together will give people a full-blown scientific view of this concept of the one mind and how top-down causality from the mental air of the universe explains a tremendous amount of quantum physics about the hard problem of consciousness. So this is an impossible problem for materialism to try and conjure up a way for phenomenal experience to emerge from any arrangement of physical matter like the substance in the brain.

We also go into the apparent unity of consciousness, known as the binding problem in the philosophy of mind. Especially in this discussion of the consilience of supporting the one mind hypothesis for the primordial mind hypothesis, as we call it in our book, Living in a Mindful Universe. All the evidence for nonlocal consciousness comes out of the world of parapsychology. So this is the kind of evidence that I would have dismissed and debunked before my coma out of pure willful ignorance.

I know now that’s a pretty foolish position to take the evidence for things like telepathy, remote viewing, precognition, presentiment, psychokinesis, distance healing, power of prayer, near-death experiences, shared death experiences. These are identical in quality to near-death that happened in very healthy people and past life memories and children suggestive of reincarnation.

You go to— University of Virginia Division of Perceptual Studies. For more than six decades, they’ve accumulated over 2500 cases of past life memories in children, 1700 plus of those cases have been quoted solved. That is the research. They identify the person described as living the previous life of that described by that child. All this evidence is what we cover in Living in a Mindful Universe. It takes a store to a very profound consilience and consolidation of scientific evidence supporting the notion of the one mind. Our souls come back and again in this refinement process towards oneness with the Divine.


[00:54:04] Ashley James: Karen, as you wrote this book with Eben, the Living in a Mindful Universe, I always like to talk to authors because although they are the experts of their book, they’re also the students. To get into that position of learning while you’re researching for your book, I love what unfolds for authors. What unfolded that surprised you the most as you guys wrote this book together?


[00:54:36] Karen Newell:  What unfolded surprised me? Eben is very scientific, as you can hear from how he explains everything. Our goal was to make it accessible to the non-scientific mind while also ensuring that these science-minded people would not be thinking– Oh, you took shortcuts and all of that. I thought science was not something that was my forte and one of the exercises we went through in the book is when Eben did write with a very scientific passion. So I had to understand that goal, and that’s how it would stay in the book.

I learned a lot about quantum physics and the experiments in quantum physics, the double-slit experiment. Everyone always talks about the difference etween a photon and a wave. None of that had been of any interest to me, and I had to learn that. So in the process of doing it, I learned how to describe it in ways that laypeople would understand. That was interesting, a topic that I had avoided for my whole life. Then, suddenly, I was helping to try to explain it so that other people could understand it.

That was a really interesting few months, and we still go through that now. Not as much because I’ve learned so much, but when he’s trying to explain a concept, if I don’t get it, the burden is on him to make sure that I do. That’s been an interesting exercise to bring together the hardcore heavy science into a more accessible format. So that people who are more spirit-minded can access it and understand why it matters in our daily lives. Because of all of these things we can talk about, the philosophers pontificate about the reality of our universe, but when it comes down to it, it’s the experience. Individual people are walking around in this world. So that’s what matters. So that’s what we brought together. For me, that challenge was bringing science in.


[00:57:02] Dr. Eben Alexander: I would simply add that was a huge part of our effort. The book was not just to explain these things from a scientific perspective. But to offer people tools to explore their own life and consciousness because I had come to realize within two years in a coma if I had any hope of understanding the deeper nature of my journey. I had a much more active cultivating, navigating, and exploring my consciousness, which I ended up doing through meditation.

In Living in a Mindful Universe, we also talk about Karen’s work. She’s the co-founder of Sacred Acoustics, and that’s a form of binaural beat brainwave entrainment that I use an hour to a day and have been doing for the last ten plus years. In my own personal exploration, we wanted to share a personal experience with people. The book also has some indicators and information to help people in their own exploration of consciousness.


[00:58:00] Ashley James: I love hearing that a neurosurgeon likes the binaural beats music and uses it. So this is exciting because I’ve loved listening to these different melodies with different wavelengths, and I’ve always found it really helpful. I found this one on YouTube that’s like—come, focus and study for ADHD people, and I put that on. I could focus for like an hour while I was listening to it. It’s just beautiful melodies going back and forth. It helps me focus that I always laugh because it’s like for ADHD people to focus and study. I juggle so many things, I have a kid at homeschool, taking care of everyone and everything in my life, and then I’ve got the podcast. I’m constantly being interrupted by all these other things. So I think it’s my environment that makes me ADHD.


[00:59:04] Karen Newell:  You’re not alone. It’s not just you don’t have to label it as ADHD. We all can use the tools to help us get into a better state of focus you mentioned in these YouTube videos. We create at We create the same type of recordings. Just to caution on YouTube, the audio quality can only be so high when you merry it with a video. You’re not getting the best quality, the best potential to deliver binaural beats. You might want to check out

We have a free download that you can get by entering your email address. We also have something called the whole mind bundle, and it includes recordings that deliver Delta, Theta, and Alpha signals. Those Alpha signals that you’re probably listening to help you get into that more focused state. Theta signals will help you go a little deeper into a more meditative state, and Delta signals will help you sleep. So many, many people listen to these recordings to help them sleep.

So this whole mind bundle it’s available at We use that in a pilot study. A psychiatrist in New York City applied them in her psychiatric practice. She prescribed this set of recordings that people can sometimes listen to flexibly while doing other activities, just like you said. Also, there are shorter recordings that people can use for like 20 minutes a day to help them establish a regular meditative practice.

What she found with Dr. Anna Yusim and then published in the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease in February 2020 was that a 26% reduction in anxiety occurred. People were able to sleep better, focus better, and reduce their anxiety. The control group, the patients in the same practice, did not listen to the recordings but only had regular therapy. Over the same period of about two weeks, they saw a 7% reduction in anxiety. So 26 versus 7% just by adding listening to these recordings.

Even if you’re listening to them to help you focus, they could potentially help to reduce your anxiety. One obvious way is if you’re able to focus and get your work done, you’re not as anxious about getting everything finished. Do they seem to play another role in really helping to relax the brain? Beta is the state we’re in when we’re walking around, talking, and anxious, and that’s a higher state. Binaural Beats are designed to deliver these lower states of awareness by delivering one signal to one year. A slightly different signal to the other ear. The difference between those two frequencies gives you the brainwave state we’re trying to deliver.

So Delta, the border between delta and theta, is right at four hertz. So many of our audio recordings deliver a four-hertz signal that borders between awakening asleep. So this allows you to support the body and profound relaxation, but the mind doesn’t fall asleep. It’s still aware. That’s the meditative space, the hypnagogic state where we can start to release all the emotional traumas, focus on feelings that we want to manifest in our lives, ask questions about problems that we might be having, and get some answers. We can also use that space to do lucid dreaming kind of activities.

It’s also possible to connect with your departed loved ones. Those who have passed from this world are often trying to contact and stay connected to people who are still here living on Earth in their human bodies. So when we are more open to that, when we can get into a relaxed state, we might more readily notice this attention they’re trying to give us.

There are many applications that people use these recordings for, not just focus. Certainly, the focus is one of those primary tasks that we all need help with during the day. Certainly, these days, anxiety, addiction, all of that is just running rampant. So any kind of tool that people can use at the beginning of COVID, that’s right when this study came out. Actually, right when it was published. I wanted to make these recordings available to others right when we entered into these lockdowns when people were panicking and so nervous and upset about what was going on.

I drastically reduced the price of these recordings to $19 for a whole set of nine recordings and a PDF guide that teaches you how to use that. I also made a free option because many people are in financial uncertainty. I didn’t want there to be any barrier at all. So many people have taken us up on that offer, and I feel gratitude towards them because I understand we are all part of one mind or one consciousness and one heart. So I feel that each of us takes the time to quiet the mind, release emotional traumas, focus on that essence of who we truly are, and find that meaning and purpose in our lives. As each person does that, I am so grateful because that contributes to the whole. So this is what I feel every one of us can do to contribute to the whole. We’re not only helping ourselves, but we’re helping everyone else by bringing our health into balance.


[01:05:08] Ashley James: I love it, and thank you so much for making that free for those in financial hardships. I am so grateful for people who are helping people. That experience of being we are all connected, I said that at the beginning. We’re all born, we all die, we have a lot in common, and if we could take on this idea that we’re all part of these raw pieces of the puzzle. I read something once God loves you so much. You’re one of his children. He also loves you so much that he is like your worst enemy. The person that you hate so much. He loves them just as much, and it’s like being a parent with two fighting kids.

If you can look at that person who you despise, maybe because of where they come from, or their background or what they believe in, their different political beliefs or different religious beliefs, or they’re just on the opposite spectrum of one of your values or one of your beliefs. You look at them, and you can’t understand them. You don’t like them as an entire group of people because they’re on the opposite part of the belief system than you. If you can look at those people and get that even though on this plane of existence at this very moment in the mindset and you guys can’t see eye to eye. You might not like each other because of your beliefs and values and whatever it is.

If you can both get that you were born into a family, you all have many things in common. That God loves you. That you are loved, showered with love and gratitude, and can transmute even your worst enemy in your mind. When you realize that this person, as much as you don’t like them or because of their beliefs, you guys have so much more in common than you think. If we could all live that way, we could all look at every one. Imagine if all politicians could look across the other side and go; we have so much in common.

Why don’t we focus on what we have in common and the common good we want to do? Of course, it doesn’t sell headlines. The mainstream media wants to keep us in fear, keeps us like it’s clickbait. Life right now could be social media’s clickbait and everything that is causing turmoil. There have been studies done that prove that things on Facebook and Instagram are increasing suicide among youth. I think suicide is now the second leading cause of death in youth under the age of 24. Mental and emotional health that’s the true pandemic right now. If we look at how many people are on antidepressants and anxiety meds.

I love that you talked about what we’re missing in cultivating spiritual health when we cultivate spiritual health that helps us heal our mental and emotional health. I found a new church. I just love it and have been going several times a week. And that’s where I’ve been doing so much of my emotional healing and working through the post-traumatic stress that I’ve had over the last year. We’re worshiping and praising, and we have so much gratitude. Everyone is in a state of gratitude, and then the whole, there are hundreds of us, and we all feel what’s described as the Holy Spirit. We all feel a connection to God, and it is so intense and so beautiful. It just feels so real.

I understand what you said about how you can practice spiritual experiences, especially with gratitude that gets you in that state of love. I’d love for you guys to talk about– either one of you. What kind of tools could be helpful that you already have mentioned a few? Do you have any more tools that could be helpful for those who are suffering from grief, loss, depression, and anxiety which is something I feel that so many are suffering from right now?


[01:10:05] Karen Newell:  What is one of the very simple tools I often recommend to people is just to imagine that your breath is moving in and out of your heart. You can imagine your breath. A lot of meditative teachers will have you practice imagining what is coming in and out of your left toe. Something anywhere on your body it’s an exercise in moving your awareness. But when you imagine that it’s moving in and out of your heart, it’s filling up a bubble around your body, a little sphere. If you can imagine that your breath moves in and out of you in all directions, this really moves you out of your thinking mind. That’s where your distress is coming from. The heart does not have a linguistic center. Interesting Heart Math will tell you that the heart sends more information to the brain than the brain sends to the heart.

I feel like it’s collecting information out in the world and sending it up to the brain. Then the brain has to assign meaning to it and come up with words to describe it. We can escape those words, that little voice that maybe is telling us we’re not good enough or keeping us in a state of procrastination instead of productivity. Whatever it is, move your awareness to your heart. Imagine your breath is moving in and out of there. That’s a beautiful exercise that can help get people wrapped around it. I will tell you that some addiction doctors have used our free recordings, the alm recordings, right on patients when they’re in distress. They’ll come in, and they’ll be all strung out, and they can’t get them to come to have a conversation. So this doctor will pop the headphones. You have to use headphones to get the full power of these recordings. Put the headphones on the patients, and they just get calm right away. So lots and lots of tools related to the sound and just how you hold your awareness.


[01:12:14] Dr. Eben Alexander: The only other point I was making is a key starting point for people. Kind of new to this is in this kind of meditation, going within what you’re doing is acknowledging that this kind of mental air of the universe is something shared throughout the universe with great influence. The important step to take at the beginning of any such meditation is that one has to realize they are not to identify without running a stream of thoughts in their head. So many people think the running stream of thoughts in their heads is who they are. It’s their identity.

I’ll point out that it is your ego-mind, and that certainly serves some purpose in the general survival of biological systems on Earth. And yet we are far beyond the predator, prey, and dance that involves so much of biology. So that’s no longer humankind of preoccupation. My point is that we can discover that we’re much more than just our physical bodies. So we’re much more than just running a stream of thoughts.

In his book, The Untethered Soul, I love how Michael Singer calls running a stream of thoughts in your head the annoying roommate, and that’s a very important way to look at it because that’s not truly who we are. We can come to much greater discovery by cultivating the sense of connection across the veil with a unified mind with God-consciousness that has the highest and best good for all involved as its primary interest.

There’s something I would paraphrase from Einstein, and he said the true value of this whole depends on how much they’ve liberated themselves from the concept itself. That’s where this ego-mind, this voice in our head, can be so misleading. And Rene Descartes, a renowned French philosopher of hundreds of years ago, said, I think therefore I am. I wish he clarified it a little bit and said, I am aware of my thoughts, and therefore I exist.

That awareness of them, that’s the part that outlasts the death of the body and brain. That’s the part that actually expands when we die. That’s what near-death experiencers tell you: your awareness doesn’t shrink down to nothing as a materialist would postulate. Still, it expands when you’re liberated from the shackles of the physical brain and body. This is something we can all practice through meditation. Flipping these surly bonds of Earth in the material realm and the apparent here now and this kind of sense of self. We all have the freedom within meditation and centering prayer to escape from that kind of false imprisonment of the illusion of being isolated as an individual physical being. We’re much more than that, and that’s really one of the deepest lessons to start within this adventure is exploring that shared consciousness.


[01:15:20] Ashley James: Now, you lost your sense of self. You had mentioned that it’s like your ego wasn’t there, you didn’t know who you were, but that needed to happen so you would learn and accept what was going on? I’ve heard of near-death experiences where people didn’t know who they were, and they did see fellow members who had passed or met Jesus and knew who they were.


[01:10:50] Dr. Eben Alexander: Right.


[01:15:52] Ashley James: Is your experience uncommon that people don’t know who they are? Or are there some experiences people do and some don’t know? How can we better understand near-death experiences if this really happens when we die?


[01:16:15] Dr. Eben Alexander: I think the important thing to point out is that near-death experiences, as we said earlier, probably 400 million people around the world patterns are very common. And when you study them, you find a lot of commonalities, and you’re exactly right. Most people go into this with full memory of their lives. All this tells me is if my experience was incomplete, if I’m going to die, I would have gone on to that next level of going through the life review. Now it’s important to point out, though, that I did witness life reviews with a very powerful passion, even though I cannot have an Eben Alexander life review because of my amnesia.

The way I saw them, and these both occur in separate passages through the core realm, first was what I call the Flying Fish analogy, and that was basically where I experienced becoming flying fish. And when we’re down in the water, we are dumbed down. We didn’t have all the knowledge of our higher soul. We were buying into this material incarnation and that’s it. It gives a skin in the game. But then when I popped up out of the water into the air, as flying fish, I was in that space between lives and reunited with a higher soul and all that kind of thing.

Now, this next vision was even grander and happened on a separate passage through the core; it’s what I call the Indras Net Vision. That was this extraordinary higher dimensional network of interconnected threads, and the threads represented soul lines of an individual soul from multiple incarnations approaching this incredible enlightenment and oneness with the Divine. In that particular vision, that ultimate goal was reflected as this kind of golden center to this web network to which we were all kind of attached and working our way through these incarnations. The life review and reincarnation were very clearly presented to me in these visions. 

Now the important thing to stress is months after my coma, and this is something we explained in Living in a Mindful Universe. If I had scripted my NDE first and foremost, my father would be there. My doctor father was a world-renowned neurosurgeon. He was very important in my life. It passed over four years before my coma. And surprising to me, especially because I’ve never had NDE in the literature before after my NDE, at the advice of my older son majoring in neuroscience, who knew every time you revisit a memory, you change it. So he told me to write everything that I could remember from my NDE before I read anybody else’s NDE. That was important information. I wrote 20,000 words over six weeks or so. 

And then, I started reading the NDE literature and that’s when I was totally blown away by a lot of similarities. I was surprised by the absence of my father and we explained that especially in the third book, Living in Mind for Universe, how he appeared to me in meditation two and a half years after my coma. It made it very clear that if he had been apparent to me as he could, he could not be apparent to me in my NDE. Despite a one in ten million diagnosis from an E.coli bacteria of meningitis in an adult, despite a one in a billion recovery, if my father had been the one on there, I would have been more tempted to dismiss it. So you only see what you want to see all the way out. So it’s a psychological factor, that’s why my guardian angel had to be who she was. Someone deeply important to me in my life. Anyway, that’s kind of the longer version of NDEs, of life reviews, of my father’s presence and discovering the importance of why he couldn’t be there in my original NDE.


[01:20:07] Karen Newell: You touched on how we can know that Eben’s experience or people who have near-death experiencers have the same kind of experience we would have when we actually go on to die. Fortunately, we have data on that. Christopher Kerr is a director and doctor at Hospice Buffalo, and he started doing studies on hospice patients some years ago. He wanted to hear from them directly. So what is it that you’re experiencing as you get closer to death because up until then, it was only clinicians who had reported their observations of what people were going through?

No, actually asked for dying patients themselves and that was brought up at the institutional review board where this is going to be proper. Dr. Kerr explained that these patients are actually benefited by having the opportunity to talk about their experiences. What’s so remarkable is that around 90% of the subjects stated did have what he called End of Life Dreams and Visions. The dreams happen when the subject is asleep. When they’re awake and have these experiences, they’re called visions.

It’s the same type of experience that the subject is usually the same whether you’re awake or asleep, which is so weird for us. People who just have dreams think they’re a little different at any rate. These were very realistic types of dreams. These people reported them to be hyper-real, more real than real, and they would say as if they were actually lit. Which is remarkably exactly how near-death experiencers describe near-death experiencers. Their experiences say that they’re more real than real.

The other thing that happens is that people will say that there are scenes of travel where they know they’re going somewhere, that they’re packing or they’re in a car or bus, and they’re going somewhere. But they don’t necessarily know where they’re going. So the idea that it’s the end is not really brought out in these experiments. The other thing that’s very common in these experiences is that people will start to relive their life.

So when Eben talks about this life review, people in the– let’s say a couple of weeks before they die, say they’re in the hospice center. The first dreams that they started to have are up to their childhood. They’ll stretch or relive childhood events and connect with people they knew back then. They could still be alive, or they could still be dead at this point. But as they get closer to death, the prevalence of dreams and visions involving deceased relatives increases dramatically.

Often they’re just seen as being present, quietly observing, always emanating this loving energy, and other times they actually interact. We can be quite certain that actual death is very similar to what near-death experiencers tell us. It seems that life review starts to begin before you actually die. Once you actually die, it just continues in another form. And near-death experiencers, of course, are dying, necessarily in a natural way. So many people are oftentimes natural because it couldn’t have to do with a heart attack or something, but it’s a sudden way. If they’re not being led into death over many weeks and then days and then hours. It happens suddenly and they just pop right into their life reviews without a chance to start gradually. So this gives us a lot of information that can make us very confident that our awareness continues that we encounter the souls that departed loved ones. That love is a thief that’s another thing they say is that– everything is related to love and those loving bonds. We often call it the binding force of love because it keeps us connected even into the afterlife.


[01:24:23] Ashley James: We’ve talked about beautiful positive things. I’m going to turn to something negative now, but I hope there’s hope here. I feel like we’re in dark times. Hopefully, not everyone feels the same way. Hopefully, there are people who don’t feel like we’re in dark times, but there’s a strong sense that there’s a spiritual war. A lot of people that I know believe that there are demons. There are negative entities that there are forces out there that are not wanting what’s in our best interest. In your research in studying near-death experiences, studying the afterlife, and spirituality. Have you come across the concept where people are struggling with demonic possessions or a feeling like there are negative forces that are hindering them from being able to live that life full of gratitude and love and connect with God and move into a positive spiritual realm?


[01:25:37] Dr. Eben Alexander: I would say, especially, when you look at the broad literature on near-death experiences and combine it certainly with Christopher Kerr’s work as Karen was discussing the end-of-life experience so commonly encountered. You find that 90 to 95% of it is just this beautiful, blissful kind of finding of a spiritual realm. You don’t find that there’s some battle between good and evil going on in the spiritual realm. In fact, even that kind of predefined set of near-death experiences that are turned into hellish NDEs or negative NDEs is often involved– for example, someone who has been so busy handing out pain and suffering to others that their life review might seem kind of hellish because you have to be on the receiving end of that in life.

Your life review is not from your perspective. But from the perspective of those around you who were influenced by your actions and thoughts. But the overall ambiance of that kind of community and those reports. This even includes, for example, if you go to the really negative kind of expectations, you might have to say, for example, inadequate prison where with rapists and murderers, you find that when prisoners work as hospice workers for fellow prisoners, they still uncover these same stories of kind of redemption of forgiveness of people facing the bad that they’ve done in this life, but seeing it in this light of love that guides them more towards a loving presence.

That’s why I think overall, the evolution of humanity, given this huge kind of factor NDEs and the loving ambiance in the background, that over a period of time, we do become more loving and move away from this kind of false sense of separation in comes of materialistic thought. I would agree with you that our current world is very apparently conflicted, polarized, lots of conflicts, violence, warfare, economic polarization, corporate greed, climate change, and all that. I would say that the answer to that is a spiritual awakening. It simply involves more and more people becoming aware of this deep truth about our existence that in many ways is very optimistic.

When you look at the big literature on NDE reports, for example, the ions website hosts thousands and thousands of reports with these kinds of experiences. The overall background is one of a very positive transformation of humanity. Kenneth Ring is one of the founders of the International Association of near-death studies. He wrote it three decades ago. It’s about how just people knowing NDEs could change their own reality.

You don’t have to have an NDE just knowing about these experiences and their commonality helps all of us to come into a deeper sense of the higher good that we can practice in meditation, centering prayer, and through the way that we live our lives and all the choices, we make every day. But despite the apparent hardships, and I would say that the hardships are there, just as in the world of alcoholism and addiction study where people have these hardships that they’re dealing with. It’s like getting a bottom, a gift of desperation that they’re able to bounce back up and gain the energy to improve themselves.

Likewise, society is facing a collective gift of desperation with all these apparent hardships, conflicts, political polarization, etcetera. There is a way out, and that is for humanity to truly become wise. Homo sapiens, the word sapiens, means wise. Yes, you could attribute much of the scientific advances in medicine, communication, transportation, etcetera. Over the last two centuries to been a wise move. When you look at the ugly underbelly of all our addiction to fossil fuels, the floating gyre of plastic twice the size of Texas floating in the Pacific Ocean, these are obviously very negative sides of our technological growth. So it’s time for humanity to really grow up and quit living this kind of myth of false separation from each other.

We’re all in this together. We need to take care of each other. And we need to have a much longer timescale. Politicians and corporate leaders look at the next quarterly report for next year’s elections. We need to look at 50 years in the future and our children and the quality of their lives and start doing what’s right for them. So that’s where I think this world can start to take stewardship as we should truly. If we’re going to call ourselves Homo sapiens and start leading this world in a much more positive direction, that’s beneficial to all.


[01:30:39] Ashley James: Your book Living in a Mindful Universe, there’s a lot of tools, a lot of actionable steps, can you guys certainly want to leave with us or teach the listeners today?


[01:30:51] Dr. Eben Alexander: I think the main thing is just to take time each day to go with that. Realize that little ego voice with a lot of its demands on you is not who you truly are. To try and cultivate a richer relationship across the veil with that primordial mind, that God force that has love, kindness, compassion, and mercy right at the core of all of this activity.


[01:31:15] Karen Newell: When we say go within, that may look different for each of us. It really is incumbent on each of us to try different practices. Find that combination of practices that work best for you because it’s going to be different for each of us. We are both very big fans of using sacred acoustics recordings to get into expanded states that not everyone will respond the same way, and so if that doesn’t work, you try something else. Some people like to do movement sorts of things, and others do centering prayer. I like how you said when you go to your church, and there’s a community of people, you’re all focused on generating that connection to the Holy Spirit together. Doing this with other people can strengthen the experience exponentially. I like to imagine that it is all about our heart energies interacting, and we are supporting each other in this effort. When you’re not nearby other people, you can always imagine that your highest energy expands all the way out to the entire Earth. It’s interesting at Heart Math when they measure that electromagnetic field. Whatever device they use, we seem to go to the maximum distance that it can measure. Who knows, it might be unlimited. Eben will always remind me that we can’t get confused and think that the electromagnetic field, which is a material thing, is all that it is. It’s a very useful mechanism that we can focus on that we know is happening, whether we realize it or not.


[01:32:53] Dr. Eben Alexander: There’s a much deeper form of information overlay between minds that presents in quantum physics as entanglement, and that would be my point. This kind of communication goes beyond just electromagnetic things that will be limited by the speed of light. Also, in adding to the comments you were making, I would point out that we’ve started developing a community of like-minded people, and you can access that at Very specifically, Karen had the idea that since all of our jobs were canceled back in March 2020 for the summer, she decided we would interview the scientists and fellow experiencers that we would have been meeting up with at those conferences. We would just interview them for the benefit of the public at large, and those interviews we did once every two weeks for most of the pandemic. They’re available at for free to the public. We hope that those will help people realize there’s a community of like-minded people growing up around all of this kind of teaching and effort.


[01:34:00] Karen Newell:  On that same website is a membership platform. The webinar access is all free. People can also connect, and we do on our platform, our teaching platform, where we have some core classes, but then also we do monthly Q&As, where people can submit any questions they want. So we take about 90 minutes to answer them. That’s also going on that same website if people are interested.


[01:34:25] Dr. Eben Alexander: There’s also a course available for mental health practitioners co-taught by Karen, myself, and Dr. Anna Yusim. I would say that course can be very valuable in helping people deal with mental health issues in the modern era.


[01:34:43] Karen Newell: One last resource is an online companion workbook that we created to go with Living in a Mindful Universe, and it’s called your 33-day journey into the heart of consciousness. If you go to, you’ll find a link to that 33-day journey. It’s an email. Just get an email once today with a note and a personal practice, and it’s all related to the book Living in a Mindful Universe.


[01:35:15] Ashley James: Excellent because I was actually just to ask about the free online course that you guys have, that’s Of course, the links to everything you talked about are going to be in the show notes for today’s podcast, So listeners go to to catch that or in the description whatever podcast platform you’re listening from. Go in the description, and I’ll make sure that all those links are there, of course, the links also to the books as well. This is such a beautiful thing to focus on. You’ve given us so many tools. I love the idea of making sure that we take time every day to stand in gratitude. To imagine when it comes to wanting something we don’t have, imagine what it would feel like to have it. Then imagine yourself having that feeling, that same feeling, and what other things you can experience or other relationships you can cultivate that will also give you that feeling. Stepping away from– I will be happy until I have this physical object and stepping towards your whole complete imperfect now as you are in and your possessions aren’t really don’t bring joy. But focusing on building relationships and staying grounded in love. Remember that even those people you don’t necessarily like or understand or get along with they’re just like you. They’re all part of the same soup. We’re all in it together. We’re all God’s children. And even these little mind shifts can help us live a more fulfilled life and a life where we’re focusing on being just beautiful human beings. I saw someone yesterday who was wearing a pin that said—humankind, be both. It’s exactly, be both, be kind and be human.


[01:37:31] Dr. Eben Alexander: I would like to think they go hand in hand.


[01:37:34] Ashley James: Thank you so much for coming on the show guys. This has been a pleasure and if you have more resources or discover more information and you want to come back and share more science. I would love you back.


[01:37:50] Dr. Eben Alexander:  Ashley, great talking with you. Thanks for having us on.


[01:37:53] Karen Newell: Yes, and thanks for all you do to help others as well and get all of this information and 20 more other people that you interview out into the world. Thank you so much.


[01:38:03] Ashley James: It is my pleasure.


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Books by Dr. Eben Alexander

Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Afterlife

Living in a Mindful Universe: A Neurosurgeon’s Journey into the Heart of Consciousness

The Map of Heaven: How Science, Religion, and Ordinary People Are Proving the Afterlife

Seeking Heaven: Sound Journeys into the Beyond

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