Eliot Marshall And Ashley James


  • You’re not alone. Community plays an important role in helping people with anxiety or depression to get better. Nobody ever has to be alone.
  • You’re not a victim of your circumstances. You can’t control your circumstances. You don’t have control over others.
  • It’s okay to fail. We learn the best through failing. Nobody learns from success.
  • Give even through the worst times, it’s when you have to give the most because what comes back to you is going to be so much better than what you give.
  • Don’t die for your beliefs. You have to be willing to be wrong. Be willing to change your mind because we keep on learning.



In this episode, Eliot Marshall shares with us ways on how he deals with his anxiety. He tells us martial arts has helped him to stay calm in the very worst moments of his life and how teaching martial arts while having anxiety saved his life by giving the most of what he could for his students.


[0:00] Intro: Hello true health seeker and welcome to another episode of Learn True Health podcast.

Today we have a wonderful guest. You are going to love Eliot Marshall. He’s such a genuine soul with a beautiful voice and I just love his heart. I know you will love his stories and his passion and compassion today listening to this wonderful interview. Interestingly enough, he asked me, I asked him to give us some homework and he asked me for some homework. So, I want to make sure that you know about these three resources that I shared with him.

One is for mediation, I know it’s a really big buzzword and we can just break it down and make it really simple. So many people find that meditation is helpful to them. So if you want to experience the benefits of meditation but you don’t know where to start, I recommend a free resource. Someone I’ve had on the show before who’s actually a really close friend of mine, his name is Forrest Knutson. You can find him on YouTube by searching Forrest Knutson. His website is thatyogiguy. He teaches. He’s made so many great videos and he teaches how to meditate in a very easy way. He utilizes neurofeedback and neuroscience. So he’s all about the science around what happens to the brain when we quiet the mind and also what happens to the nervous system taking us out of the stress response, which is very helpful if we’re looking to decrease the physical effects of anxiety and also decrease anxiety itself. So I recommend that as a resource.

The next thing I really recommend for anyone who’s experiencing problems with sleep or problems with anxiety or panic attacks is soaking in magnesium. If you’re a first-time listener, I have several interviews about this talking about the science behind magnesium. You can go to my website learntruehealth.com, type in magnesium and listen to my episodes about the magnesium soak. We actually absorb grams of magnesium when we do this soak. It is through livingthegoodlifenaturally.com and we were given a coupon code LTH, as in Learn True Health, to receive the listener discount. So go to livingthegoodlifenaturally.com, type in the coupon code LTH and get the jug of magnesium soak. Listen to the episode first so you understand all the benefits and how to soak in it. Our body actually absorbs grams of this magnesium and people, we have hundreds of listeners shared that they have better sleep, significantly less anxiety and that they have a greater sense of well-being. It really does make a difference especially when we’re magnesium deficient.

The third I recommend, I teach an entire course, it’s an entire month-long course, on eliminating anxiety and all the neurolinguistic programming tools that will allow you and empower you to no longer have anxiety. You can go to my website learntruehealth.com and in the menu click on in the Anxiety there. You’ll see more information about it. I really recommend my course for anyone who wants to significantly reduce stress, anxiety, panic attacks, worry or if you just are really interested in personal growth and you want more tools on your tool belt. It is a fantastic course. I make it affordable for everyone to be able to learn these tools in such a way that it will empower them.

So those are my three recommendations for people who want to decrease stress and anxiety in their life. Check those out. Enjoy today’s show. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you for sharing this episode with those you care about especially those who you know have some issues with anxiety, with worry, with depression. We can get together as a community and support each other. That’s what we need to do. No man is an island. We need to get together and support each other and do that by sharing episodes that’ll help each other and sharing what has helped us. Letting our friends and family know that we’re struggling too and we’re there for them. The more that we put down our guard and be vulnerable with each other and we share with each other that we care for one another, the more we can make a difference in this world. Recently, data from the CDC that was published shows that the suicide rate for generation z, this is the generation between the ages of 10 and 24 years old, has increased by 56% percent between the years 2007 and 2017. Suicide is now the second leading cause of death for generation z. This is a major epidemic. We need to do something right now. The only way we can make differences as individuals. So as individuals, all of us together can support each other by sharing this episode with those we care about and using the tools that Eliot teaches today. Just being there for each other, just reaching out to those we love and letting them know that we’re a should that they have and letting them know that we want to hear them and listen to them and that they’re heard. Also letting them know that we’re struggling too. Just that amount of communication could save someone’s life. So that’s why I’m so honored to be able to publish this episode today because my hope is that we can spread this message and turn this ripple into a tidal wave and help as many people as possible to learn true health.

Welcome to the Learn true health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 387.

Photo by Sarah Cervantes on Unsplash


[06:13] Ashley James: I’m so excited for today’s guest. We have with us Eliot Marshall who has an amazing story. What I love is he’s here to teach us how to find our power. As I’ve said on the show before health, a lot of times we look at physical health but health is not always just physical. Our mental and our emotional body and our energetic body all play a role in creating our physical health. We need to be able to create that inner power, that inner motivation, that inner strength, we need to cultivate that so that we can go out and do the things that support our life, our health physically but also our joy in our life. Eliot, it’s such a pleasure to have you here today.


[06:55] Eliot Marshall: Thanks, Ashley. Thanks for having me on. I could not agree with what you said more.


[07:00] Ashley James: Absolutely. Now your website is Eliotmarshall.com. Of course links to everything you do, it’s going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast learntruehealth.com. Eliot, you’ve got two podcasts that you do. You wrote a book. You own six gyms. You’re a professional fighter. It’s just like the list goes on and on and on.


[07:23] Eliot Marshall: I had a massive breakdown four years ago. I had a massive, what I like to call spiritual mental breakdown/spiritual awakening. I wasn’t paying attention to those things that were so important.


[07:36] Ashley James: We’re definitely going to dive in to your story. It sounds like you found your power though.


[07:41] Eliot Marshall: Yes. You know, I’m still gathering it. I don’t believe in ever reaching the top of the mountain.


[07:49] Ashley James: We’re never done, right?


[07:50] Eliot Marshall: We’re never done. The day I stop grinding is the day that they put the dirt on me. That grind might change. I don’t know what it’s going to look like that whenever –


[08:01] Ashley James: Yes. You get to the pearly gates and Jesus is like, “Alright, put you to work.”


[08:09] Eliot Marshall: Whoever it is up there, you know. Whatever it is. I’m never too concerned. I used to be super concerned with it. Now, I’m not concerned with it at all, I believe that we’re experiencing both heaven and hell while we are alive. So, I’m not sure what happens to me after I die. I guess I don’t even really care. I do care about what I do while I’m here on this earth.


[08:39] Ashley James: What a beautiful dichotomy to hold in your mind the idea that we’re going through heaven and hell at the same time. That we can learn and grow and utilize both experiences or both perspectives to help propel us forward and help others as well. I think we find really true joy when we reach out and help others. Our ego drops away. We’re in the now. We’re totally in that moment. You love helping people too. That’s why my podcast is Learn True Health. It’s not like achieve true health and then you’re done. It’s Learn True Health and keep learning and keep learning and keep learning. So, we’re going to learn from you today, Eliot. I’d love for you to start by sharing your story. What happened in your life that lead you to be such a wise soul?


[09:26] Eliot Marshall: I’ll start with I was born to an African-American dad who grew up very, very poor and White-Jewish mother whose parents, my grandparents, survived the concentration camps. So, I had a very interesting upbringing. We lived in this really small town. You know those towns where like they know when the kid’s born that he’s going to be the quarterback of a high school football team and a homecoming king? Like everybody knows that. That’s my town. I didn’t fit in very well. Looking back on it, it worked out great for me. In it, it sucked. So then, I would say grandparents, my mom’s parents had a huge, they had a very huge influence on my life. I saw them three times a week. There was a common thing. That common thing was Hitler will be coming again. I didn’t know that it was difficult. I didn’t know the effects that all of that had on me. It obviously played a role.


[10:45] Ashley James: Did you feel persecuted or ostracized for?


[10:49] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I had no friends. I had two friends my whole growing up, maybe three. That was pretty much the extent of it.


[10:58] Ashley James: That lack of acceptance must have really played into the belief that Hitler was coming back for you as a child growing up. That fear, you didn’t feel accepted by your community. If you’re community is already rejecting you then that fear that the holocaust is going to happen again was really real for you, really palpable.


[11:15] Eliot Marshall: Yes. There whole life was set for it to happen again. When they died, my sister lives in that currently, when my grandmother died at the time we went downstairs, it was 2000 and there was sugar and flour and stuff from 1979. We were ready. We were definitely ready.


[11:42] Ashley James: My aunt was a prepper back in the 70s. Until the day she passed away, she did the same thing. She filled her entire basement with canned goods. I understand that. I didn’t understand at the time but then I started to get. That’s a reality.


[12:02] Eliot Marshall: It’s a reality. Look man. We stole. I remember crawling in farms, because I lived in South Jersey where there’s a lot of farms, at night and going to get cucumbers. We didn’t need to steal. There was no necessity for us to steal. That’s just how they survived, my grandparents, right. Like okay, well let’s go. We didn’t steal massive things. We stole 10 cucumbers, which I’m not condoning it. I’m not saying that this was right or anything like that but that was the mentality. That was the concentration camp mentality. You have to survive. For me, I think it’s kind of what triggered my anxiety because I was always like, “Well man, what am I surviving from? It seems pretty good. I’m never hungry. Why should we be scared?” It triggered this from my life, like this. Like what’s coming down the pipe. Then it came a couple of times as an older. The first time I was 19 years old. It was pretty bad. The second time I was 21 and it was bad.


[13:22] Ashley James: When you say it was bad, were these events or were these panic attacks?


[13:26] Eliot Marshall: Yes. Acute anxiety episodes that lasted for about six to nine months. Then, up until this point you’ll never know what’s coming. Up until this point, my worst one was in 2016. It was, that was my dance with the devil. That was my dance with the devil.


[13:51] Ashley James: Were they provoked like something happened that triggered it or just out of nowhere, you’re like sitting at home eating dinner and then boom?


[13:58] Eliot Marshall: This last one, in 2016, I just got back from 2 weeks in Maui and my life was perfect. My businesses, I had two at the time, they were successful. I had a great wife. I had a great house. I had two great kids. I’m by no means like a gazillionaire but I didn’t, like if I want something I could do it. We’re not talking like Bugattis and private jets, right. We’re talking like normal everyday people stuff. If I wanted to go out to a nice dinner I wouldn’t even think about like what to save. I’ve none of that going on, nothing. My kids are healthy, my wife’s healthy, everything’s perfect. Literally two weeks in Hawaii, comeback jetlagged and that’s what did it. Just a little jetlag and then I didn’t sleep for five days. Maybe let’s just say somewhere between four and eight hours of sleep in five days.


[14:55] Ashley James: Sounds like it’s related to your stress response.


[14:57] Eliot Marshall: Yes. Probably. I mean at this time when I go back and look at it, I was consumed with looking at the numbers at work. How many members we had. I was consumed.


[15:15] Ashley James: You have a degree in math, right?


[15:17] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I have a degree in math but don’t ask me any hard questions coz I got punched in the head for a living for 10 years. So that’s always part of it, right? I’m like, “Man, is this the CTE?” because I couldn’t tell you how many, I mean concussion every day. I got punched in the head twice a week every week from 2005 until 2011. I’m not talking about punching the head by a five-year-old. I’m talking about punch in the head by 250-260 pound man.


[15:53] Ashley James: Your neurological wiring growing up was this fear that the third world war is about to happen, the holocaust is about to happen again. Then you have like a million concussions. So there might be some little bit of brain injury that you’re healing from.


[16:16] Eliot Marshall: You know, my brain looks good on MRI. Like obviously I’m not stupid. So I was always making sure if things like that. I had a brain MRI, I don’t know two years ago, my brain looks good. The real problems are what you can’t see on an MRI.


Photo by Nik Shuliahin on Unsplash


[16:31] Ashley James: Right, because that’s structural. The structure of the brain isn’t really how the brain works.


[16:36] Eliot Marshall: Like Aaron Hernandez, when he died it was the worst case of CTE that they’d ever seen. A lot of people think the guy’s a terrible human being but I mean how much can we blame him?


[16:50] Ashley James: Right. It’s the same for people who have a mental health condition. You can’t hold something against someone who’s schizophrenic or bipolar. They’re going through something. So, we have to take that into account and hold empathy and forgiveness. So what happened then? So after your last biggest in 2016, your biggest breakdown, how did you recover?


[17:22] Eliot Marshall: I realized that the way out was in.


[17:26] Ashley: I love that.


[17:27] Eliot Marshall: I’m going to try my very best not to sound super conceited here. For my schools, I’m the one that’s made it the farthest. I’ve won almost everything else there is to win. I made it to the UFC, which is like the crown jewel. If there’s a crown jewel for martial arts it’s did you fight in the UFC? I was not a champion but that’s like a marker that most people, almost no one gets to have especially 10 years ago. I’ve competed in everything. I’ve won. So people are like looking at me like, “Okay. That’s the mark.” I was just real honest with people. I was like, “Look, yeah I might be your mark but don’t worry, I struggle too just like you guys. So I’m going to be okay. I have great friends that help me. I have all of the tools necessary to get this done. I just want all of you to know,” and I said this in front of the class one day. I like pulled everyone in right in the middle of my hell. I said, “I want all of you to know that if this is for you too, if this is what’s going on, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. We’ll all get through this together because that’s what we do as a community. We lean on people and we’re strong for ourselves and for others as well.”


[18:59] Ashley James: Did anyone come forward and say-?


[19:02] Eliot Marshall: Yes, a bunch. I’m like a professional therapist now, Ashley.


[19:09] Ashley James: I love that.


[19:11] Eliot Marshall: That’s what got me to write my book and start this podcast that I have. My original podcast called the Gospel of Fire. The book is by the same title. So yes, that’s what got me to do all of it was my, I won’t even say my path to overcoming because I don’t believe in overcoming. I just believe in the moment, right now because this is all we’ve got.


[19:37] Ashley James: You know if more people were to stand up and say to their friends or their community, “I’m going through depression and I want to let you know. Let’s get through this together. If anyone else is going through depression, let’s talk about it or suicidal thoughts or anxiety or fear. If we were to instead of all be locked away in our houses, you know if you look at neighborhoods today –


[20:05] Eliot Marshall: On our cellphones.


[20:05] Ashley James: Right, we’re all locked away on our cellphones.


[20:08] Eliot Marshall: In our houses on our cellphones.


[20:10] Ashley James: Right, right. We’re so isolated. We’ve really created a society in the last generation that’s very isolated. The best thing for mental health is to do it as a community. I did this really amazing interview with this guy who travel around the world to study these techniques that are actually working at helping end addiction and helping end like mental health issues like depression and people who –


[20:44] Eliot Marshall: What’s his name?


[20:47] Ashley James: I will remember.


[20:49] Eliot Marshall: Is it Johann Hari?


[20:50] Ashley James: Yes.


[20:53] Eliot Marshall: I’m trying to get him on my podcast because he wrote those two books are amazing.


[20:57] Ashley James: His books are amazing. Yes, I had Johann on. It’s funny because he was like –


[21:01] Eliot Marshall: So his book the one Lost Connections and that’s about anxiety and depression, right? The other –


[21:07] Ashley James: I had him on the show right as his second book came out. So we talked about both of them.


[21:10] Eliot Marshall: That was Lost Connections.


[21:10] Ashley James: Right, we talked about both of them.


[21:12] Eliot Marshall: I hit him up. He’s writing a third book right now. He’s like, “Give me six months and I’ll do it.”


[21:19] Ashley James: Sweet. Well, he’s a great guest. I’ll vouch for you.


[21:23] Eliot Marshall: Yes. I love his books.


[21:25] Ashley James: He shares his stories.


[21:29] Eliot Marshall: Chasing the Scream because that was the one about addiction. So, Chasing the Scream is about addiction and then Lost Connection was the one about anxiety and depression. My favorite part of that book was the apple. Did you read the book, Lost Connections, did you read it?


[21:44] Ashley James: No. I did the interview.


[21:47] Eliot Marshall: He tells this story where he’s in, I don’t know, Indonesia or somewhere. He gets sick. He eats this apple and he gets sick like really, really sick. They didn’t know that it was the apple yet. So, he’s telling the story and he’s vomiting everywhere. He barely stayed alive. He’s finally in the hospital. He’s like, “Can you please just give me something for this?” They’re like, “No, we can’t because we don’t know what’s wrong yet. We need your nausea so we can help you.” Sometimes, we need our anxiety. I need my anxiety so that it can help me. It can point me in the direction that I need to go to find my power.


[22:29] Ashley James: Yes, because if you keep going down a path, like focusing on what you don’t want to have happen in the future, the anxiety gets worse and worse and worse. So like, okay I’m going down the wrong path. Let me start going down the right path.


[22:40] Eliot Marshall: Or you could drink it away, right?


[22:43] Ashley James: Sorry?


[22:43] Eliot Marshall: We can drink it away with alcohol. We can drug use it away with a whole lot of things, right. Then all we know, I think we both know that what happens is it comes back and it just keeps coming back a little worse and a little worse and a little worse.


[22:59] Ashley James: Yeah. He shared some stories about people who, when they got together as a community to support each other that their depression went down significantly. That even people who were, you know contemplating suicide stop contemplating suicide. The idea that bringing together community to support each other does so much for mental health. Things just simple like volunteering. Doesn’t have to be, it could be any kind of volunteering. It could be any kind of volunteering like volunteering at a cat shelter or a dog shelter or volunteering in a soup kitchen or whatever kind of volunteering. The fact that you, they say that the number one thing if you’re depressed, go volunteer. Be part of a community. People start to care about each other and help each other. That they just show unanimously people have less depression and less suicide. Less of being trapped inside yourself when you do things like get into community and volunteer.


[23:59] Eliot Marshall: That was my whole goal of my book. First one. So I was introduced to this lady. Her name is Erin Weed, she’s amazing. She does public speaking. I thought I was going to do the whole public speaking route. She does this thing called the Dig. She finds one word that describes you. My one word is power. So that’s why Find Your Power. But what we got to, she was like, “Man, I really don’t know if the speaking route is your way yet because 1) you curse a lot. But I think you’re amazing. And your people.” I’ve been pretty good so far. What are we, 20 minute, 30 minutes in and I haven’t done it.


[24:40] Ashley James: You’re doing a really good job. You caught yourself. There is an s word. You almost said it. I was like, smooth.


[24:48] Eliot Marshall: Yes. My wife says this about me, I’m like a fungus. I just grow on people. So, that’s why she was like, “Look, you need to start a podcast so people could get to know you. You need to write this book.” The company, she gave me this company. Man, they charge $25,000. $25,000 to write this book. I’m sitting there thinking. I’m like damn it, $25,000, that’s a lot of cash. How do you get an ROI in $25,000 for a book? Because I got to split with Amazon and this and that, right? I’m not Johann Hari. I’m not a New York Times bestseller already and all this stuff. Then I had to rethink it. I had a moment where I was like, man, what if I write just the most amazing book. What will make it so amazing is that one person will contact me and say that I saved their life. If that happen, if one person just hit me up on I I’d have Instagram or Twitter, wherever and said, “Yo, dude. I was getting ready to check it out and you made me not.” I was like, damn, I’d have to write another one then because a life is for sure worth $25,000.


[26:02] Ashley James: So did you do it with them? Did you spend $25,000?


[26:04] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I did it. My ROI is ridiculous. Because I had gotten more than one. My ROI has been ridiculous.


[26:14] Ashley James: So you really helped save people with your book.


[26:17] Eliot Marshall: Yeah and like the whole, we found this why in the academies that I own, you know. We had this, it’s just nobody ever has to be alone. I know I teach martial arts. I teach this violent thing. I have UFC fighters. We’re trying to beat each other up. That’s what the goal of the whole thing is on the outside, on the outside. But man, what it really teaches you, what Brazilian jiu-jitsu really[y teaches you. Do you know anything about it?


[26:46] Ashley James: I studied martial arts when I was a teenager and the early 20s.


[26:51] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, what it does, so Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a grappling art where we submit each other with joint locks. The whole position is controlled. Like a joint manipulation of a major joint like your knee or your elbow and chokes, strangulations. We get to practice at full speed because when you lock my arm out straight I can be like, “Oh man, that thing’s not going to go any straighter.” So I tap. Right? So I’m trusting you with my life and you’re doing the same for me. The choke is the same. The better you get, you get to learn how to like be in this submission holds and kind of deal with like, “So, I’m getting choked and I feel this. This is very uncomfortable but I just have to stay really calm. Because I know that freaking out is not going to get me out. So the calmer I stay right now the better I’ll be able to process how to deal with this arm around my neck. It’s not all the way locked in. Like I could still breathe and blood is still flowing through my brain. I’m okay.” How do I stay okay? But those moments. That’s really hard. It’s super hard. It takes a long time how to stay calm in that moment of being strangled. That’s what martial arts and specifically Brazilian jiu-jitsu is teaching us in my opinion is it teaches us how to stay calm in the very, very worst moments that our life is going to bring on us.


[28:19] Ashley James: Well, because your body perceives a choke hold as a threat. It wants to go into fight or flight to try to save your life. But being in fight or flight shuns the blood away from logic centers of your brain. So now you’re not, hopefully have some kind of muscle going but you really don’t have clarity of mind when you’re in fight or flight.


[28:42] Eliot Marshall: Well, everyone goes into fight or flight in the beginning. If you came into a jiu-jitsu class today, I put my arm around your neck and you’re going to be like, “Oh, God.” You’re going to freak out. Everyone just goes bananas for the first couple of years when they’re getting choked. Then they tap. You go and you start again. That’s the beauty of it though is it goes through like this human lifecycle. Like you’re born, you get to live and fight. That’s the fight and then man you die. You get choked out. Then you get to live again. Then you get to be reborn. You get to try it again. You get to try a little different this time. Like, “Okay, this time I’m going to do this.” You can see whether it works or it doesn’t work. But it’s really safe because you put your partner’s taking care of you. Like I said, his life is in your hands and your life is in hers. So, it doesn’t matter. You build this insane trust with somebody else because you have to do this really hard thing, beating each other up. But you have to do it safely. Because most of my students are not trying to be champions. We have schools littered with somebody who goes to work all day and then has two and a half kids and a white picket fence, right? Like the average American. That’s who we teach. Yeah, we have phenomenal champions as well, but who we teach is, like who we really teach, is you, Ashley. Are you married?


[30:11] Ashley James: Yes.


[30:12] Eliot Marshall: And your husband and your kids. That’s who we teach. You have zero goals of being champion. But for some reason, you keep walking in. You keep doing this really weird thing like Fight Club.


[30:24] Ashley James: You create a community. I loved my martial art family. It was so cool. We’d go out to dinner together after most workouts and hang out and huge amount of bonding. You really, really start to care for these people because you’re right. You’re putting your life in their hands. They’re putting their life in yours. You develop trust really quickly. There’s a great amount of respect. Did you start to notice, like when you dived into this community, that you were getting emotional healing from being part of a community that was so accepting of you and helped you to drop your guard?


[31:08] Eliot Marshall: So, I didn’t notice it until later. You know, I really didn’t notice it until one of my students passed away to be honest with you. He passed away. It was at the end of my stint, of my acute nine months. Let’s say, it was much greater. It was down the road. I didn’t cry yet. I hadn’t cried. I was sad but I didn’t cry. He was poor, his very poor. Their family was poor. They couldn’t afford to like give him a service or anything. So we brought them out to Colorado, because they weren’t from here. We, at the school, we just paid for everything, right. Like plane tickets, we just took care of it. So, I had to say something. I had to give a eulogy. I absolutely lost it standing up there. I was baffling, crying, sobbing buffoon. What I realized was that man, over the last two years that my students saved my life. Because I was like, “Come on man, you got to show up to teach your class. You got to show up. When you go teach that class, it’s got to be the best class possible.” Like every class has to be amazing. That was my goal through the day. That’s how I got through the day. Then just more people showed up for me, more people showed up for me. I was trying to give the most that I could. Just by them coming, they gave me the greatest gift that they could ever give me. So, they saved my life. I didn’t really realize it until like that moment, standing up there. I was sobbing. His mom was there, my students, a bunch of my students. I was a mess. I was a mess. But that’s when I realized that all we have to do is give. If we just give, even in the worst times, even in the hardest times, that’s when you got to give the most. Just give. Give to other people. What comes back to you is going to be so stupidly much better. You can’t, I don’t even know how to explain it. Like I don’t even know how to explain it.


[33:42] Ashley James: Well, you showed up for them. You kept putting, you kept getting up every day, getting out of bed, putting on your clothes. That was your motivation to keep going, right? In the hard times, was making sure that you brought your everything to the lessons that you’re teaching them. But if you didn’t have your students there for you, you weren’t having a reason to live at that point, right?


[34:09] Eliot Marshall: Right, yeah. Look, I had a great wife and kids but like they were like the root of my anxiety. Mine is all around sleep. So, I freak out with the sleep. So I was like, man I’m not going to sleep and then when I don’t sleep I’m going to go crazy. Renee is only going to put up with this for so long and then she’s going to leave me and then she’s going to take the kids. But then I’m going to go more crazy. Then I could just play this circle in my head. It was awful. Like I said, it doesn’t go away. It gets quieter but it doesn’t ever go away from me. So, I couldn’t lean on my family. That sucked, right? Because normally that’s what you do. You lean on your family and I couldn’t do that. Because they were like, the one thing my oldest would do, I think he didn’t understand it. I don’t think he knew at the time. But right when we were tucking them into bed, I would get into bed with him, I would like lay down. Sometimes I’d be like losing it. Maybe he could feel it, he would just like put his hand on my back. That always helped a little. He’s like my mini me, you know. I had to, for the most part, lean on something other than my family, my at home family. I had to really lean on my students. My mom and dad lived and my sister, they lived in New Jersey so I could lean on them a little bit. I wasn’t worried. They weren’t part of the anxiety. A lot of therapy. I go to therapy every week. Still, to this day, every week I go talk to my therapist.

Photo by Tina Bo on Unsplash


[35:56] Ashley James: That is so healthy. I think e most well-adjusted people go to therapy. The old paradigm is, you know, therapy is for crazy people. It’s just like, you know what, therapy is for people who want to be mentally strong. I have a friend who said this. I guess she’s a millennial, she’s like an older millennial. But she said this on Facebook, she said, so she’s a chef. She’s a personal chef in Seattle so she like caters to people. One customer will be paleo, the next one will be vegan, the next one will be raw vegan, the next one’s like I don’t care, I just want to do delicious, the next one’s calorie restricted, the next one’s allergic to garlic. I mean it’s just like the list goes on and on. So, she has to like balance in her mind.


[36:38] Eliot Marshall: I hate this by the way. Starbucks is who did this to us. Okay.


[36:44] Ashley James: She has to balance in her mind all these different diets and really caters to their taste. Maybe one doesn’t like Indian and the other one does. So, she’s really good at that. She has a daughter who’s about four and a wonderful boyfriend. She also has a horrible commute because Seattle has really bad traffic. She really seems like she got her stuff together. She said this on Facebook the other day, “If you think I’ve got my stuff together, I wouldn’t have my stuff together for the three times a week I go to therapy.” She’s like, “There’s nothing wrong with me mentally and we need to break away in society from this idea that we go to therapy when there’s something wrong.” You go to therapy to make sure that you can keep it together. She says that that’s how she maintains an incredibly successful business and she’s an amazing mom, an amazing girlfriend. She’s got everything together because she goes to therapy three times a week. She says she would’ve exploded and probably killed everyone by now if it wasn’t for the fact that she goes to therapy. So I just, I love that. That idea that you find the type of therapy, you find the type of therapist that really jives with you and you do it because it allows you to stay sane.


[37:55] Eliot Marshall: This is how I like to put therapy. This is my best analogy. You brush your teeth every day, twice a day?


[38:01] Ashley James: I’d hope so.


[38:03] Eliot Marshall: Why?


[38:04] Ashley James: So my teeth don’t rot out of my head.


[38:07] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So if you ever get to the point where your teeth are rotting out of your head, is brushing your teeth going to do anything?


[38:12] Ashley James: No. You got to go to the dentist at the point.


[38:14] Eliot Marshall: You have to go take these drastic measures, right? You have to take these drastic measures. You’re in crisis. How about you just brush your teeth every day and I probably could guarantee you that that won’t happen.


[38:26] Ashley James: Right.


[38:27] Eliot Marshall: I go to therapy like I brush my teeth. So I can stay out of crisis.


[38:33] Ashley James: What kind of therapy because there’s so many different kinds? You know what kind you work with?


[38:38] Eliot Marshall: We did a lot of CBT. Now, cognitive behavioral therapy. Now, look for me, I just need a verbal vomit to be honest with you. Because I have a lot of people that lean on me. We have seven schools. We’re about to open our seventh school. They’re all run by my best friends. Every single one of them. I don’t do –


[39:03] Ashley James: To be the boss of your best friends can be kind of stressful.


[39:07] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. So, I’m not really the boss. I’m kind of the boss but we have like a CEO and CFO. We’re charging, we charge. We don’t do this like most martial arts schools. Like every single one of my students knows that if they need something that I’ll be there. I hope they know. If they don’t know, I hope they listen to this podcast and they know that. Well that pressure, that’s a lot of pressure. So I have go talk about that. I have to go get my feelings, how I’m feeling out. I can’t hold it in because I know what happens when I hold it in. When I hold it in, I can just play this loop in my, I caught myself again, I can play this loop in my head. Just go and go and I’ll be, you know. I can start in the North Pole and I’ll end in the South Pole and that is awful.


[40:03] Ashley James: So when you sit down and you just get to verbal vomit all the stuff that’s in your head out, after you get it all out and while you’re talking, because I bet the therapist doesn’t really say much. Do you start to really hear the patterns and hear your own limiting decision and hear. You’re like, “Oh, wow. That’s where I’m coming from. That’s interesting.” You’re practically doing your own therapy.


[40:31] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I do a lot of my own therapy. But I need her. I can’t do it, all right, I’m sure I could. But I love her and we only talk once a week. We do not, I don’t get coffee with her. Nothing. I don’t even know when birthday is and she probably doesn’t even remember when mine is. That’s perfect. Right? That is absolutely perfect. I don’t want it differently because it will ruin what we have. Sometimes we’ll be going and then she’ll go like, “Oh, that doesn’t make, can you sake that again please?” I’m like, here we go.


[41:10] Ashley James: That’s awesome. So she’s kind of like a coach in a way?


[41:12] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. She’s a coach. She‘s this 70-year-old lady. I don’t want to talk to a dude. If I need to tale to a dude, I’m going to call one of my friends. I tried a duded and it just didn’t work. I was like, man, I’m not telling you anything. No, no. I’ll sit here and do this hour because I’m paying for it but it’s going to be the last time we talk. I just, for some reason, the book that I wrote, I need a lady. They get it out of me the best. I don’t know what it is.


[41:43] Ashley James: Well, as long as they get it out of you. It sounds like one of the key, so far what I’ve derived is, to find your power, involve community and get therapy. Does that sound about right?


[41:58] Eliot Marshall: Yes. That sounds about right. But we’re going to take a hard left turn here if you want. Everything in my life that happens to me is my fault. You can’t be a victim. Extreme ownership. You can’t be a victim. Extreme ownership. Like Jocko Willink book, Extreme Ownership, is amazing. Everything in my life is my fault and then I have it tattooed in my arm in Greek because it was first said in Greek. The impediment of action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way, Marcus Aurelius. The obstacle is the way. So, if it’s hard, amazing.


[42:40] Ashley James: I was in a lot of landmark education classes. Have you ever heard of them?


[42:48] Eliot Marshall: No.


[42:49] Ashley James: They started back in 60s. They called themselves Est and then they transformed and called themselves landmark. There are personal growth and development classes all around the world. That’s one of the first things they focus on is being a cause in your world, being responsible for your world. Not that it’s your fault. So, this beautiful woman, she’s like 6’ tall. Gorgeous African-American, long hair, always wears these amazing suits that just like, she’s always so beautiful. She stood there. I was at a talk, a landmark education talk in Atlanta, Georgia. She stood there in front of hundreds, hundreds of people and she said, “I take responsibility for the Holocaust. I take responsibility for slavery.” People are like, what? This is charged. What are you talking about? She’s like, “Just hold on. If I am responsible for who I am in the matter, then it does not have power over me.” I get to dictate how my life goes. It has no power over me.


[44:06] Eliot Marshall: Nobody has my day, Ashley. It’s mine and nobody else’s. So, I like to listen to a lot of people. One of the people I like to listen to is ET, Eric Thomas, motivational speaker, black guy. He’s like,  “Man, you’re damn right I’m an African-American man in America. You’re damn right there’s racism.’’ He’s like, “My dad left when I was a kid. I didn’t graduate high school and my mom did everything she can but she was a crack addict. So what? So what? It’s on me man. It’s on me. Of course that’s not fair.” Now, on the flip side of that, those of are who are fortunate has to do everything we can to help the less fortunate. So, I play this dichotomy. It takes, I’m glad you do long podcasts because if I just hit one side of, people are like, “Oh man that guy sucks.” It’s your fault then no. It is my job to sprinkle, I’m going to steal on Obama line here, to sprinkle as much luck dust on as many people as I possibly can. However, when I’m talking to that individual person, my job is to be like, “No, this is on you.”


[45:29] Ashley James: You’re not a victim of your circumstances.


[45:30] Eliot Marshall: You’re not a victim of your circumstances. You can’t control your circumstances. The only thing you’ve got is you. If you want to sit here and mope and cry and everything else and it’s not my fault. Man, if it’s not your fault, if it’s someone else’s fault, you’re screwed because you can’t control other people. I can’t get my wife, could you imagine for you to try to be like, you know what’s your husband’s name Ashley?


[45:59] Ashley James: Duffy.


[46:00] Eliot Marshall: Duffy. It’s amazing. I’m going to try to get Duffy to not be mad at me ever. You would either go to the loony bin, right? You would either go to the loony bin or you’re just screwed. How could you possibly do that? Man, what if Duffy wrecked the car, his mom died, something else happen and you come home and you were supposed to clean the kitchen. The day went to crap. You didn’t know. He didn’t know. The kitchen, the house is destroyed. You’re not home. He walks in. He’s mad at you. Could you imagine? Not of that was your control over that day and you’re going to try to control Duffy? Come on. You’re screwed if you want to deal with other people. It’s on you. It’s on you. You’re not a victim.


[46:56] Ashley James: It’s what we do in that moment. So your husband’s angry, it’s what we do in that moment. Do we play the victim? Because that’s not going to solve any problems at all. Do we divert lame? That’s not going to solve any problems at all. But listening and taking ownership and say, “Okay, now what? Now what can we do to solve this problem. Let’s work on it together.”


[47:20] Eliot Marshall: I was going to say, I don’t love my wife for all the good times I have with her. Like man, do you know how many good times, and I’m not talking about sex, you know how many good times I have with so many people? I have so many good times. You love them for the awful ones. Like the three in the morning, both kids vomiting. Like mad at each other. Nobody’s doing what we want to do. Then the morning comes and everyone’s still sitting there. That’s where like the sword is forged, you know. The love is forged in those moments. It’s not forged when you’re out at the best dinner ever and you’re walking holding hands at the beach and madly in love. Man, no way. I mean, sure that’s great, but that’s not when that. The sword is just molded in this hard, hard steel. In my opinion, that’s not when that happens. If you’re single, for all the single people out there right now, man, if you’re dating somebody for a week and they’re like, “Yo, let’s go to Hawaii on this amazing vacation.” You’re going to say, yes but you don’t love them, right? You don’t love them yet. So why do you love people? You love them for the hard times and that they’re there for you, the community, the connection, right? You know. So I have six rules for my kids. This is my second book, the Six Rules of Life for you and your Kids. The last rule, rule number six is we ride or die. If my brother goes down, then I go down. That’s what real love is.

Photo by Priscilla Du Preez on Unsplash


[49:10] Ashley James: So you don’t let tattle tailing in the house I bet? You get your kids to help each other.


[49:16] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I don’t listen to it, but obviously they’re children. So, it doesn’t affect the decisions that I’m going to make with what happens next. No way. Their job is to love each other more than they love me and their mom. That’s how I want it. Because they’re going to most likely and hopefully outlive both of us. That relationship has to be stronger than the one that they rely on us for. I know, right now, they rely on us for a lot. But they can’t so hard because they have to take care of each other. They do. It’s really amazing. It’s really sweet, you know. My kids were just at a birthday party, a sleepover. My 6-year-old, I have a 9 and a 6-year-old, my 6-year-old it was his first time that he was sleeping at somebody else’s house and it wasn’t the neighbor right across the street. So he thinks the neighbors across the street I mean. So we have this 1950s relationship with them. We don’t knock on each other’s doors like if I need eggs, I don’t ask for eggs. I just walk in the house, go in their refrigerator, grab some eggs. If they’re not home, I have the code to their door. I’ll unlock it and get the eggs. I won’t even have to tell them. It’s vice versa. Everything’s the same. So this was the first sleepover where it wasn’t that family. So basically his second family. He had a little trouble and his brother was there. The way it went down is he got into bed with his brother and they just slept together. His brother took care of him. All of his brother’s friends were there because it was his brother’s friend’s birthday. So, there were like seven kids there, eight kids. All of my eldest son’s age. The reason my youngest son was there was because the birthday boy has a brother who’s their age and they wanted him to be occupied and not be in his brother’s way. So it worked out perfectly but then come sleep time, he’s never slept anywhere else before especially not away from his mom and dad and especially not where his not very comfortable. They know the rule, rule number six man. They take care of each other. They have to take care of each other.


[51:40] Ashley James: That’s awesome. So we got to take care of each other but we need to take that responsibility. I like that dichotomy again. We’re 100% accountable for everything that happens in our life and we need to help those who are struggling. We need to build community. I was just thinking, I have a friend who was born with intense dyslexia. He wasn’t diagnosed just because of the time of when he was born. I think he’s about 50 now. He went through school as intense dyslexic but he was not diagnosed until two years after graduating high school. His mom is an art teacher. So his mom helped him to pour in his creative outlet into things because he had a hard time reading and writing. Of course, getting through high school not being able to learn to read and write is very, very hurt. I’m just thinking like, someone who, like you use the example of a man who is African-American whose dad left whose mom was a crack person and had a lot of crap happen. It’s like, he’s like his not of a victim of circumstances. Yes, there’s definitely bias against me, the racial bias, bias around my upbringing, right? Then my friend over here who is extreme dyslexic. Both scenarios, they could have said that they’re a victim of education system. They’re a victim of the government. They’re a victim of societies’ bias against them. They could’ve bought in the victim hood and not made a life for themselves. But they both just worked even harder than everyone else in order to grab the joy and the life that they want. You know what? They’re probably happier because it was probably harder for them and it makes it even sweeter. That’s like, where going to come back to that idea that we’re in heaven and hell at the same time. Because when you don’t have to work for something to earn it, that doesn’t actually bring happiness.


[54:06] Eliot Marshall: No, it brings nothing.


[54:06] Ashley James: It brings nothing. But when you have to work your butt off to get something that brings you the most joy ever. So, yeah, we have to work our butts off. No one has it all. It’s like someone might be a certain race but the other person has a learning disability or the other person has a physical disability. Like everyone’s got something going on. Someone has, you know, bipolar. Everyone has something. Everyone has their hell. Everyone does. It doesn’t make racism right. It’s not right. That’s how we as a community need to help.


[54:46] Eliot Marshall: And we don’t. Sorry, go ahead. You go. I just thought about something.


[54:50] Ashley James: I was just saying that we need to, we obviously as individuals need to help as many people as possible, right? Because if we don’t want a world where there’s racism anymore, then we need to be that example as individuals to help that. But everyone is going through their own personal hell. Everyone has their demons they are facing. Everyone has their struggles, right? So, if we own it and then we plug in to community and help other people and other people help us, I love that idea. Taking ownership but at the same time helping other people because we need to help. Everyone has an imbalance that they’re dealing with.


[55:32] Eliot Marshall: We don’t need to compare. Mine doesn’t have to be worse than yours. Yours doesn’t have to be worse than mine. We don’t need to do this. We are where we are. Your hell is hell right now. My hell is, I don’t need to be well, let me tell you. Let me tell you about mine was. That’s unnecessary. The last little part here I think that helps me go through my life with this dichotomy is I don’t believe in the self-made man or that term is something man or a woman. It doesn’t exist.


[56:10] Ashley James: Because it took more than one person?


[56:13] Eliot Marshall: Man. So, I mean, for example this guy Eric Thomas. He’s like the number two. He’s an amazing motivational speaker. Did he invent the internet? Because that’s what made him be able to do it. It’s the internet.


[56:33] Ashley James: Right. So someone who’s a famous author, like he didn’t invent books. Tony Robbins didn’t invent infomercials.


[56:42] Eliot Marshall: No. Did you invent the author? Did you invent the printing press? No. Because that’s what did it. Without the printing press your author, your amazing writing skills, out the window. How many millions of people, billions of people came before you who tell way better stories in a way better way but there is no such this as the printing press? But now, while you‘re alive, there’s this printing. All of a sudden you did it on your own? Come on.


[57:09] Ashley James: I love that because we often will look at these people who have really made it. They made it. Like Tony Robbins has made it. He’s like a billionaire. He has made it. He’s helped so many people. You look at him and you’re like, “I could never do that.” But that’s like the little voice.


[57:26] Eliot Marshall: Yes, yes. That might be right. Hold on. You might not be able to be Tony Robbins. You know what I’m not? I’m not Lebron James. I’m not 6’8”. I am not a physical specimen that Lebron James is. That might be what I am. That’s okay. That’s okay. But there’s something that I could be Lebron Jamesesque at. I could be amazing at something. That’s what we have to realize. We’ve got to stop this comparison. Like, man I want to be like Mike. Yeah, me too. I want to be like Mike my whole life. But it didn’t work out. So what? So what? I’m going to be better than Mike at what I do. I’m going to be amazing at Eliot. That’s what I’m going to do. I hope that my amazing at Eliot shows everyone else who’s a fat Jewish black kid growing up with no friends. I hope everyone that sees that can go, “Oh man, I could be amazing too.” Because I don’t believe personally, I don’t know we might differ here, I don’t believe in free will. I believe we are a product of our chemical makeup and our life experience. We can’t touch our chemical makeup. So, there’s medicines and things that we could do to do that. But that is what it is. However, my job is to touch people’s life experience.


[58:55] Ashley James: I’m curious. Can you explain what do you mean by we don’t have free will?


[59:02] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. So, it comes down to things like choice. We make choices all the time. Every day we make a choice. Am I going to have apple juice or orange juice, bla bla bla? Can you think of a movie for me?


[59:16] Ashley James: The Game Changers.


[59:18] Eliot Marshall: Think of another one.


[59:19] Ashley James: Rambo.


[59:20] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, why did you think of the Game Changers?


[59:23] Ashley James: Because I was just telling my doctor about it today.


[59:27] Eliot Marshall: Okay. So, you already had that conversation.


[59:28] Ashley James: Yup.


[59:29] Eliot Marshall: Then why did you think about Rambo?


[59:31] Ashley James: I guess because the Game Changer is about a bunch of athletes and Rambo is also a muscular guy.


[59:37] Eliot Marshall: Right. So, all on the same realm.


[59:39] Ashley James: Yup.


[59:39] Eliot Marshall: Why did you make that choice? Did we free to make that choice or did it just pop in your head?


[59:45] Ashley James: I mean, I know a lot of movies. I do. But those two popped in my head.


[59:49] Eliot Marshall: It just popped and you can’t even explain to me why.


[59:51] Ashley James: I can’t, no.


[59:53] Eliot Marshall: Were you free or did it just happen?


[59:55] Ashley James: I think it just happened.


[59:57] Eliot Marshall: So, at what choices that we make in our life do all of a sudden does this innate you take over and start making that choice?


[1:00:06] Ashley James: Well, I think consciously when I catch myself –


[1:00:13] Eliot Marshall: I couldn’t have asked you a simple conscious question.


[1:00:17] Ashley James: When I have to really consciously go, okay, this is a healthier choice for me to make. So, if I’m in the kitchen.


[1:00:25] Eliot Marshall: Sometimes you eat ice cream don’t you? 


[1:00:28] Ashley James: Yeah. Because I go, okay. We’ll just do it. But it’s plant based, there’s no dairy in it because that would hurt. But yeah.


[1:00:40] Eliot Marshall: Are you a Buddhist?


[1:00:43] Ashley James: No. I’m allergic to dairy and I’m plant-based.


[1:00:47] Eliot Marshall: Right. But still, the choice, it’s really this really weird thing. Like I said, we make choices all the time but if you could –


[1:01:02] Ashley James: But who’s making the choice? Who’s making it, right? Like what’s the –


[1:01:06] Eliot Marshall: We are. We definitely are. We definitely are making that choice but we couldn’t make another choice in the moment is what no free will means to me. Because of our chemical makeup and our past experience. That’s what lets me do the whole no blame no credit thing.


[1:01:21] Ashley James: Well, you’re also stopping yourself from shaming yourself or holding on to guilt.


[1:01:29] Eliot Marshall: Shaming myself and/or others. Even like the Murderer. It helps me have a little empathy for the murderer because if I can say, ‘man, if my life was that life, that’s where I’d end up too.’ I’m not better than that guy. Now, it will be really hard for me to get there right now. It will be really hard for me to be poor and broke and homeless right now, currently. That would take some major screw ups. Is screw up a curse word?


[1:01:56] Ashley James: No.


[1:01:58] Eliot Marshall: Okay. Nice. Okay. That would take some major screw ups on my part. This would take me years to bring me to mess this up bad currently. But man, let’s rewind 20 years. Let’s go put myself in the veteran, Vietnam veteran or the Iraq veteran or the whatever war veteran. Let me live his life and let me kill some kids, possibly, and then see where I go. But we don’t like to think like that. We like to think like, no man. This you could probably handle that but we’re not talking about this you. We’re talking about a different you. A totally different you. So, that what allows me to have a lot of empathy and try to be like, “You know what, I’m not better than anyone.” At the same time, no one’s better than me.


[1:02:54] Ashley James: There’s a principle in neurolinguistic programming that everyone is doing the best they can with the resources they have available.


[1:03:06] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. You think anybody wants to be a crack addict? I know what I’m going to do today. I’m going to wake up and become a crack head. No one has ever said that. A lot of people smoke crack unfortunately, right? A lot of people smoke crack and do terrible awful things and make terrible awful decisions. They’re doing the best they can at the moment.


[1:03:40] Ashley James: What’s the advice you have for people who really want to turn their life around for people who have just come to the conclusion that the direction they’re going is not the right one for them? They see themselves going down that really dark path.


[1:03:52] Eliot Marshall: Amazing, good for you. Yes. Amazing. So, now we can start. Now we can actually start to do something. Because you’re saying, I want something different. Until you say that, nothing’s going to change. I mean everyone, probably everyone listening if it’s adults, knows somebody or maybe is that person who is an addict, right? How much talking to an addict can you do to get them to change? Nothing.


[1:04:25] Ashley: They have to be ready.


[1:04:28] Eliot Marshall: They have to want it. I know sometimes they go, ‘oh man, that’s rock bottom,’ and then nope. We don’t l know what rock bottom looks like. But once you see it, once you are lucky enough, and I said lucky enough, to get a glimpse that you want something different for your life. Now we can do it. In my opinion, the way it’s done, is with mindfulness. We have to learn to be in the moment. We have to just be still and be in the moment. The way I do that is with meditation. I meditate every day. That’s where I start. That’s what I recommend for everyone to start when somebody asks me for some help is I say, “Hey, let’s try this mediation thing.”


Photo by Ksenia Makagonova on Unsplash


1:05:15] Ashley James: How did you learn to meditate?


[1:05:17] Eliot Marshall: So, religions never worked for me. It may never. I hope I’m going to come off like I’m going to bash religion here because I don’t want to. The whole sin thing doesn’t make sense in my mind. It doesn’t make sense to me. Like I was born. So you’re telling me I was born terrible? In my opinion, if you tie it back, it always ties back to some even or something that 10,000 years ago, five, whenever you choose the religion and the event that happened. Man why is that messing with me? Why am I paying that price? Do I do things wrong? Of course I do things wrong. So, the traditional Christianity and Judaism and Islam, they just don’t work for me because I can’t rationalize it out. Sometimes, the eastern religions, they go a little better for me in my head. Not so much the religion of them but the practice of them. Because you lose the self especially in Buddhism. How do we lose the self? We start losing the self by realizing literally just one single moment. I’ve been able to realize moments in my life a couple of times like where I’ve had just this, so when you fight professionally, when you walk into that cage and that cage door gets locked, there’s only you and another dude in there. You’re not thinking about anything else. Dinner is not going through that head. Nothing. My children are not going through my head. My wife and my mom, nothing. Then there’s even just more stillness. I can remember the very last fight that I had. My nickname’s the fire marshal. Then my coach, he will just call me as fire marshal. He sat down on the stool. I was probably, it was either I was tired or I was losing one round a piece. He looks at me and he goes, “All right fire marshal, we all know that this could be it for you right here.” I mean we’re in the middle of chaos. It’s chaos. A fight is just chaos. Literally, if that person were to kick my head off, they would do it, right? I just remember this piece came over me. This absolute calmness. I went out and I had the best round of my life against the best opponent I ever fought. [Inaudible] It was just this amazingness. I never got to do it again because that was my last fight. So, those moments. If we can start to realize them a little more, how do we recreate that? You recreate that by focusing on your breath, by realizing that all we have is right now and just digging deeper and deeper into that.


[1:08:43] Ashley James: I love it. That was so cool. One of my best friends is a master create yoga teacher. Create yoga is not the stretchy kind of yoga. It’s the stretch your mind kind of yoga. I’m going to hook you guys up. I’ve had him on the show before. He’s coming on again. His name is Forrest Knutson. He figured out. He lived in a monastery for several years. He was a monk. He’s been meditating since he was a teenager. He grew up in Idaho and he felt like, well everyone was drinking beer and driving trucks, he was meditating. He did not fit in. So he escaped to California and lived in a monastery for many years as a monk. He figured out a way of using biofeedback to go deeper into meditation and to go actually get into those data waves and stuff like that. So he’s all into the science of how to maximize mediation. I think that you guys would really get along. Actually, you might want to have him on your show actually. He’s so, I mean he’s meditating his entire life. What you described is really non-threatening for people who have never meditated. Okay, I’m just going to breathe and focus on the now and get that all that I have is right now. Okay. I’m just going to breathe and be in the now.


[1:10:05] Eliot Marshall: You can’t mess it up. If you sit there for 10 minutes, you did it. Yes, your thoughts go all over here and there, wherever. Yes, sure. Okay. A little stillness in your d ay. I’m reading Ryan Holiday’s new book Stillness. It’s amazing. Just have some stillness every day where you just sit there and breathe. Because our days are chaos. We’ve done this to ourselves. Society has done this. You said you have two kids. How old are your kids.


[1:10:39] Ashley James: Oh, I have one.


[1:10:41] Eliot Marshall: One, I’m sorry.


[1:10:42] Ashley James: She’s four and a half.


[1:10:42] Eliot Marshall: Four and a half. Like you’re here, you’re there, your husband, your job, your podcast, your this, your that, right? Then your phone rings, that damn cellphone. Because it never leaves you alone or did you choose to have it never leave you alone. Because you actually respond. I do the same thing. I’m as guilty as everyone. I choose to respond. One of the best things I ever did was turn that damn thing on silent. I’m not a slave to it as much. Every bit it makes like beep, beep. What’s that. Oh, a notification. Oh, Instagram. Oh, Facebook. Oh, my email. Oh, this. Oh, that. We try to say these stuff in the name of protection and security. The kids are at school so I have to have my phone on. Man, our parents didn’t have cellphone. Somehow, when I got sick at school, they found my parents. My parents came and got me. I was never stuck at school for days upon days. We do all of this in the name of security. It’s just not true. There’s not more child abductions now than there was before. So why do you have to track your kid on the cellphone?


[1:12:11] Ashley James: Did you find that your anxiety went up when you find yourself at the peak of phone notifications?


[1:12:21] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. I had to turn my phone off. Yeah, I had to stop screen time. I get 6 o’clock at night, the phone had to be done. I mean, I can do it now, I do better with it now. It doesn’t bother me as much. I didn’t have my phone on silent so every single time that thing beeped there was something for me to respond to. It’s not true. It’s just not true. Can you imagine 20 years ago? How old are you, Ashley?


[1:13:01] Ashley James: I’m going to be, I’m 39 1/2.


[1:13:03] Eliot Marshall: We’re the same age. When’s your birthday?


[1:13:05] Ashley James: March 7, 1980.


[1:13:05] Eliot Marshall: I’m July 7, 1980. Look it up. We’re like almost exact dates. A 7th. So we’re the same age, right? When you are 15 years old and somebody left the house, where did they go? They just disappeared in the ether, right.


[1:13:26] Ashley James: We just managed to find each other.


[1:13:30] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. But somehow it all works out. Mom came back with groceries and dad put them away.


[1:13:41] Ashley James: Life without cellphones was fantastic. It was weird. Every time we drive somewhere, I’m like, how did we get places without gps? I don’t remember. I don’t remember. But I remember driving to addresses that I’d never been to. How did we get there? How did we know how to get to places?


[1:13:59] Eliot Marshall: I try to do it now. As soon as I drive to a place, so I do a couple times with the gps when I go places. Then I turn the gps off and go, ‘okay, I’m going to try to remember things’ like you remember things. You should be like, okay dude. So you’re going to get to my house. After you take that left you’re going to take the third right. It’s going to be by the Shell station. You had to like do this. That’s exactly how we did it especially when we were kids and we were riding bikes.


[1:14:26] Ashley James: It’s like a whole skill that we don’t have anymore.


[1:14:31] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. It’s a whole skill. That’s important to keep. Look, I don’t want to just hate on social media and cellphones because it gives us the connection that we need. You and I, we couldn’t be doing this or have scheduled this or anything without social media and things like I’ll call. Because I call this social media and email is social media in my opinion. So, it’s not all terrible. But we need to have this balance. There has to be a little ying and yang. No victims but everything is your fault, but you got to help somebody.


[1:15:08] Ashley James: I love it. I love the constant dichotomy is great. It actually, you have to have higher thinking. You have to have developed higher mental thinking to be able to hold two opposing thoughts at once.


[1:15:22] Eliot Marshall: Because they oppose. They definitely oppose. I’m a math major. For me I think this is why getting to the religion a little bit. When it never worked there comes a point where the thought can’t be opposed. That has to just be true. That doesn’t work for me. Because everything in my life is falsifiable


[1:15:49] Ashley James: Question everything.


[1:15:53] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. Question it but you could prove it wrong to me. I wouldn’t die in the single one of my beliefs. I could be so wrong.


[1:16:03] Ashley James: Yes. You’re willing to be wrong. You’re willing to change your mind. I love that. I was so hardcore keto I don’t know three ago. Like this is the best diet in the world. I can’t believe it. A few months later, I’m like, this is really bad. What was I thinking? To be able to go, you know what, there’s some diets are really good for some people at that one point in their lives and then three months later it might be like a poisonous diet for them or a different person. It’s about finding the right diet for the right time for the needs of the person. But not buying into any dogma and so being willing to be wrong. Like I love that you say don’t die for your beliefs. Oh my gosh, people do that all the time.


[1:16:54] Eliot Marshall: Not a single one. Not to get political. I’m not going to judge you at all based on this question but are you pro-life or pro-choice?


[1:17:01] Ashley James: That’s a really, really hard question. It’s something that I’ve grappled with for a really long time. I thought when I was a teenager that I was 100% pro-life. Then I found out after my mom died my dad, the night my mom died my dad sat me down. Why he waited until she died I guess it was her wish. He said, “Do you know that you would have been an abortion? If I wasn’t pro-life…” I was like, what? My dad said to me, your mom never wanted you to know. I said to her, “No. We’re going to get married.” He completely stopped being a bachelor. He lived such a party lifestyle and he said, I love this unborn child in you and I’m going to raise her or him, because they didn’t know. He was just so, he loved life. My dad has passed since but he loved life so much and he loved people so much. He was so firm that life is so precious. That really laid an impact on me. I’m like, yeah. I can’t impose my will on anyone. So for me it’s like my body. Life is precious. I can only say pro-life in my womb because that’s the only womb I control. I wouldn’t impose on anyone else.


[1:18:27] Eliot Marshall: So the only reason I ask is because so many people, let’s just say, ‘okay, I’m pro-life but then I know that you would be pro second amendment. Then you would be pro this or pro that or against this or against that. Because we are so divided.


[1:18:46] Ashley James: Right. The second someone is pro guns. That must mean they’re this, that must mean they’re that.


[1:18:51] Eliot Marshall: That must mean they’re pro-life. If you’re pro-gun you’re pro-life. That is such crap. That is total crap that this is where we are.


[1:19:03] Ashley James: The reason why they created a two-party system, if you look at it, it’s to keep people fighting each other. If you keep the masses fighting each other they will not rise together.


[1:19:14] Eliot Marshall: Right. Because you think the other side is so terrible. If you voted for Donald Trump you are such an awful person. I can’t even be friends with you anymore. If you voted for Hilary, oh my God, her emails. We just hate each other. We just absolutely hate. Man, the day I lose a friend because of who they vote for, I have a huge problem. I have a huge problem. I’m not friends with anybody because of who they vote for.


[1:19:51] Ashley James: There was a time when I was in high school, this was in Canada, so socialized medicine –


[1:19:56] Eliot Marshall: I thought so. I thought so.


[1:20:00] Ashley James: House about. I don’t see anymore. So when I first moved here, my coworkers beat the eh out of me within one week. Every time I said eh they’d go turn on me and go b, c, d. About a week after that, it’s a habit for us to say eh. Anyways, I don’t say eh, I can’t shake the house or the about. So in Canada, I was really proud that I wasn’t afraid of shots, getting any vaccines. So I’d be the first in line. In high school, they didn’t need our parents’ permission, I got like the hep b, hep c whatever. I got a bunch of those vaccines. I got a bunch of whatever. A flu shot weren’t really big then. They were just starting to come in but I was super proud of getting them. I was first in line. I would pull up my sleeve. Yeah. Give me extra. Give me more. Give me three vaccines. Come on. I’m not afraid. I love shots. I was so pro that. Then I started to learn more and more and more about pharmaceuticals. Now, I look back, I was a completely different person than what I am now. My beliefs system, thank God I didn’t hold on to a belief system just for the idea that it was part of my identity because I have the exact opposite beliefs that I did when I was a teenager.


[1:21:24] Eliot Marshall: If I die thinking what I think right now, oh my God. Let’s just say I got to 80, if I die thinking what I think right now in 40 years, what a waste of time. What a waste of time. That means I learned nothing. It means I read no books. It means I did no study. It means I did no self-exploration. I did no growth. If I die like this, if this is where I end. Man, what a waste of time.


[1:21:56] Ashley James: I love that attitude. It’s like, ‘challenge me, challenge my belief system. Let me expand my mind.’


[1:22:04] Eliot Marshall: Please. So jiu-jitsu for me, that’s my rule number one is, me and my kids, have to jiu-jitsu because it’s ever changing. The way that you have to deal with it is ever changing. You get a live response, like in the moment. You get showed how wrong you are all the time. You have to adjust to that person. Oh, did that wrong, oh did that wrong. If you bat, when I say bat if you’re successful at 25% of the moves that you try in jiu-jitsu then you’re amazing, you’re a world champion because you’re just wrong all the time. But you get good at being wrong. You get good at adjusting. You get good at not caring about, who cares because all I do is mess up. It’s what I do better than everything else in the whole world is mess up.


[1:23:01] Ashley James: That is so cool. That concept of like if you’re actually getting it right 25% of the time you’re like a world champion. So there’s a lot of like getting it wrong and that’s okay because that’s actually good because you’re learning from each instance. I know so many people who are afraid to cook in the kitchen, are afraid to really expand their palette because you know, what comes down to it, they were never comfortable failing in the kitchen. They burnt something once, their spouse didn’t like what they cooked or whatever. It’s like this mental block.


[1:23:37] Eliot Marshall: Then they might tie their identity to it.


[1:23:39] Ashley James: Right. I’m not a cook. I’m not good at cooking.


[1:23:41] Eliot Marshall: Then they tie their ego to it. Their ego gets in the way. But if there is no self and there is no ego then how could get in the way? Right? How can it get in the way? So, if we can work on this then we can just be outside of it a little bit then maybe, possibly we can learn how to cook. Because come on, make a meal and you’re telling me you’ve never had a bad meal before. We’ve all eaten at McDonald’s.


[1:24:06] Ashley James: I was never afraid to burn things in the kitchen. I was never afraid to mess up. I was like six or seven years old, my grandmother was teaching me how to cook. She was a German Polish background so she’d perogies and shortbread cookies and this amazing chicken soup. I just loved making things in the kitchen. You know, I burnt so many things. That was just part of the process. My friends love, love eating at my place because I cook really, really healthy delicious food. But I just don’t have a fear of failure because I always am pushing the edge of the limits of what I can do. My husband’s like, “You experiment too much.” Because there’s a potential, there’s always like that fear factor. He’s looking at me, about to put the fork in his mouth, is this going to be bad, is this going to be good? I don’t know. Because when it’s good, it’s really good but I’ll serve anything even if it’s bad. So it’s just he does not know what he’s getting. I experiment. Just last night, we were over at our friend’s house. He was like, “You’re food is always good.” He looks at me. You experiment too much. I’m like, ‘That’s because Naomi only serves you the success stories. She doesn’t serve the failures.” Naomi’s like looks at him and goes, “Yeah.” We fail in the kitchen so we can learn how to make stuff better. That’s just how we succeed. But we don’t see them as failures. It’s like science and it’s an experiment. Then we go, ‘oh, less garlic, less thyme next time.’ I’m going to just do this next time or I need to set the temperature at this. It just becomes this continues ebb and flow of learning and growing the culinary skills.


[1:25:49] Eliot Marshall: There’s a saying in business. Hire slow, fire fast. That’s what you have to do because you have to realize your failure then let it go, right? I hired the wrong person, now am I going to hold on to this? Because now, again it’s going to be me who failed because I hired that person. It’s going to be me who failed because I burnt the food or I did this or I did that. Again, this all comes back to you and your ego and yourself. If we can get rid of this idea, if we can just lose this idea because we know that our ego is the enemy, then, that’s another Ryan Holiday book sorry. I steal everything, nothing is original. Somebody did it better.


[1:26:36] Ashley James: You should. Because you package it better.


[1:26:42] Eliot Marshall: I work on my spiel. I’m even doing it without cursing, look. I’ve never done this before.


[1:26:48] Ashley James: You’re doing amazing. You need to like hit the road. You need a whole show.




[1:26:56] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. We’ll get there. It’s okay. It really is okay that we fail. It’s the most amazing thing that we can do is we can fail because it’s just like courage. Courage is not, not being afraid. Courage, here comes one of my rules again, rule number four is being afraid and still doing it.


[1:27:21] Ashley James: It’s owning your fear.


[1:27:22] Eliot Marshall: It’s saying yes, I’m afraid. But you know what it’s not going to do? It’s not going to stop me. Failure is the same. Of course I’m going to fail. Man, there was this one time we were doing this thing for one of the schools. We spent $26,572.00, I remember the exact amount. It took nine months for them to build it out and then implement it. You know how fast we realized it sucked and wasn’t for us?


[1:27:53] Ashley James: I don’t know.


[1:27:54] Eliot Marshall: One week. One week. They were sitting there looking at each other going, damn it. But it’s not for us. It’s not who we are. It’s not our culture. It was so bad for us that we could see it. We had to let it go. Almost $30,000. But what would’ve been worse is just try to shove that crap down our people’s throats. What would’ve been worse is to put that out into the ether and put that out into the public so people could see that this is what we’re doing and this is how we are. That would’ve been worse because that would’ve compromised my soul.


[1:28:41] Ashley James: Or to have not taken any action in the beginning. If not done it for fear that it wouldn’t work out. Then always sit there wondering, what if I had?


[1:28:54] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. Wish I would have. What if and wish I would have are two words that I won’t say back to back.


[1:29:08] Ashley James: Unless you’re saying I won’t say them.


[1:29:09] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. But I won’t go, ‘what if this happens, what if the sun doesn’t come up tomorrow?’ All the evidence says that it will but there is this possibility. Now, am I going to live my life as what if the sun won’t come up? No, and wish I would have? I’m going to grind until the day I die.


[1:29:29] Ashley James: Awesome. It does take that conscious effort to catch yourself and go, “Oh, there I am shooting myself. Now I’m going to choose a healthier thought process.” It takes time to rewire the brain. The neuroplasticity of rewiring that brain. It does take that repetition of catching ourselves when we’re shooting ourselves and go, ‘all right, new way of being. New way of thinking.’


[1:29:56] Eliot Marshall: So there’s this competition called ADCC. It is the Olympics for grappling, for jiu-jitsu. I’ve been trying to get into this, you have to qualify or get invited, and I’ve been trying to get into this since I was 21 years old. It was the only thing in my professional career that didn’t accomplish. I got into everything else like I said. Man, this year I got in. I got an invite. At this old man age, I was the oldest guy in the whole competition. Look, there was no dreams of winning. The people that win these are 20, right? It’s like the Olympics. They dedicate their whole lives to this that I don’t dedicate. They train like I work. I train like they might actually work. If I get two hours in a day, that’s amazing. I can’t do that every day but they do. Now what got me good enough for me to be able to qualify is peace of mind. Like a different thought of how to compete. So, anyway, I get in and I have a two-time champ in the first round. It’s invite only. It’s 16 people per division. Only happens once every two years. It’s literally the Olympics. I was like, ‘you know what, I’m going to try this move right away. I’m going to sit down and I’m going to boom, I’m going to try to hit this move immediately. It’s a high risk, high reward move. I didn’t do it for the reward of it. I did it for the risk because I knew it was going to get this idea that I had to be perfect in the match out of my head right away. Immediately. I mean, look, I guess if I pulled it off I’d be on a highlight reel for the rest of my life pulling it off. I was also taking this risk that I was going to be on a highlight reel messing it up for the rest of my life. Where we landed was somewhere in the middle, more towards the bad end. It went very poorly for me. Then I’ve had to recover. I had to work my way out. Look, I didn’t win. But it got me out of the idea of I have to be perfect. Because I went into that and I was like, ‘you know what, I’m going to kill or be killed. I’m really going to go for it.’ Because I don’t want to have a boring match. I don’t want to have a match where like – right?

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[1:32:32] Ashley James: You didn’t play it safe.


[1:32:33] Eliot Marshall: Yeah. If I get killed, even at the end I was like, ‘I’m losing right now.’ I was down on points. I was like, ‘I could stay right here,’ and you never want to get finished, right? That’s when you always have to tap. That always sucks. It messes with your ego. In the moment, I was like, ’okay, here I go. I’m going to take this risk.’ Because the only way that I could actually possibly still win is to now take this next major risk of possibly getting finished. I happen. I got finished because the guy’s amazing. He’s a multiple, he’s like a 5-time, 6-time world champion. So, it is what it is. I’m 40, right? But I was super proud of myself for keeping the kill or be killed mentality all the way through the match. I blew it immediately. I didn’t go ten seconds without an absolute epic fail. Then it had no bearing in the match. I recovered to the point where it was mutual again. The score still stayed 0-0. So, yeah. Fine.


[1:33:42] Ashley James: That is so sweet. I love recovery stories. I love it.


[1:33:47] Eliot Marshall: That’s what we have to do.


[1:33:48] Ashley James: Shaking it off and like mentally recovering is a skill. Like how quickly can I bounce back? Another landmark forum experience after my mom died¸ I went and retook landmark forum which is like their foundation weekend course. That’s the course where they have you get that I’m the cause of everything in my world. People are fighting it. They’re like, ‘what about rape?’ they’re bringing out all the really, really dark stuff. By the end of the course they get it. That it’s taking responsibility so that nothing else have power over you. Then when you’re in that mentally position, you position yourself as being responsible for everything in your world. Then you are at cause in your moment. Every moment you’re at cause creating your world. So a victim of rape is no longer a victim of rape. They’re being a cause in their world. They get to decide how they move forward with their life and not allow that act that happened to them to continue to affect them years later. They’re going to seek healing.


[1:35:02] Eliot Marshall: How long are you going to take that person rape you?


[1:35:04] Ashley James: Exactly. It’s not condoning it. It’s bad. It’s horrible. It’s wrong. They should all be castrated. Seriously, maximum penalty. The person who had it happened to them, they have the power to become empowered. To find their power, right? So, anyways, that’s like the first step in the forum. So, it’s a freaking heavy weekend. I went. I would drove all the way to Montreal with a few of my friends. One of the oldest forum –


[1:35:37] Eliot Marshall: Where in Canada are you from?


[1:35:38] Ashley James: I’m from Toronto. Yeah. I’m from North York. One of the oldest forum leaders who have been doing it for like 30 years, I asked him. I’m like, ‘You know, I just lost my mom a few months ago and I’m really depressed. I’m grieving really heavily and I want to, I just couldn’t get out of this loop. I want to make sure I’m grieving healthfully.’ He told me a story. He goes, ‘You know, I was leading a landmark forum,’ he was leading this class for hundreds of people. It was a really big class. They only had like 15-minute break. So he comes out and it’s his break and he’s drinking some water or something. He gets a phone call and his brother had just died of a heart attack. His mind just starts going off. He goes, ‘I thought about our last phone call. I can’t remember if I said I love you or not. I didn’t say I love you. We had a fight. It just started vicious cycle over and over again.’ He started feeling guilty and shame and blaming and agree. His mind was just messed up like anyone would be to get the news that their brother had died. He only had 15 minutes to recover and go back on stage because the lives of these people are at stake, right? They’re all there to get a transformation for their life. He can’t just check out mentally. So he had to like seriously have a moment just like you did where it’s like he had to recover. So he caught himself. This is what really hit me is that even the healthiest people in the world, the healthiest people in the world still would catch the cold once in a while. But it’s how fast their body heals. It’s how fast their body gets over it. So they might have a fever, go to bed with sniffles and wake up the next day and be totally fine. Whereas the average person is in bed for a week or two, right? It’s not that we’re invaluable. It’s not that you get so good at personal growth that you never fail or never slip up. It’s how fast you recover. So he share the story of how he was able to recover from that. He said to himself, he just got in touch with what so, with reality. What is real in the now? He said to himself, ‘I miss him. I love him. I’m sad,’ about his brother. I can’t remember his brother’s name. He’s like, “I miss Tom. I love him. I’m sad. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad.’ Any other thought was not what so, it wasn’t real. It was a made up story. He didn’t know I loved him or it’s my fault. I should’ve done this. I should’ve done that. All of that was just tripping him up. But if had just gotten in touch with the what so, what so is I miss him, I love him, I’m sad. That’s what kept him present in the moment. Then he recovered. Then he got back on stage and he led an amazing weekend for those people. Some people might say he wasn’t grieving healthfully or he was like shoving it down. He wasn’t ignoring his feelings. He was owning them. He wasn’t pushing them away. He is in them. He went through them just like you said, go through it. He went through it. He owned. He recovered. He said, eventually the sadness went away. Then he just said, ‘I miss him, I love him.’ He said, ‘he’s gone. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad. He’s gone. I miss him. I love him. I’m sad.’ Then eventually it was, ‘he’s gone. I miss him. I love him.’ That really helped me with my grieving because it’s like, yeah I had so much going on in my head about blaming myself. I mean my mom died of cancer. I was 22 years old and yeti felt like it was my fault or I could’ve done so. If only I had done this. If only I had done that, right? So I had to own what so and then really get all that stuff that’s not so is not real and stop holding it against myself. I love that your story shows that in the most intense situation. You chose to do something completely ballsy and you’re totally okay that it messed up because you recovered really quickly mentally and it’s all mental, right? Because your game is in your head. So you mentally recovered and you physically recovered and then you like shook it off and you kept fighting.


[1:40:06] Eliot Marshall: So for me, we have to practice, right? We have to practice for when the big moments come. Like when your mom dies and your brother dies. Because let me tell you, you know when it’s not a big moment? Who the world champion is. What’s your favorite sport?


[1:40:25] Ashley James: Hockey?


[1:40:27] Eliot Marshall: Hockey, who won the Stanley cup in 2011?


[1:40:30] Ashley James: Oh geez, I have no idea. I’m not great.


[1:40:33] Eliot Marshall: Hold on. I love jiu-jitsu. I love jiu-jitsu. Guess what, I don’t remember who the world champion was either. Okay. Because how can it actually matter? If we don’t know who the very, very, if we have to Google who the very, very best was at said activity in that year, at that moment, then it can’t really actually matter. So what is the point of this? The point of this is for me to go out there and practice being in the moment. So even if I would’ve won that match it still wouldn’t have mattered because what’s going to matter is my kids going to need me at some point. My kids going to need me maybe on my worst day. When my mom dies or something and I’m going to have to show up. I still going to have to show up. So that’s the practice that I’m doing. These tough moments that I choose to put myself in, come on. You think somebody cares who wins a barely legal street night on a Saturday night? No. Nobody cares. Because if they did they would remember them all but we sure do remember the times when we really needed somebody. So those are the moments I’m practicing for. Those are the moments that I’m always practicing for. That’s why I choose to do really hard stuff. I like hard stuff. I like working out really intensely. I know about the physical benefits. Yes. I like the mental benefit.


[1:42:08] Ashley James: I actually got to hang out with Marilu Henner a few times. She’s an actress. She was in Taxi. She was on the Apprentice. I thought she was really good on the Apprentice. She has this crazy ability that she has photographic memory but you can tell her what happened on May 7, 1982. She will tell you everything that happened, or you could say to her if you’ve met her a few times, tell me every date we ever like every period in time we ever met each other. She just remembers dates and what happened on each day. She’s a really cool public speaker. We had an opportunity to hear her a few times. We were actually in Cancun with her at one point. She has this thing where she says, ‘Choose your heart.’ She has a whole spiel obviously that comes with it. But the point is choose your heart. Don’t sit there and worry about stuff and try to stay safe and try to keep comfortable, right? Because the more we try to stay safe and keep comfortable the more uncomfortable and unsafe we’ll be down the road.


[1:43:32] Eliot Marshall: God, it’s so terrible. It’s so terrible what we do though, right? It goes back to our kids. You know, all the stuff we do to make our kids safe.


[1:43:40] Ashley James: Then we’re just making them unsafe because we’re making them so naïve and so sheltered.


[1:43:45] Eliot Marshall: So sheltered. I read this great book. It’s called the Coddling of the American Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It’s got this amazing line in it. ‘Are you preparing your kid for the road or are you preparing it the road for your kid?’ We know we can’t prepare the road for the kid because we don’t know what the road looks like. You can’t prepare it. It’s impossible. So you have to prepare the child. You have to prepare the child and you. Where we blow this is that our kids’ failures are our failures. That their sucking at soccer is us or their bad great at school. So what did we do? We stopped keeping score and we stopped giving them grades. You’re child’s four, I don’t know how many sports she plays yet or if she’s into them. But let me tell you, the no scoreboard thing is terrible. It’s awful. You should see what happens. Because we have to options with the no scoreboard thing. If we don’t want to keep score, then we also have to teach our kid not to count. Because if they can count, they’re going to keep score. Since there’s not a board that says the score, they scream the score out. God forbid it’s a blowout. ‘It’s 42-2.’ Because they’re counting. If the actual 42-2 is just right on the board, they wouldn’t count.


[1:45:22] Ashley James: And rob it in each other’s faces?


[1:45:24] Eliot Marshall: No. it seems like they’re robbing it in each other’s faces when they’re screaming 42-2 but they’re not. They’re just counting. They’re just counting. It seems that they’re bragging but they’re six and they’re five so you practice what you’re learning, right? You’re learning how to count and stuff in school so that’s what you’re doing. Now, look. If you just put the scoreboard up there, they wouldn’t do it. It wouldn’t seem like bragging. They wouldn’t be screaming at each other. None of this would be going on. We could actually talk to our kids about, ‘hey Canan,’ that’s my oldest,  ‘this is how you deal with winning by that much. Hey Canan, when you’re on the other side of 42-2, I know that feels really bad. So now we’ve got some chances that we can make. So we can either quit and give up or we can try to learn how to play basketball better. Now look, I won’t even say quitting and giving up isn’t your thing because maybe you have two left hands and you can’t dribble and athletics is just not right for you. Maybe art is or maybe this is. But let’s go find what you’re great at. That’s okay. I’m find with it. We’re not quitting this season. You chose to play basketball so we’re sticking out. I get it. Not for you man. So, I know I loved basketball but that’s okay that you don’t. What are we going to do for you to be amazing? This has nothing to do with me.’ So all of this prepare your kid for the road stuff it’s all back on us. We just can’t handle our kids sucking.


[1:47:04] Ashley James: It’s robbing them of how learning through failure. It’s robbing them.


[1:47:11] Eliot Marshall: Have you learned any other way?


[1:47:13] Ashley James: No. I do not learn from success. I learn from failure and then I tweak and I go, ‘oh that worked. Okay, keep doing that.’


[1:47:20] Eliot Marshall: How’d your child learn how to walk?


[1:47:21] Ashley James: Right. A lot of wobbly.


[1:47:23] Eliot Marshall: He just failed. A lot of wobbly, right? It does this rock thing. It does shoulder to shoulder, on its back and then it can roll over. That took a couple of months. Then he or she does this thing where they start to get up on their hands and knees and they slip out. Then they do this thing where they get up on their hands and feet and they rock back and forth like they’re getting ready to crawl. They do that for a couple of weeks, right? This was my two anyway. Then they crawl and then they fall over. Then they get back up. Then they start to pick themselves up on objects like on couches. This is where things get really bad because now they’re about to be mobile. You can’t just put them down anymore. They won’t be in the same spot when you get back. Then they start crawling or walking along a couch. Then they get really brave. They get really, really brave. They let go of the couch and then what happens? They fall. It doesn’t stop them. Somewhere along the line we do something to them that stops them with their learning that they think that this doing poorly is really, really bad. It’s just not. It’s just a lesson. Man, sometimes you got to say, ‘Hey Johnny, that wasn’t good.’ You cannot say, ‘Johnny, that wasn’t good,’ and then walk away from them. You have to say, ‘Johnny, that’s not good. I’m going to be here with you until we figure out either how to make it good or how to change directions. But I’m not leaving you. I’ll never leave you. So let’s do this. Which one?’



[1:49:08] Ashley James: I love it. I love it. Own failure. Be excite about it so we can learn it. Learn from it and grow from it and be willing to push ourselves outside of our comfort zones to be okay with the failure. I know it sounds cliché, but it’s like that is the most joy you’re going to get. I played softball and our team came in dead last. I mean I don’t think we won any games. I look back at that so fondly. I had so much fun. We just tried our hardest, you know. We weren’t crying. We weren’t butt hurt. We were hitting the balls as much as we could and running as fast as we could. We just really sucked and that’s okay. I look back on the times I played softball and I had so much fun. I noticed I was a bit better at the end of the season, right? If we probably kept going year after year we would’ve improved. It’s okay. It’s okay to not be perfect. It’s okay to burn something in the kitchen. It’s okay to not be able to run the marathon.


[1:50:27] Eliot Marshall: Then there’s Tiger Woods, right. There’s Tiger Woods who had an overbearing dad who pushed him into this. I’m reading this chapters in Stillness. His dad was intense. There’s a Tiger Woods chapter. I mean his dad in his swing while he was swinging he would through change at him and hit him with things. He called him a little n word. ‘You little n word.’ He made Tiger into this stone cold killer that Tiger Woods became. But it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough. Tiger is probably the best golfer that’s ever played. He’s for sure made the most money and what happened? It just fell apart. It fell apart. How did he get it back? Because he just got it back in the masters this year, right. He went a decade without winning a major. What changed? He changed. He started to love people. He started to love the crowd. He used to hate the crowd. Hate them. Hated the other players on tour because that’s what his dad made him into being. Then he saw how wrong it was. He reconciled with his ex-wife. I don’t mean reconciled like they’re back together. They’re not back together. They’re able to co-parent, which is what’s more important than that, right? That’s the biggest thing that that guy has to fix. That relationship with his ex-wife so that they could actually be good parents together. Because there’s going to be times, who’s going to be at the graduation? Mommy or daddy? Man, that’s awful for a child. That’s what he fixed. I mean this story to me is one of the most amazing stories there is. Then he was able to come back. He was able to do what he did at the masters. Look at what it did for us. It’s the first time since September, since 9/11, right? Since 2001 that every single person watching something agreed. On Sunday, everyone wanted Tiger to win. That’s what was amazing. Because damn, we love a success story. We love the success story of Tiger. But man, do we love even more to watch someone fall and then rise again. That’s the Jesus story. We love it. We eat it up. We love to watch it come true, He couldn’t have done that without totally breaking himself down. That’s what he have to do. Then look what it did for us. It was amazing. People that don’t even like golf were sitting in bars watching Tiger Woods cheered like they’ve been cheering for him since 1997. Because it’s amazing. It gave you some hope that as a 40-year-old that you could reinvent yourself. That it’s not over.


[1:53:59] Ashley James: Brilliant. It’s never over.


[1:54:02] Eliot Marshall: It’s over when the dirt comes on top. My eyes closed.


[1:54:08] Ashley James: When they put you in the ground, then it’s over.


[1:54:09] Eliot Marshall: It’s over you know. Until that point, we need to thank the people that came before us and live for the people that our coming with us. For me, I just did something that was really interesting. Like I said, my grandparents survived the holocaust but I’m not religious. If you ask me what I am, I’m Jewish because of them, because of their suffering. Last Wednesday was Yom Kippur and you’re supposed to fast on Yom Kippur. I’ve never fasted before. But man, I felt the need to fast and I’m going to fast every year on Yom Kippur until it ends and it’s for them. It’s to pass on my family’s tradition. I told this to all of my students, I told all my students on Tuesday night because it was Tuesday night to Wednesday night. I said, ‘look guys, I’m going to fast tomorrow because my grandparents survived the camps. What happened to my grandfather while in the camps, he swore that when Hitler came, I know we started with this, that his family was always going to get out. He was going to make it so that we would be okay. His blood would always be okay. That man saw everyone die. Like when the ghettos were raided, that was it. That was the last time he saw any of his family. He had nine brothers and sisters, a mom and dad, everything. That was done. That was the last. It was over. He then saw his wife die before him. His oldest child, my uncle died before he died. Then he died finally. So the blood that he didn’t see die was my mom and me and my sister. I can remember my whole life, he just wanted me to do something like financially secure. Do this, do this, right? Like so that I could be be my own boss. He fought me the whole way in this martial arts thing. I always said I was going to open my own martial arts school. He fought me the whole way. Then, when he was dying, I went and took my oldest son because my oldest son was a baby at the time and I took him to see him. So that he could see him before he died. He got to meet him. My wife took my baby and left. It was super obvious that this was going to be it. This was going to be the last time that I saw my grandfather. We started crying, my mom started crying. He looked to my mom and he said, “Just give him whatever he wants. Give him whatever he wants when he wants it.” So, he died with a little bit of money on him, look, just like a little bit. What it did was that my mom did it. My mom gave me that money and that’s what opened my first school to let me buy into that school. I don’t have anything in my life without that, without his sacrifice. Without his whatever it is that he did. So, I’m going too fast. I’m not fasting every year because I believe in any of that stuff. I’m fasting for them. Again, it comes back to people. Help people and pass it along. Because what he did for me, I can’t pay that back, right? I can’t pay that back. It goes back to everything that we were talking about, right? That terribleness of the concentration camps. What it lead to was this amazingness that I have with my jiu-jitsu schools. That’s what ended up saving my life, right? That’s what saved my life when it went dark for me. The awfulness. So, when we talk about the holocaust and things like that. We’re talking about ownership. He just said, ‘look, of course it’s not his fault.’ He’s going to make it so that nobody, his blood doesn’t ever have to deal with this again. Now I get to have this amazing thing that I have. This community of martial arts. It’s more than a community of martial arts. It’s a community of family where man, I get to employ my best friends. They don’t have jobs, they have careers. They have careers. They’re never going to go do anything else unless they want to. They’re going to be able to take care of their families, you know. That’s all because of this awful thing that was the holocaust. That’s why all of this happens. So, for me a little bit of suffering and a little bit of sitting back, realizing that one day a year, I can handle that.


[1:59:03] Ashley James: You said you can’t pay him back but you can pay it forward


[1:59:06] Eliot Marshall: The only thing I can do is try to make more people be as lucky as I was from that moment. Everyone that comes in contact with me, I just want them to be so lucky. I want them to be like, ‘God man, I’m going to find my power.’ Because look, from the holocaust to here. You can draw the line. You can draw the line of my family from one of the most awful things that’s ever happened in the history of the world to where we are today. To where I am today. It’s a straight line. You don’t even have to make a turn.


[1:59:43] Ashley James: I love it. That’s brilliant. Thank you so much Eliot Marshal for coming on the show today and sharing some sage, sage wisdom with us. It’s been a real pleasure hanging out with you today. You’ve given us a lot to chew on.


[2:00:02] Eliot Marshall: Just hey, you can do it. You can do it. If you’re one of the ones suffering, just know you’re not alone. If you’re not one of the ones suffering, go make someone’s life better. Just watch what happens. Don’t worry about your life. If you’re not suffering, then man, your life’s doing pretty good. So go make someone else’s life better and then now we’re talking. Thank you so much. I mean, I love this two-hour thing because we got to really talk.


[2:00:39] Ashley James: Yes. Awesome. It’s such a pleasure having you on the show Eliot. You’re welcome back anytime. This was great. Of course the links to everything Eliot Marshal does, his books and his podcasts are all going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast, learntruehealth.com. Eliot, is there anything that you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview? Any final homework that you want to give us.


[2:00:56] Eliot Marshall: I would like you to give me some homework. Is that okay?


[2:01:00] Ashley James: Oh my gosh, I have homework for you. Are you ready it?


[2:01:02] Eliot Marshall: Yeah.


[2:01:03] Ashley James: I was going to do it when we’re done recording. I’m going to hook you up with my friend Forrest Knutson. His website is That Yogi Guy. He has a ton of videos on YouTube. Really entertaining because he wants to obviously people to actually watch them. So, he makes this entertaining videos teaching create yoga, which is again not stretchy yoga but like mind stretchy yoga. So, I’m going to hook you up with Forrest. You should chat with him. He loves teaching people how to make meditation even deeper and fast and even better at it. Then I’m going to put you in touch with some of my content for eliminating anxiety because these tools, these neurolinguistic programming tools are outstanding when it comes to just bending the mind so it focuses on what you want instead of what you don’t want to get to the root cause of anxiety. The last thing I was going to turn you on to, because a lot of people get really good results with this, I’m sure you take supplements and all that. Magnesium is the most important mineral in the body for everything. It has 1,800 processes, enzymatic processes they’ve figured out that the body needs magnesium for. So it’s more important than calcium but when we’re deficient in it, which a lot of people are, we actually can have physical anxiety and be in stress response easier. You talked about sleep. People who use this magnesium noticed better sleep, deeper, more restful sleep. So people who are deficient magnesium, I mean it’s over 200 symptoms of magnesium deficiency but sleep problems is one of them. Anxiety is another. So, it’s really hard to get enough magnesium orally because of how the gut works. It just goes out the other end really quickly. So, IV has been sort of the best way but no one’s going to go into a doctor’s office every week and like go get intravenous magnesium. That’s just not economical. The other way is this concentrated liquid from the Zechstein Sea in Scandinavia that contains not only magnesium in its most absorbable form for the body, but also other co-factors. So, you take this concentrate and you put it in a little water and put your feet in it. You soak for an hour and you could be like doing a podcast right now with your feet soaking. I always do it when I’m doing something else too. I’m in the desk or I soak when I’m in the sauna. It’s not like you’re sitting there going, ‘darn, I have to soak and I have nothing else to do.’ That doesn’t ever have to happen. You could always do it while you’re doing something.


[2:03:47] Eliot Marshall: We don’t live in that world anymore.


[2:03:48] Ashley James: We don’t live in that world, no. People have done, it’s thousands of people, have done the blood test called the magnesium RBC test where they their magnesium before and after 30 days soak challenge. Their magnesium goes up to healthy levels. So they’ve done all kinds of test on it. But it’s really, really cool. So, I’m going to hook you up with the magnesium soak that I love. 3, Bowen, who I’ve had on the show several times, created it after she was 78 pounds, having 30 seizures a day in a wheelchair. She tells her story. It’s really amazing. Magnesium was a major major part of her recovery. That’s why she created the company. The company she was sourcing from, they started their quality went down so she decided to make her own. So, she gets it from the Zechstein Sea. She sells it in liquid form, not in the flake. People go, ‘You could save money by using flakes.’ It’s not the same. They’ve chemically processed it. They’ve taken a lot of the co-factors out. It does not raise magnesium RBC levels the same. So people get a really, really positive difference. So, I’m going to hook you up with Kristen Bowen. Her website is livingthegoodlifenaturally.com. That’s a mouthful.


[2:05:00] Eliot Marshall: Now, it’s okay. I’m stoked too. I’m stoked


[2:05:02] Ashley James: Livingthegoodlifenaturally.com. The listeners get a discount, LTH, gets the discount. I’m going to make sure. I’m going to send an email and hook you up with Forrest and hook you up with Kristen Bowen. Then I’ll send you some links for the free you anxiety. I have some interviews where I teach some of my stuff. Anyone listening that wants to know for more information, Forrest Knutson who’s an amazing meditator. He’s thatyogiguy.com. The magnesium soak, I’m totally, totally obsessed with. I’ve been doing it over a year. My son for example, they’re hyper. They’re three years old, right. He was three years old at the time. He’d always fight us to go to sleep. He’s an Aries if you know astrology. He’s just like, he’s all about being in the now and being awake 24/7. We put him through the magnesium soak in his bath. It’s not like he knew. It’s a blind test. He didn’t know we put it in his bath. He started to tell us he was ready for bed. He’s like, ‘I’m ready. Could we go read some books? I’m ready for bed.’ We’re like, ‘what?’ So it really, really works. A lot of my listeners said it really helped. So, that’s livingthegoodlifenaturally.com, coupon code LTH. The third thins is on my website, learntruehealth.com there’s a tab at the top that says, Anxiety or Free Your Anxiety or you can type anxiety into the search bar. You can get all my episodes where I teach. Then I have a class. It’s only a few hundred dollars where I teach 21 lessons between 30 and 45 minutes long, 21 of them. It’s just like for a few hundred dollars. It’s everything I’ve taught since 2005 with all of my clients who have amazing success with eliminating anxiety. So, those are my three pieces of homework I’m going to send you some emails.


[2:06:53] Eliot Marshall: I appreciate it. I was going to ask for it. I wanted to bring it up that way. Yes, I do take Lexapro. I’m trying to come off of it. We talked about it beforehand. I’m just trying to come off of it just to see what the work that I’ve done over the last three years has been like. Just a test.


[2:07:12] Ashley James: Test yourself and go. How far have I come?


[2:07:15] Eliot Marshall: Maybe the Lexapro allows me to really go far. That’s okay too. I’m okay with going back on in I have to. So I’m kind of in the middle of it. It’s not the most comfortable thing because there are some definite side effects to it. I would like to still keep going for a little bit and keep challenging. We talked about it offline but I think it’s really important for people to know online too. You are not suffering alone. Whatever you do, there’s this huge stigma around SSRIs and things like that. If you need you need it.


[2:07:50] Ashley James: It’s better to be on it and be alive and be thriving than to not be on it and to like go somewhere very dark.


[2:08:00] Eliot Marshall: We only get one chance at this beautiful thing that we call life. Man, to go through it. Yes, I do love suffering, but to go through it truly suffering like fighting everyday just to be alive. That’s not living guys. So, if you need help, get help. Please, in whatever way you need to. Thank you for the homework. I appreciate that.


[2:08:26] Ashley James: Awesome. Well Eliot, it’s going to be fun having you on the show in a year or two. You can let us know the follow up. How has it been? I like doing that with guests where they come back and they share like, ‘all right. Well I got off that med and this is what happened then. Then I wrote my book.’ Whatever. You’re going to share the updates because we’re never done learning.


[2:08:48] Eliot Marshall: Maybe I won’t be off.


[2:08:49] Ashley James: Maybe you won’t be off.


[2:08:51] Eliot Marshall: Maybe I won’t be off. That would be okay too. There’s no attachment to that, right? Everyone’s truth isn’t the same. So it’s going to be okay either way.


[2:09:04] Ashley James: I want to hear the update to your continuous journey because you’re constantly striving to grow. So, that’s always going to be an adventure to have you back.


[2:09:13] Eliot Marshall: Are you on Instagram Ashley?


[2:09:14] Ashley James: @learntruehealth


[2:09:18] Eliot Marshall: @learntruehealth. I’m going to follow you in a second. Oh man, I really enjoyed this. Thank you very much.


[2:09:25] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you. It’s been such a pleasure having you on the show today and can’t wait to keep in touch with you and have you back on the show and have you share your continuous journey with us.


[2:09:38] Eliot Marshall: Sounds great Ashley. Have a great night.


[2:09:40] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to learntruehealth.com/coach and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors’ offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to takeyoursupplements.com and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s takeyoursupplements.comTakeyoursupplements.com. That’s takeyoursupplements.com. Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.

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Eric Thorton And Ashley James


  • Microdosing psilocybin mushrooms for healing wounds and trauma unresolved by therapy
  • Where to find a doctor that support psilocybin mushrooms
  • Where to buy psilocybin mushrooms
  • Psilocybin mushrooms is not legal in every state or country
  • Factors to consider in using mushroom
  • Microdosing psilocybin reduces bipolar disorder and schizophrenia
  • Predatory energy
  • Looking at food and nutrients from a different perspective
  • Natural healing starts and will be with you for the rest of your life
  • Corporate thought forms
  • How important food is to our brain


In this episode, Eric Thorton will share with us today about microdosing psilocybin mushrooms and how it helps the body to heal physically, mentally, and emotionally. We will also discuss where to find doctors who support these mushrooms and where to find them.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. Today we have back on the show Eric Thorton. He has been a repeat guest. What an interesting, interesting guest he is. If you haven’t heard of my episodes with Eric Thorton, I urge you to go back and listen to them. You can find all of them easily by going to learntruehealth.com and typing in Eric Thornton. And all of the episodes that we’ve been in will pop up on my website.

You may never have been to my website, learntruehealth.com, because most people do listen to the podcast through their podcast app. So learntruehealth.com gives you a lot of resources that you don’t have access to when you listen through any of your podcast apps. So you can you can keep listening to your podcast app but be sure to check out learntruehealth.com because we transcribe our episodes now. We’ve been doing that for the last few months. Thank you so much to the transcriptionist listening to this right now and typing everything I say. I am truly grateful. It takes a lot of work to transcribe our episodes. But because so many of the listeners kept telling me that they would listen to episodes two or three times and take notes so that they could implement all of the wonderful learnings. I just knew that it would be helpful to you if we transcribed. So please go to learntruehealth.com and take advantage of the fact that we transcribed the episodes.

Also, there’s some great resources there. I created a seven day course, a free course with Naturopaths that I just love. We filmed that here at our house and put those videos together for you. They’re wonderful foundations of health videos. And it’s all free. It teaches you some great information. And that is right on the front page so sign up for that.  Lots of great goodies on my website so check it out.

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Enjoy today’s interview. It’s such a unique topic. It’s so cool to explore these wonderful, unique perspectives. Thank you so much for being a listener. And thank you so much for sharing these episodes. And I have a feeling you’re going to be sharing this episode with someone because it’s quite interesting and remarkable. This concept of microdosing psilocybin mushrooms to be able to heal mentally and emotionally. And so we explore all that in today’s interview.

Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 386.

We’re back here with Eric Thorton. We were able to figure out the audio issues from the last episode. So today we’re sounding so much better than last time.



[3:52] Eric Thorton: Great to be here.



[3:53] Ashley James: Yeah. Great for me to be here, too, in your healing studio here in Cottage Lake, Washington. It is always a pleasure to be here and join you for another very interesting interview. And today is going to be –



[4:06] Eric Thorton: A little out of this world.



[4:10] Ashley James: A little out there, man. A little out there. When you first shared with me that clients of yours are using small doses – microdoses –



[4:19] Eric Thorton: Microdoses, yes.



[4:20] Ashley James: – of the psilocybin mushrooms. Psilocybin mushrooms, the psychedelic or magic mushrooms but microdoses under the care of a physician that they’re having outstanding results in healing deep trauma – deep wounds and wounds and trauma that were unable to be resolved in any other therapy.



[4:49] Eric Thorton: Including here.



[4:50] Ashley James: And so your guides shared with you, right?



[4:54] Eric Thorton: Yes, I did.



[4:54] Ashley James: So yeah, I’d love for you to just kind of take us back to that moment when your guides first said, “Hey man. You need to do some shrooms.”



[5:03] Eric Thorton: First of all, I’ve never done shrooms. So I was a little shocked. But I was working with a client who had done shrooms, just sitting talking with the client. And the guide to go, “You need to do that.” And I literally – I was like – so they call that gobsmacked. I was speechless. It got me like, “Really?” And they go, “Yes. That will really help you out. You have some deep stuff that you’ve seen but you can’t get to.” And I go, “Okay. So if you recommended it.” So then I found out the procedures and finding a doctor that did this and went to him. And we did this microdosing. I had five major breakthroughs, major breakthroughs, including one where I got – my little brother died when I was eight and I lost all my memory of that. I stuffed the memory so it was less painful. And so I didn’t have any of the memories from eight backward. And they all came back to me. Every single memory. Including down to, literally, the smell of things. And it’s all there. I can access any moment at any time. I was – I guess the word I used earlier, I was gobsmacked with that too. So anyway, so then I mentioned it and clients started to go, “Oh, yeah. Done that. Done that.” I can find places and do their thing. Some recommended the doctor.



[6:35] Ashley James: When you said find places and do the thing, what do you mean by that?



[6:39] Eric Thorton: There are persons on their own. They can – I recommend the doctor and they’ve found places to get the doctor recommendation go to them. And then they found other places to buy the psilocybin in microdosing amount.



[6:57] Ashley James: So like Colorado where it’s legal now, and Canada. Many of the states and many countries, it’s not illegal even in micro doses. So we’re having a hypothetical conversation right now because we are talking about a controlled substance for many listeners. We’re depending on where they’re located.



[7:16]  Eric Thorton: And I can’t recommend that. I can recommend the doctor. But I can’t recommend illicit activity. 



[7:25] Ashley James: Right. And the doctor you worked with is really going out there on a limb because he’s working with a controlled substance.



[7:32] Eric Thorton: Yes. And in Washington State they – and Oregon, I understand, they’re trying to pass that it can be used in therapeutic situations. Because as you’ve read, the FDA is studying them.



[7:45] Ashley James: Right. I have it up on my phone right now. About a year ago, the FDA approves magic mushrooms, the psilocybin therapy trial for treatment resistant depression. And there’s tons of trials. That’s just one of them that I wanted to quote because if you’re doing microdoses, it’s not like a street drug where your intention isn’t to get high.



[8:05] Eric Thorton: Correct. You do it, actually, it’s recommended that you take the microdose right before bed. Not when you’re awake. And then the breakthroughs, sometimes they can come to you in a dream. But they usually happen a day or two, a week, or a month later. My last one was three months after I was done with the microdosing.



[8:30] Ashley James: That’s amazing.



[8:30] Eric Thorton: It is. It’s absolutely phenomenal. But all the things that I’ve noticed with clients who found their own route with that, it woke up past life for me. And I’ve done it and I facilitated that. And one client she said, it changed her personality completely. She was an anxious person all the time. Couldn’t get out of it. And she’s not now.



[9:02] Ashley James: So I did shrooms twice when I was a teenager. Right?



[9:07] Eric Thorton: That’s two more times than I did it.



[9:10] Ashley James: For me, I mean, it was the point – it was with a bunch of friends. It was New Year’s. The first time, I went over a friend’s house and he’s like, “Hey, I got these fun things to munch on.” And then we watched some scary movies. And then I was super duper afraid. I think it was like [inaudible 00:09:29] was one of the movies. It was really scary. And then I went to bed and I was really grateful the movie was over. And that’s it. But the whole point was to get high. And then the second time was we drink mushroom tea at New Year’s, like 1996 or something. And that was, again – and that was a really positive experience. We all just hung out and laughed. And for me, that was a much better experience than a bunch of us getting really drunk. Because  I never liked alcohol. So you know, I felt like much more in control. But everything was just very pleasurable. But when you’re doing the doses intended to get you high or hallucinate, do they still have the emotional breakthroughs or the emotional breakthroughs only happen in microdoses?



[10:19] Eric Thorton: Well, the emotional breakthroughs – there’s several things that come into play here. One, you mentioned you did it when you were a kid. So someone went out and picked mushrooms. Well, that’s a fresh mushroom. And it’s inconsistent with the amount of psilocybin in it. There’s many different types. In fact, all mushrooms have psilocybin in it. And fact is, it’s recommended by the people I work with to cook even [inaudible 00:10:49] before you eat them because heat kills the psilocybin. So your psilocybin tea, you hardly have any psilocybin in it because the heat – it was hot water they put on mushroom, kills the psilocybin.



[11:04] Ashley James: And maybe that’s why the second time was more enjoyable because it was –



[11:08] Eric Thorton: Because it was a smaller dose. And then there is of the types that you can find in nature. Ones that will kill you. And there’s ones that I understand that’s been my experience with clients, too, there’s ones when you touch them, they give you a purple color. And when you touch them, they give you a black color. Well, they’re both used to get high. But the ones that are with the black color are more for medical therapy. From what I was been told and my research online for things like Parkinson’s and that type of therapy. Were the ones with the purple color, when they’re fresh, are the ones used for psychological therapy. And now, I am not quoting anybody that’s just been my experience.



[12:00] Ashley James: Right. Well, there’s many kinds of mushrooms.



[12:04] Eric Thorton: And you can die from mushrooms.



[12:05] Ashley James: Oh, absolutely. If you go out and you start picking mushrooms –



[12:09] Eric Thorton: Right. So this is not for any endorsement of going out and picking mushrooms.



[12:13] Ashley James: Right. Unless you know what you’re doing.



[12:15] Eric Thorton: Even then, your mushrooms are inconsistent. And so with the microdosing, they test the amount of psilocybin in naturally dried mushrooms. And then they grind it up to get the right amount in it for the medicinal side in the capsule. And so it’s scientific. So you get the certain amount of psilocybin with every single dose. And when you go and you just take a fresh one, you don’t know how much you’re getting. So I have noticed, I have one client who found their way – God only knows – got ones with the black. And that, what I’ve noticed, causes the brain a lot of problems for a long period of time. And she noticed that too.



[13:05] Ashley James: What do you mean by problems?



[13:06] Eric Thorton: It caused her actually more anxiety.



[13:09] Ashley James: So there are side effects.



[13:10] Eric Thorton: There are side effects, right. And it caused her body feeling neurological problems. And found she got it from some weird source. And I just went, “What did you take?” Because they were showing me she was taking the wrong thing. And it’s caused her problems. So we’ve been working with that.



[13:32] Ashley James: So your guide showed you that she was taking the wrong one.



[13:34] Eric Thorton: Yes. Right. And I didn’t know the difference at the time.



[13:39] Ashley James: I wonder if there was mold. Like, if there’s some kind of contamination. Was it the mushroom itself that was just not the right one for her? Was it contamination that was harming her?



[13:48] Eric Thorton: That, I can’t answer. I have no idea. As the guide just said she took the wrong one. She didn’t get microtherapy. She went and she got some from a person who grows them for his Parkinson’s disease. And it was like, that’s uncontrolled. There’s no science in that. There’s no measuring the amount. There’s no looking for toxins in it. It’s just picking it and putting it in your mouth. And that’s not really – to me, that’s not really a safe practice in any way, shape, or form.



[14:23] Ashley James: Right. My husband, the man sitting beside me right now – he’s waving at you guys by the way. He’s smiling and waving and nodding at the microphone.



[14:33] Eric Thorton: With a knowing in his eyes.



[14:34] Ashley James: He’s very kindly saying hello with his eyes. He’s shy. And you were just saying about when you were a kid, you’d go to Marymoor Park with your dad to do cycling and that you’d see all kinds of people picking mushrooms. And this is a big park in Redmond, Washington. And then, Eric, you mentioned that psilocybin –



[15:01] Eric Thorton: Psilocybin mushrooms, as far as the ones that you would use in therapy, grow – my understanding – is they grow where there are people. They don’t just grow out in the middle of the woods where there’s no people. Now, there could be many factors for that, like, you know, they grow if you have cows. They like cow pies. When there’s people and herd of cows. So there could be reasons for that, that they like that type of an environment. And they’re usually out in the open. They’re not in the deep woods, the type that you would use for that. But I’ve never picked them. I’ve just been told and read that they grow where there’s people because they’re for people. They’re designed for people.

Photo by Jez Timms on Unsplash


[15:46] Ashley James: It’s a beautiful metaphor.



[15:44] Eric Thorton: It’s a beautiful metaphor, correct.



[15:47] Ashley James: Regardless of whether it’s true or not, it’s a beautiful metaphor. Because I’ve heard this from several experts that when you find a poison in the woods – so you come across a plant that would harm you – that nearby is the cure. That nature is in such balance that for animals and humans – us being also animals – that wherever there’s a poison, nearby is the cure.



[16:12] Eric Thorton: That’s [inaudible 00:16:12].



[16:14] Ashley James: Yeah. So the thought that these mushrooms that can actually help us heal anxiety and heal trauma from our past and allow us to access memories to work through them with a professional that these mushrooms grow near us.



[16:31] Eric Thorton: Right. So my sons found them in the front yard at certain years. I’m going, “Why only certain years?” You know, I don’t know enough about the taxonomy of mushrooms to understand when they grow and when they don’t.



[16:47] Ashley James: Or they’re sensing your stress levels.



[16:50] Eric Thorton: Maybe.



[16:53] Ashley James: “Eric really needs these. Let’s grow in the front yard.”



[16:58] Eric Thorton: I’ve never done them recreationally. But mushrooms, from what I’ve seen with my clients, it gets into places that the conscious and current personality of the individual will not allow them to go. Period. End of subject. as far as normal healing, normal psychotherapy, and things like that. That’s why the FDA is doing the research on anxiety. Because it allows the body to go there. And then you go with someone that can help you work through it, do the energetic work with it, and it’s amazing what takes place. And I’ve noticed with the clients I’ve worked with, that they’ll get effect without the work here that we do. But then we go in and get into this amazing spaces for these people to change who they are just almost overnight out of the issues that they have found detrimental.



[18:11] Ashley James: I wonder if the microdosing of the psilocybin affects neuroplasticity. So neuroplasticity being – for those who don’t know – it’s like if you’ve done a habit, if you’ve done a pattern in your life, whether it’s an avoidance pattern or whether it’s anxiety or depression, you do a pattern. Every time you do a pattern, the neurons in the brain wire in that way deeper and deeper and deeper. And it’s harder and harder to break that old habit. Like someone who’s smoked cigarettes for 40 years versus someone who just took up smoking can quit. They haven’t ingrained the habits into their neurology on a deep level versus someone who smoked for 40 years. It’s like part of who they are.



[18:57] Eric Thorton: Well, that’s the mechanism. I guess they’re trying to find it with the research. But it’s got to be something like that. It’s never really been looked at. The guys right now are semi-affirming. So you’re on the right track.



[19:08] Ashley James: I feel like the word is neuroplasticity. That it’s –



[19:12] Eric Thorton: So it allows access. So that would be allowing access to the neuroplasticity to get that to change. And they create a better environment for the changing of those things. That would make sense. It would have to be researched. And that type of thing, you could probably seen SPECT scans and such within the brain.



[19:30] Ashley James: Right. Did the guides have anything they want to share about this therapy or about this topic?



[19:37] Eric Thorton: I don’t know how to answer that. Because I asked them questions and they affirmed we’re not.



[19:41] Ashley James: Right. I know it’s kind of like handing the mic off to the guides, “Here, just talk.”



[19:45] Eric Thorton: They don’t do that.



[19:46] Ashley James: They don’t do that.



[19:47] Eric Thorton: Unless I’m in deep meditation with them then we have conversations. But from this point of view, it’s me ask the question. And that’s why it’s so important for me to be able to verbalize and understand what’s going on a little bit with the client so I can ask the correct questions to the guides. And as you know as an interviewer, one question leads deeper and deeper and deeper. And that’s how it works with guides.



[20:15] Ashley James: That’s very cool.



[20:16] Eric Thorton: But like they said, “Yeah. You’re on the right track.”



[20:21] Ashley James: With the neuroplasticity.



[20:21] Eric Thorton: With the neuroplasticity.



[20:21] Ashley James: Very cool. Yes.



[20:22] Eric Thorton: So it will be interesting to see what the researchers find.



[20:26] Ashley James: Right. Right. Well, you know, I hope that the drug companies are not just trying to do all this research so they can make an artificial drug they’re going to charge $1,000 a pill for.



[20:38] Eric Thorton: You bet they are going to do that.



[20:42] Ashley James: I hope we’ll have access to the natural psilocybin in the microdoses. So tell me about it. So you take the one capsule –



[20:51] Eric Thorton: You take one capsule right before bed.



[20:54] Ashley James: And you go to bed. And it’s, again, a microdose that they’ve done in a lab. They’ve tested it. So it’s like a certain milligrams or microgram.



[21:00] Eric Thorton: So it’s consistent and there’s no poisons with it. There’s no fungus with it. There’s nothing to – the theory is, there’s nothing to give you that minimizes any reaction – adverse reaction you might have. And it’s controlled because it will give you the same – the 300 milligram will be consistent, or 200 milligrams or 150 milligram, capsules will be consistent throughout your therapy. Where if you just took a mushroom, put it on its scale, and it said 300 milligrams, well, that’s fine. But it’s not consistent to the next mushroom and the next one.



[21:37] Ashley James: Well, because you don’t know how much the active constituents are in each mushroom. So you do want to have the access to the ones that have been tested and impurity.



[21:48] Eric Thorton: Purity and source. So anyway, you do this every third day, so twice a week.



[21:59] Ashley James: So when you went to bed that night, were you a little nervous?



[22:02] Eric Thorton: Yeah. I’ve never done – I don’t do things like that. I’m just not that kind of person. And it’s like, it’s fine. I think it’s great when people do it. Because like I’ve worked with people with iowaska, you know, all the other POD and rest of the other ones. I forget. But I’ve never done them myself. And so I was a little apprehensive. And I just woke up and I didn’t even know I took anything. I had no idea.



[22:27] Ashley James: You didn’t wake up in the night or have weird dreams or you feel high when you woke up?



[22:32] Eric Thorton: No, no. Not at all. And I understand if you were to, you’d be within an hour of taking the actual dose. But it’s –



[22:42] Ashley James: If someone took it during the day, would they felt high or is it certain microdose that you don’t?



[22:46] Eric Thorton: I had one person said he felt kind of like he had smoked a little bit of pot. He took it during the day. And that was it. There was no hallucinations. There was no nothing. You just felt a little bit aloof. But that was it. So it was my fourth dose where I actually woke up and was like, “Oh, mushrooms.” And I just went back to sleep. But the breakthroughs came the next morning or the next day.



[23:23] Ashley James: So take us back to the next morning. So after the first dose –



[23:27] Eric Thorton: After the first dose –



[23:27] Ashley James: – what was your first breakthrough?



[23:29] Eric Thorton: The first breakthrough was the second dose. And that’s the one where the image that was given me was – which I mentioned earlier – the eight year old. But I was in a jar. And this little eight year old was in a jar on a shelf. And he was screaming to get out. And I’m going, “What?” So then I thought – and I heard from – so I heard the instructions to open the jar and let him out.



[23:59] Ashley James: When you hear instructions from your guides.



[24:00] Eric Thorton: From my guides. Right. And I said okay. So out pops this guy and he jumps – this is a vision I’m having. And he wants to come back. So then I did EMDR [inaudible 00:24:16] and talked about it and worked it through and brought him back in with the help of the guides. I couldn’t bring him back in without the help of the guides. And when he came back in, doing the therapy, and writing and journaling, and really respecting the gift, that’s when all the memories were set on the back.



[24:39] Ashley James: What’s EMDR?



[24:41] Eric Thorton: Eye Motor Desensitization And Realization.



[24:43] Ashley James: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 



[24:44] Eric Thorton: These are both – their hypnotherapies. And that was where then it woke up my working with it from past life. And then I got to see, “Okay. This is what has to be done for people if they’re going to do this.” And I thought, “Oh, well. That’s never going to happen.”



[25:07] Ashley James: What? Your clients aren’t going to do this?



[25:09] Eric Thorton: They’re not going to do this. They’re not going to come in. They’ve already done it, found it themselves, har about it. But people are talking about this stuff now. And then clients are doing this stuff. And all of a sudden they’re showing up at my door. And I’m like, “All right. Well, there you go.” And I’m just working with the after effects of their decisions. And it’s phenomenal breakthroughs. And it’s helping people. They’re doing it for depression for the study for the government. But my understanding and from what people are telling me, it reduces bipolar and schizophrenia for up to a year so you don’t have to take the medication. And it’s along the lines of LSD therapy. It’s the exact same therapy. And you can also – I don’t want to mention this one. But there is – ecstasy is a hallucinogen. And if when it’s microdosed, it can do the same thing as LSD psilocybin.



[26:20] Ashley James: Well, they’re doing this in Silicon Valley. They’re doing this in San Francisco, in the Bay Area. It’s big. It’s big in the tech world. So I’m sure they’re doing it here in Seattle. It’s big in the tech world to microdose LSD, microdose ecstasy, microdose mushrooms in order to expand their mental abilities. There’s this 19 year old that we follow online, who has made how much millions – millions of dollars now trading cryptocurrency. And he microdosed LSD and overnight was able to understand a whole new level of how the system works and how to trade. And then he teaches it. And that these people who are like –



[27:04] Eric Thorton: He’s breakthrough.



[27:05] Ashley James: Well, he had a huge breakthrough. He’s a 19 year old. He’s never been trained in it formally. And he basically outsmarted all these guys who, like, have PhDs in math, who were able to – they developed this software to watch how the markets work. And he just looked at it on LSD and it was like seeing the matrix. But it was a microdose. It wasn’t like full on, you know. I hear these stories all the time that people are using nootropics or using some form of – hopefully naturally derived –



[27:39] Eric Thorton: Hopefully.



[27:40] Ashley James: — substance to expand that neuroplasticity for the desire to be even better at what they do in the tech world. And be even more creative.



[27:54] Eric Thorton: You have to be part of this. You said “their desire.” That’s very important, is you just take it recreationally. You’re not directing the wisdom of the mushroom, those are the words I’ve used or I’ve been told. There’s a wisdom. And recreational, well, it’s going to give you recreational wisdom. But if you’re going after something and you’re open to it, and you journal about it, and you set intention before you even do the microdosing, that’s when you get the effects. If apparently, the mushroom – or your brain knows, I guess it would be the call to wisdom of the mushrooms, but – okay. But your brain knows what to do with it with you setting the intention. So doing it recreational, like you had done twice, versus the guy you just mentioned, he had a purpose. So he was able to open up the neuroplasticity of that part of his brain. So from my understanding is that does need to be done. There’s a procedure that’s done. That is being mindful, setting intention, journaling before, journaling after, getting professional feedback. And that’s what I’ve gotten from the doctors. And then we take it a step farther.



[29:21] Ashley James: Yeah, when people come to you –



[29:22] Eric Thorton: When people come to me we can get into that. Get in deeper and change and work with and create, if there’s predatory energy, for example. It’s not going to allow your brain to change. And if we can get rid of that then we’re going to allow it to change. If there’s a part of me where we did a little soul retrieval. We had to respect what took place, the severity of why that part of me was jarred or canned, whatever. And work its way back into my life where our normal journey doesn’t get there, whether we didn’t get rid of the predatory energy, the pain the child had, the trauma, the predatory energy from other people that were around me at the time, et cetera. It was all there in the jar. And when you pull that back out, you have to dissect it and get it down to the exact thing that you’re working with.



[30:25] Ashley James: Right. And so that’s why it’s so important to work with professionals like you and the doctor that – hopefully, the doctor that prescribed is also a therapist so that they’re able to help you process things. But it’s important for you to have that intention journal and then work with someone like you who can help to work with them on the energetic level and process it.



[30:50] Eric Thorton: Well, at least recommend – because you’re setting the intention, if you want psychological changes, you should be getting whether – you should be working with somebody to help you explore those changes so you can get them and access them. So if you’re just taking them and not doing anything with it, you’re not going to get the depth. Period. I mean, that’s the fact of anything. Looking at a book doesn’t get the information in your brain from reading the book. So it that same correlation. You’ve done it, you’re looking at the cover, “Is that nice?” Some people might like to get high from it or whatever. But you’re just looking at the cover of the book. It can show all sorts of details in the picture but you’re not absorbing it. And so that’s where the therapist comes in. And I can help people with that or find a therapist that’s going to help you explore that.

My therapist, I’m bringing the breakthroughs into therapy to see if I can squeeze out a little more even. I mean, it’s a different perspective. And as you know it takes a village. And I am a firm believer in that. So why not bring in to my therapist? And the therapist just went, “Yeah. That’s great.” So we’re bringing a little more out of each thing. Because like the child that popped out that we pulled back, he was a full person. Somebody did some more therapy lately and it was sound therapy. Which might be someone you’re interested in interviewing. But he looked at that moment. I brought it to him. And he goes, “Well, there’s guilt there.” And I go, “Huh. I never thought of that.” And he goes, “I just see guilt. I don’t know what it’s attached to.” But he goes, “I see guilt.” And he did some music with it and it brought up – because I was born with these gifts on. I looked at it and I asked my guide, I go, “The guilt of this eight year old.” And they go, “Well, an eight year old doesn’t have guilt.” I mean, they can feel guilty but they can’t be guilty. They’re still innocent.

Image Source:  harding.edu | Clinical Mental Health Counseling


[3:14] Ashley James: Well, what about survivor’s guilt? When a loved one dies, we can feel guilty that we were the ones that lived and they died.



[33:24] Eric Thorton: But an eight year old doesn’t have that depth. And I look back at that and there was no guilt. And there was afterward and there was guilt from the experience and the benefits that I got from that time of him passing.



[33:44] Ashley James: You felt guilty for gaining benefit from his passing?



[33:48] Eric Thorton: Yes. But not –



[33:50] Ashley James: As an adult?



[33:50] Eric Thorton: As an adult but not as a child. But of course, other people may have felt guilty because of the situation he drowned. And I took that guilt on. Because I am a healer. And it was from close loved ones. And I saw that and it was like, “Oh.” I meditated. I went to my guides. They said – and had kind of conversation. I said, “Yeah. There is guilt. But it’s not your guilt. You took it on.” And then I looked at that and I felt it in my body. And sure enough, and I came out of this really bad spot I have in my back. And it was like – and then the muscle started to shift and soft it up, because I have muscle spasm in a certain area of my back. And that was just three days ago. And it’s like I’m sleeping much better. And bringing this to and being honest and upfront with another practitioner, his point of view allowed access because I have a more verbal connection for me to go, “Okay. What is this?” And I was able to get a yet another benefit from the mushroom therapy. I can’t say enough about it as far as for what it’s helped me with.



[35:32] Ashley James: But it’s not a cure at all. You don’t just take it and then go about your business. It opens the door and you have to walk in and you have to got to do the work.



[35:42] Eric Thorton: You have to do the work.



[35:44] Ashley James: And you are like an amazing healer. And you’re going to other healers because they’re getting different – they’re allowing different perspectives. And the guides are just going to do everything for us. You can’t just sit there and be like, “Okay. Fix me.” We can’t give away our free will. We have to go and live and explore and connect with other healers and the therapist and they help us to – they help us to see deeper but we’ve got to do the work.



[36:14] Eric Thorton: We have to do the work. You mentioned free will and this is one of those pet peeves of mine. People go, “Well, it all has to be done in free will.” Of what? People go, free will of the conscious personality, free will of the subconscious personality, free will of the child personality, or free will of the soul’s personality. The body wants everything level, kind, sweet, everything. We all want that. But that’s not the purpose of life. The free will we’re looking at is to stay within the free will of the soul. It’s not the free will of the body. And at first I didn’t get that until I realized just how weak the body is. The body is a tool. And it keeps going to this place of neutrality trying to achieve that. It is in that process of trying to go there that we have the learning and the wisdom. And as soon as we get there, something else goes. Because if you’re in that neutral place, you’re in neutral.



[37:27] Ashley James: Homeostasis.



[37:28] Eric Thorton: Homeostasis. You’re not growing.



[37:28] Ashley James: It’s like purgatory. You’re not growing.



[37:30] Eric Thorton: Right. You’re not growing. You’re sitting there not growing, what’s the use? The soul is here to learn. So it’s the free will of the soul that we look at. And this seems to – and I promote this in everything I do, it takes a village. And so you have to be able to go and sit there innocently with people and their gifts. And even when people call in, we check to see if I can be used to help there or not within their free will. And if they’re not there, I don’t know. They’re not there or we’re not a match. It’s not, they’re not there. It’s just we’re not a match.



[38:12] Ashley James: Right. You’re not like, “You’re not good enough for me.”



[38:15] Eric Thorton: No. Sorry. If you implied that, I mean I didn’t mean to say that. Butt it’s like, “No. It’s just we’re not a match.” My gifts – why spend the money where you’re not going to get the most for your buck.



[38:25] Ashley James: I really respect how you work with people. So when my listeners call in before you guys work together because you can work through Skype very effectively.



[38:38] Eric Thorton: And we are doing in person [inaudible 00:38:40].



[38:40] Ashley James: Or people can come in person if they choose to, which is also great. But you’re very effective over Skype also. Because it’s energy work.



[38:50] Eric Thorton: It’s energy work.



[38:50] Ashley James: But it’s fun to see you in person. It’s fun to be here.



[38:52] Eric Thorton: It is. It’s fun to work with people in person. I love it.



[38:55] Ashley James: But when they call in, you meditate and it takes – sometimes it takes a few days. And you talk to their guides. And your guides and their guides have a little [inaudible 00:39:05] with you. And you figure out if it would be in their best interests to work with you.



[39:12] Eric Thorton: Right. And it’s their best interest. And remember it’s the best interest of the soul. It’s not the body. What the body wants is different –



[39:23] Ashley James: Homeostasis.


[39:23] Eric Thorton: — with homeostasis. It’s not what the soul needs. So we see if this perspective can help them or not. Sometimes, I guess, you would call it – they say yes, but it will be limited. And so then I tell the patient that and the client that. And because of tightly held beliefs. So sometimes they say yes. But it may be just one session. Or yes, but maybe two sessions, or no. But it’s pretty rare. But once in a while they do say no. And people that call in that just want a magic bullet to make everything better, well, sometimes that happens. But most of the time it’s a little work. Yeah. So like you mentioned, a friend that had done the iowaska for a number of times to help her immune system. Well, it helped her. That’s terrific. And there’s no one in the US that probably would have recommended that as far as a professional doctor or somebody.



[40:40] Ashley James: Right. Yeah. She went all the way to Peru. And I just published that episode. But she went all the way to Peru and had like, I think, 27 doses of iowaska. She’s on the mend. And she went for – she wanted to help her body, help her immune system, help her physical body heal. And then she started seeing emotional, spiritual energetic benefits from it as well.



[41:05] Eric Thorton: Right. Well, iowaska, it helps open us up but it’s more of the consciousness. Versus I have found iowaska doesn’t get in the same way as microtherapy. It has it’s –



[41:21] Ashley James: Microdosing.



[41:22] Eric Thorton: Microdosing. Versus the major dosing, which gives you a hallucinogenic and body high and to loosen through all your whole body. You understand. But I worked with people who’ve done iowaska and they can get in trouble energetically. But we can also repair that and bring it back. And even make iowaska look at those journeys and see what benefit we can pull out of those. And sometimes it’s pretty amazing. Sometimes I have ran into it that the person is just a drug addict and they’re substituting ayahuasca for heroin. And it’s like, “Okay. Well,  that’s how deep they are and that’s fine.” But we’re not going to pull anything else out of it. But if they had strong intention when they did it – personal intention – we can pull quite a bit out of the journey that they had in South America. I woke up past life where I’ve done this before with people, you know, 500, 600 years ago. So it’s a different story today.



[42:29] Ashley James: So you were a shaman.



[42:30] Eric Thorton: I was a healer that did iowaska [inaudible 00:42:35].



[42:35] Ashley James: In the Amazon?



[42:36] Eric Thorton: Actually, it was in what would be –



[42:41] Ashley James: Central America.  central



[42:43] Eric Thorton: Kind of central – the Amazon Basin. And I remember the past life. But I didn’t – it wasn’t woken up as to what I did. And part of it was for people that were bipolar, had mental issues. We did. I [inaudible 00:42:58] journey and followed them through the journey and helped them through the journey. Where today’s facilitators, they call them shaman. But they’re not. They’re facilitators. And so because of that, it can be a bit dangerous. And so I’ve never recommended it. I’ve seen people that have done it, then we’ve taken it and worked with it. But I’ve known people that have been damaged by it as well. Because the facilitators are trained and then they’re given the title shaman. And they’re not born a shaman.



[43:42] Ashley James: With their gifts on.



[43:43] Eric Thorton: With their gifts on. They are people that have learned techniques. And techniques don’t get in there and can’t work with hallucination. They can’t work. They don’t see what is actually going on in that person’s mind to help them. To work with them in the little fine – working with them one-on-one and being there and see what they’re seeing and experiencing what they’re experiencing and refining it and telling them where to go and what to do and what to reach for. That doesn’t happen in South America. Which is what I used to do a long time ago, you know, hundreds of years ago, was I would sit with each individual and work with them and literally be with them in there and experiencing what they’re experiencing. But fully aware and conscious. And then we maximize it for them.

That was fascinating to see that. The level I did it in the past life. And then bring that to people after they were done with the experience. Because here, that’s what we have to do. It’s amazing how the little – the fine tuning that can be done which is very important. And you have to have a very amazing facilitator to do that that you can trust. Because they can fine tune it according to their ego. So they have to listen so that they will hear the other person’s guides and say, “Okay. What do we do with this nuance? And what do we do with this nuance?” Because otherwise, they’re working out of ego and they’re going to install their – and they’re going to see the individual who’s working their problems as a problem when it’s not. It’s a beginning of a journey or a breakthrough.

But the person’s own experience, the facilitator would say, “Oh. That’s an issue. We must get rid of that.” Versus the guy goes, “No. Okay. Now, let’s take it to this step or this step or this step. So it’s a very different experience, that’s all I’m saying. When you’re working and working with it very specifically and experiencing the same thing the person is experiencing.

Photo by Ehimetalor Unuabona on Unsplash


[45:57] Ashley James: It’s kind of frustrating, many of us can’t talk directly to our guides like you can. It’s kind of like, “What’s the point of having guides if we can’t talk to them?” Like, how do they guide us if we can’t talk to them?



[46:11] Eric Thorton: Well, the interesting thing is, is my guides don’t guide me. They’ll tell me, “Okay. Eric, you’re in danger” or something like that. Which is a great tool. There’s no question about that.



[46:26] Ashley James: Because of life. 



[46:27] Eric Thorton: But with my problems, my personal problems, my human problems, they don’t give me the answers. Because it’s the journey that you find the answers. If they give me the answers, it’s just like going through to the dictionary to learn how to pronounce a word. You try it three weeks later and you can’t pronounce it again. Because you’ve just been given the answer. There’s no wisdom with it to hold it in your brain. So that’s what most people want, they want to talk to their guide so they can go, “Well, can you take care of this knee pain for me.” And they go, “Oh, sure.” Bam. And it’s done. Well, what was the purpose of the knee pain them? So they’ve just eliminated the purpose of your knee pain, which was growth. So guides don’t do that. Things that aren’t guides will, but the guides will not do that.



[47:14] Ashley James: What do you mean by things that aren’t guides?



[47:16] Eric Thorton: Predatory energy. They will give you answers to things. Like I had a client that said they went to this local guru. And they met each other at this meeting. And he said, “You and you have to get married.” And they went and did it. Because this guru was popular. Oh, it was a marriage made in hell. And they didn’t – they just learned how to be miserable. And I was like, “That was not a guide. A guide will not tell people to get married.”



[47:55] Ashley James: Right. Because that eliminates total free will of the soul.



[48:00] Eric Thorton: Free will of the soul. And it causes karma. It causes sin. I mean they had a whole bunch – a whole slew of bad experiences. And I look at bad experiences as good because if you can turn them into something good. Well, I guess it did. It taught them that everybody out there who says they’re a spiritual person, they’re spiritual but who are they connected to? There’s no discernment out there in the new age. And that was ego. And that’s one of the ways you tell is, if they’re making ego based statements when you’re in therapy in doing that.



[48:39] Ashley James: I imagine most healers or therapists kind of are coming from ego.



[48:46] Eric Thorton: They are. Well, that’s – even I have to go through my ego to do that. So it’s a tough statement to make. But something that is trying to control is an ego versus something that is not trying to control is presenting.



[49:09] Ashley James: So presenting information versus trying to control your decisions around it.



[49:13] Eric Thorton: Correct. Taking away just providing miracle after miracle after miracle after miracle. That is pleasant for the human homeostasis. But it’s not good for the soul’s progression. Because you’re taking away the wisdom or the purpose of the pain or suffering. Instead of using it and growing from it. So then the pain and suffering becomes irrelevant. And your body gets rid of it. And it’s done. And it takes a little more time but it’s the level that the healing took place is permanent at that point. Because nothing’s coming back. So like if you go to someone who’s healing with predatory energy, they’ll make the statement, like we talked about earlier, “Well, if you don’t heal it, you’re at fault.” That’s an ego statement. And you’re blaming someone and you’re making them feel inadequate.



[50:18] Ashley James: This was a healer that was –



[50:20] Eric Thorton: That I worked with.



[50:21] Ashley James: That you worked with that was saying that if their clients didn’t heal, it was their fault.



[50:27] Eric Thorton: It was their fault. And you run into a lot of that in new age. It’s, “Well, you just weren’t ready for it.” That’s a real common statement. You’re not ready yet. And it’s like, “Well, that’s a cop out.” You’re not ready yet? Well, we look at that as, “Well, why not? What’s blocking it? What do we have to learn first?” If we use the term, “So that they can be ready to fix that.” And that’s where we’re very different, is people will come in with these desires and we find a way to – I’m lead a way to get to them eventually. Sometimes it’s time to deal within exactly that versus you have to come around the other way and do the homework to get to the actual thing that originally they came in for. And so it takes effort.



[51:27] Ashley James: So everyone’s ready.



[51:29] Eric Thorton: Everybody’s ready.



[51:31] Ashley James: Everyone’s ready, it’s just –



[51:32] Eric Thorton: It’s just finding the pathway.



[51:32] Ashley James: Yeah. Exactly. What do you got to work on – first, it’s kind of like when a sweater becomes that big ball of yarn not like, you know, whatever. I have this big image in my mind of like this impossible, not of yarn. Like, anytime we’ve tried to make a sweater and then the cat got into it or something. And it’s just this impossible giant. It’s like, what string do we pull to unravel this mess?



[51:58] Eric Thorton: What’s the right one? There’s a word for it, I’m forgetting what it is. But just being able to uncover that key point. And that takes effort to get there. And then once you get there, the healing that takes place is permanent. And if you can’t get there, it’s not going to happen. Whereas someone with predatory energy might go, “Hit the key point, impress the person, how did you know that?” And then they feel better, they get a placebo effect. And then it comes back. And that’s when the new age will often go, “Oh, you weren’t ready yet. It’s not me. It’s you, basically.” And the [inaudible 00:52:45].



[52:45] Ashley James: Which is installing guilt and shame.



[52:48] Eric Thorton: Guilt and shame and the theory of original sin, that we’re not good enough. And to me, I mentioned earlier, I heard someone say one day that, healers create karma so you don’t want to go to a healer.



[53:06] Ashley James: Don’t go to a healer because it creates karma for you to go to a healer? 



[53:10] Eric Thorton: Right. And I’m like, well, I suppose if you got some new age point of view and you could cause healer for the karma – karma for the healer or the individual, either way. If you’re making statements that make a person feel bad or inadequate.



[53:30] Ashley James: The healer is putting their garbage or emotional – their emotional baggage on to the client. And the client walks away holding on to negative beliefs about themselves that the healer either installed or reinforced. Then that is creating karma. And for listeners who haven’t heard Eric in past episodes, Eric has gone deep into what is karma, how to work through it, what’s it purpose. And so it’s not necessarily the new age version or definition of what you think karma is. It’s actually – it’s quite different. It’s quite interesting. I definitely recommend listeners to go to learntruehealth.com and search Eric Thornton in the search bar and listen to our past episodes together. Because we’ve gone into –



[54:18] Eric Thorton: They kind of build on each other.



[54:19] Ashley James: Yeah, they do. They do build – each talk has built on the next one.



[54:22] Eric Thorton: Right. So we’re assuming each time that you’ve listened to the other episodes. Even we were talking about psilocybin therapy. Well, if it’s done right, it really helps. If it’s done wrong or not complete – I guess wrong is not the right word. Just not a complete – you don’t have someone who can really dig in there and see what’s going on –



[54:51] Ashley James: So if you’re just doing it on your own, you order it from Canada and you start microdosing yourself.



[54:55] Eric Thorton: Right. You start microdosing yourself and you get all these effects and then they do away Then you’ve just proved yourself that psilocybin doesn’t work. Because you didn’t do something. That’s why I recommend the therapy.


[55:09] Ashley James: Right. It’s like saying a key to a host doesn’t work because just having the key in your pocket doesn’t open the door for you and let you inside magically. So it’s opening the neuroplasticity but then you actually have to go in and do the work.



[55:24] Eric Thorton: Do the work. Find the wisdom. Find what it is that happened. It can be from past life. It can be – we’ve literally done repairs at past life that are depths that are phenomenal. How that past life affects the current life. And we couldn’t get out of it before. And we go, it’s just because that person’s psyche is set up that way. It’s not a right or wrong thing. It’s just it’s set up that way. So we couldn’t get in there and now we could. And that being kind and gentle and bringing that up, finessing, listening for the wisdom, listening for the who, what, when, where and why. And so the person can absorb it, experience it, identify the habits. Part of neuroplasticity is identifying those habits and going, “Oh, I’m not there anymore.” Giving them an opportunity to bring in another facet of their personality that they just discovered.

So you’re replacing – which is what we’re doing. It’s like if someone has a habit in neuroplasticity, like we talked about, they do things a certain way because they’ve done it that way for 10,000 times. Well, we can identify that. We can look at it. You can look at the benefits, the non-benefits, et cetera. You can see it. You can roll it around. You can play with it. But until you get in there and actually look at why the habit formed in the beginning.

Image Source:  thebestbrainpossible.com | Two Primary Ways To Drive Brain Neuroplasticity


[57:01] Ashley James: What is it replacing? Or what is compensating for?



[57:05] Eric Thorton: What it’s compensating for. Specifically what it’s compensating for so you can recognize it inside of you, where are you finding it in your body. Recognize, we actually give you the words. And we go – we’ve done a little bit with you dusty. It’s like we’ve given you a new place to go with the issue you have so that you can go, “Oh, there’s the old issue. And this is the new habit.” So it’s the same type of thing. You have to dig back to find the old issue. Then you have to find what the guide say would replace it. And then you identify it and then you are in free will. Changing your free will of the body, the consciousness, and the soul.



[57:54] Ashley James: Can you give us an example of someone you’ve worked with that before they had the psilocybin and then something specific they’re working on. Then after the psilocybin. Can you think of a client? Obviously, don’t share their name. But think of something like they were able to resolve those habits.



[58:15] Eric Thorton: I had one client that had an issue came up and they called it gluttony. And I’ve had that for several people. And it’s ,like, we saw where it came from, where the habit started. And what specifically triggers that emotional response in that person’s brain. Now, we’ve gone back prior to that experience with them and with that. And we’re able to look at it and see it. But we’re not able to go there. So we’ve been –



[58:53] Ashley James: What do you mean by not able to go there?



[58:53] Eric Thorton: Well, we didn’t get down to the very, very specific incident combined with this person, combined with a series of instances from past life. When they starved to death in a past life. Another one they were with a – I’m trying to remember here – with an extremely controlling situation where they were rationed food. And then in this life when they were an infant, they were left to be a little more hungry. And so when they were an infant, it triggered the past lives. Not even – they consciously remember it. It triggered the past lives and it formed this subconscious energy which they called gluttony. Because of the reaction to hunger from past lives in this life. Well, prior to that, we could see that mom wasn’t really consistent with feeding the baby. And I could see that something from past life was there. But the guides – as I could see the distance. But the guides will say, “No. We’re not there yet.”



[1:00:18] Ashley James: And then after doing the microdosing psilocybin that person was ready to go there?



[1:00:28] Eric Thorton: And that person went there on their own and saw that experience. And then before they could go, “Yeah. My mom’s ADD and blah, blah, blah.” But they actually went there and they experienced it.  And it opened that porthole up. So when we came here, we saw the experience again. And then the connection to it and what tripped it for this major thing that happened when they were an infant, what tripped it. And that was the past life experience. And it brought forward frequency that allowed predatory energy into it. And that’s when it majorly took on a role in that person’s life. And they couldn’t control their eating.



[1:01:09] Ashley James: So how long ago did you work with this person, weeks or months ago?



[1:01:15] Eric Thorton: That was four months ago.



[1:01:16]  Ashley James: And so you were able to go there with them, heal that release the predatory energy.



[01:01:22] Eric Thorton: And they’re slowly losing weight.



[1:01:25] Ashley James: And do they feel now in control around food? Or has it shifted overnight? Or is it a process?



[1:01:32] Eric Thorton: It shifted overnight in that they felt – their report to me was that they felt even though they were still eating, it was more of a choice now. It’s the choice started naturally coming in. And they didn’t fear hunger. And they realized it just started coming to them, a lot of hunger is because we’re dehydrated. And they just started naturally drinking water. It was a natural healing. And it just slowly started. I mean, they’re still working it. But it’s slowly started, the body looking at food and nutrients from a different perspective. Instead of panic about it, it’s like, “Oh, well, let’s look at that.”



[1:02:14] Ashley James: And maybe I could drink a glass of water. Or before it was –



[1:02:18] Eric Thorton: But they just go for the glass of water. They sit with it. They said, “Oh, that’s the glutton.” And now this is a healthy person. So they sit with it. And then the right thing comes to them. And it’s slowly – because they’re not affirming the old neural pathways. They’re now going, “Okay. There’s the neural pathway that was set in, that’s the glutton.” Versus now the neural pathway is, “Okay. Well, we’re not a glutton anymore so we got time.” And then they just go and get a glass of water. They don’t have to think, “Okay. I got to go get a glass of water.” They just go and get a glass of water. Or they’ll push the food away. And they put smaller servings on their plate. And that’s a natural healing.

If you’re fighting it all the time, then you’re not healed. So that’s the amazing thing. It’s just a slow shift in their perspective of food. Because they don’t have to keep reaffirming the pattern that was set when they were an infant. They could look at it and go, “That’s not me. That came from a combination of past life and this life from circumstances that are beyond my control for this body. And now, I can relax about it. And go, ‘Okay. So what’s up?'” And they slowly just make different choices. And they’ve lost – I think they’re probably up to seven or eight pounds now with no effort at all. Well, that’s a completely flip of the situation. So they’re now looking at – and they literally said they can push away.” Oh, I’ve had enough of that.”



[1:03:56] Ashley James: Well, the first time I worked with you, I mean, it was major. I think we did ,like, 12 different things. It was pretty big. But you removed three pretty intense predatory energies that I had since I was nine and it was blatant for me. It was clearly blatant. I’ve talked about it in past episodes. But what I noticed more lately, I’m really getting that I can only eat half as much as I used to. Like, I push the plate away or I’m not going for seconds or I’m taking a smaller portion. There’s a restaurant I really liked because you can be whole food plant based at this restaurant. And it’s a Mongolian grill, no oil, you can say no oil. And I go and I just get an entire bowl of vegetables and then choose if I want the garlic water on it or something. And they have brown rice. And in the past, I was able to eat three bowls and be like, “Okay. Now I’m full.” Now I can barely finish. It’s like, one and I’m full. I’m like, “Damn. I mean, this is an all you can eat place and I’m -“



[1:05:05] Eric Thorton: I got to get more. I got to get my money’s worth.



[1:05:05] Ashley James: I got to get more. I paid for it. Right. I got to get my money’s worth. But I eat one bowl and I’m like, “Whoa. Okay. I’m done.” That was great. One bowl of vegetables and a little bit of brown rice and I am done. And so I sat there, I was like, “What has changed?” What has changed? And the only thing that working with you and removing those predatory energies. And it’s just amazing that –



[1:05:28] Eric Thorton: Well, it was the predatory energies that kept you in fear going for more or thinking that way to set off your natural regulator. And it’s like yours didn’t require the mushroom therapy to get there. Which I’ve worked with a lot of people and it doesn’t require that. Just that one person that did. But it’s like, “Okay. That’s a natural healing.” It just starts and that will be with you for the rest of your life. And if you make a choice to eat a lot more again, that’s still your choice. And in the end, you can undo – you not undo. You can create a new neural pathway if you want.



[1:06:01] Ashley James: I can choose. 



[1:06:02] Eric Thorton: You can choose.



[1:06:03] Ashley James: But if when we have predatory energies, it’s like —



[1:06:05] Eric Thorton: You can’t choose.



[1:06:07] Ashley James: Yeah. Our choice is being hijacked.



[1:06:09]  Eric Thorton: You’re being compelled, I call it.



[1:06:11] Ashley James: Right. Yeah.



[1:06:12] Eric Thorton: It’s like, “No, no. You need that. Oh, gosh.” You just got to.



[1:06:16] Ashley James: And I think it’s funny and I mentioned it in past episodes. But I really knew I had a predatory energy when a voice in my head said, “Go eat McDonald’s.” I’m like, “I eat whole food based. I have eaten McDonald’s in nine years or ten years.” And it was like, “Chicken nuggets.” I’m like, “This is not me.” When there’s a voice in your head that doesn’t align with your personality and it doesn’t align with your choices then you know.



[1:06:45] Eric Thorton: And you have something else.



[1:06:46] Ashley James: But it could mask itself for many years. And I thought it was just me. I thought it was a part of me for many years until I changed so much consciously. And that part didn’t change. And that the predatory energy didn’t change. But I changed so much. So I went, “Wow, that’s really not me anymore.” And so why is this part of me still holding on to past me?



[1:07:11] Eric Thorton: Right. And you probably done a lot of therapy around it and nothing got there. But once we removed the predatory energy, then all that therapy you’d already done clicks in. Because it’s still there in your subconscious mind. And all that therapy did help also make it so you could look at that and not take three bowls. It wasn’t just removing. It was the other therapy you’ve done as well. And so that’s, again, why we call this work inclusive. Is because everything you’ve done prior to that moment, to work, to gain wisdom for the thing that is bothering you. That’s all wisdom you got from all the other therapy. If it’s just this roadblock and we remove the roadblock, and it flows.

So for someone with years in the situation similar that hadn’t done any work at all, they might have had to, we go in, we’d remove the predatory energy, they’d feel the difference. Then their eating habits would come back. And as they come in again and we take the next step and we start doing the therapy that you’d already done.  We start walking through them. What is this? What is this aspect of your personality? What is this thing that’s compelling you? I see you had stress here and you ate here? What did it do? Where do you feel that in your body? Get the person back in touch with their body and get in their body’s wisdom. Whether maybe the therapy that you had done had gotten you to realize the body’s wisdom. Got all that stuff in place. It just could take effect. So that — sometimes we have to teach the body new wisdom because they haven’t got the therapy somewhere else.



[1:09:05] Ashley James: How many of your clients have done psilocybin or other forms of microdosing? Would you say it’s like a really strong percentage of your clients?



[1:09:18] Eric Thorton: No. They’re very small. The microdosing is a fairly new concept with it. I’ve worked with hundreds of clients who’ve done macrodosing.



[1:09:28] Ashley James: Does the microdosing help at all?  Or like you said, it’s because of the intention. Their intention was to have fun, party, get high. The intention doesn’t – but the substance, the psilocybin was still there. So does that, on some level, help with neuroplasticity? Or it does only help when its microdosed or only helps when it’s microdose and there’s [inaudible 01:09:48]?



[1:09:48] Eric Thorton: You don’t have the deep breakthroughs where you can actually change overnight major personality conflicts. And sometimes with microdose – and you can also pick up the predatory energy from people when you’re in that type of state. I won’t even meditate in groups. And that’s conscious meditation. You’re going there and you’re just blowing your psyche open, your soul open.



[1:10:20] Ashley James: What about yoga? What about doing yoga and a class?



[1:10:23] Eric Thorton: Yoga is a different intention. But some yoga people do try to get meditation in with it. And you can all share energy really easy. You’re comrades in arms. Any group does that. And I just mentioned comrades. The army does it. It’s one big intention. To create strength with their intention.



[1:10:42] Ashley James: Churches.



[1:10:42] Eric Thorton: Churches do that.



[1:10:43]  Ashley James: Yeah. The churches I’ve gone to, they do a lot of like silent meditation and prayer together.



[1:10:49] Eric Thorton: In Christianity, what is the cross? And it’s literally, you know, I’ve got that thing hanging on the wall here which nobody can see. It’s a vortex. The sign of the cross is a vortex. And the Catholic Church knows that. And they even create – at Easter time, they even put the symbol around the center of the cross. The square that’s turned sideways with fabric making even a stronger vortex, which is that’s a whole another subject. Sorry. We’ll have to explore that someday.



[1:11:24] Ashley James: You can see the gears turning in my head like a million questions.



[1:11:28] Eric Thorton: Yeah. It’s like, “Okay.” But what you are doing is you are blowing open this consciousness and the subconsciousness with the psilocybin uncontrolled macrodosing. And putting the person very vulnerable to the other people around them. There are things – even in my past life when I did this, it was one-on-one. We didn’t do it in groups. IT was one on one.



[1:11:54] Ashley James: Right. And just remembering the iowaska interview I just did, most of the time they’re doing ayahuasca in groups. And they’re all having really big experiences.



[1:12:07] Eric Thorton: They’re having big experiences.



[1:12:07] Ashley James: The unconscious mind is blown wide open.



[1:12:09] Eric Thorton: It is. And it’s – I don’t want to rank on the industry as far as people do get benefits from it. But what is – I experienced that there’s a lot more that we could get out – we could wring out of those experiences in the work we do here. And I see that people will take on very predatory energies. I had one young lady and she went with a friend to be safe and they were both raped when they were under the influence. And they don’t remember it but they have PTSD from it. And it’s like, what are you supposed to do with that? It’s become an industry down there.



[1:13:05] Ashley James: Right. Teresa said that when you go to the airport in Peru or Brazil, other places, a restaurant in the Amazon that there are “shamans” standing there at the airport holding a sign. And people will fly down and then hire the shaman right there in the airport. And that she said that they’ll put additional things – additional herbs –



[1:13:30] Eric Thorton: Lots of different herbs in it.



[1:13:31] Ashley James: – just to get the person high not to have the healing experience.



[1:13:35] Eric Thorton: Right. And if they want to take advantage of them and rape them, they can put a certain herb in there and they don’t remember anything. And that’s the risk. There is no regulation down there. It’s my understanding the government has caused this. The governments have caused it indirectly because they’re requiring these tribes to put in septic systems, put in water systems, and they all cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Instead of being nomadic, they have to not be nomadic in the Amazon forest. And they have to create sanitary conditions and they don’t have cash. So they’ve had to do this to create a cash flow. And that was where it originally started. Where they started taking it away from the masters.

I’m not going to call them shaman. You can be a shaman. Not be a master. But the words are cheap. People can throw those words around anywhere. But not the authentic masters that were born with the gifts on that didn’t have to learn anything from another shaman. That’s someone born. They get it. Period. And there’s very few of those around the world. And so there’s two masters that did this but they had to come up with cash. So then they started teaching facilitators and calling them shaman.

Photo by Aarón Blanco Tejedor on Unsplash


[1:15:00] Ashley James: Do you think – and this is getting into a conspiracy theory. But do you think that the countries in the area did it on purpose to disempower the true healings because there’s no government that actually wants their citizens to be awake and to be empowered. Those governments are afraid of their citizens so they want to keep them fighting among themselves.



[1:15:29] Eric Thorton: Subdued. Right. And subdued somehow. Distracted.



[1:15:29] Ashley James: Did they do that on purpose to stop people from becoming empowered? Or was it just coincidental that that was the result?



[1:15:40] Eric Thorton: Well, I look at a lot of things with conspiracy theory. And look at it and go, “Well -” it was Dr. Lim that I was talking to. And he said, “Well, it’s like with the American Medical Association. There’s no one person doing anything that isn’t good intention. But their perspectives, their ideas with as good intention to help their clients gets them looked at. And then someone else modifies it again with good intention. And then someone else modifies that with good intention. And then someone else modifies that with good intention. And pretty soon you get a thing that comes up as evil.



[1:16:29] Ashley James: Well, I would say like –



[1:16:30] Eric Thorton: Where it isn’t one person that’s doing it.



[1:16:32] Ashley James: Well, but there’s an organization, let’s say the pharmaceutical industry has an intention. And they say “Okay. Lobbyists go. Lobby for this.”



[1:16:41] Eric Thorton: But that’s a corporate intention. 



[1:16:42] Ashley James: Right. But they affect the AMA all the time.



[1:16:45] Eric Thorton: They do. But the AMA still has to – they’re doing it because they want to raise money. Because a corporation is for profit. So they’re going there with the idea, “Okay. Let’s do the opioid thing.” Well, as far as the sales people are taught, “Well, this is good for everybody.”



[1:17:07] Ashley James: Oh, so you’re saying it’s compartmentalized.



[1:17:09] Eric Thorton: It’s compartmentalize. It’s not one person which creates this whole thing – conspiracy – that is to be looked at as evil. This is what people look at the United States for. It’s a corporate system. The corporates are for profit. Anything they can do to make money. There’s no consciousness with that. Bu to sum total, we talked about corporate consciousness. There is in the end, a corporate consciousness. We call them thought forms.

When everybody as their thoughts to them, it creates something. It could be looked at as evil or can draw a predatory energy to that consciousness. And then it becomes a thing. And then it would be called an evil at that point. Because it drew predatory energy into controlling the populations. And it works out real well for the government. And the governments can start to create it. But the sales people, the people delivering it to the people, they don’t have bad intentions.



[1:18:18] Ashley James: The individuals in the pharmaceutical industry are not bad people. Yeah, I’ve met the ex-sales people. They’ve got a spouse and family and kids and their moms and dads and they’re not evil. But then they turned around one day and realized that what they were selling was harming people. And then they either chose –



[1:18:39] Eric Thorton: When they become aware of it, they change.



[1:18:42] Ashley James: And they either chose to stay or leave.



[1:18:44] Eric Thorton: Right. Right. If they stayed, then it would be conspiracy. But they chose to leave because they realized it wasn’t. So that happens in this too. That’s why I mentioned the government required these certain things for their benefit. They needed sanitation. They needed water. Well, that wasn’t a bad person coming up with that. Because they couldn’t be nomadic anymore because they were using the rainforest for palm oil. Sorry. And so it’s not one person but it works for the government in the end.



[1:19:23] Ashley James: Right. Well, I mean if they had designed it in a way that what is more affordable than – right. So just looking at, because I think there’s a correlation between what’s happening in Central and South America with iowaska and what’s going to happen in the United States with microdosing psilocybin mushrooms. And I see this correlation. Because, you know, history will repeat itself.



[1:19:46] Eric Thorton: Oh, definitely.



[1:19:47] Ashley James: Governments like to duplicate what happens? And so we’re looking at –



[1:19:49] Eric Thorton: Correct. So does the medical industry.



[1:19:53] Ashley James: So countries look at each other and go, what worked? What didn’t work? Let’s repeat that. We want to have legal access to microdosing psilocybin mushroom like many people now have access to clean CBD or THC should they want that. And so what we want –



[1:20:20] Eric Thorton: You can go with THC. You can go to a facility that’s monitored. And you know, it’s not going to be laced with something else. So it’s much safer and better for sleep or anxiety and the other. But it’s not mixed with something else to get you hooked on it. And so it’s just the product. So in that case, it’s a good thing.



[1:20:42] Ashley James: Now, does pot – does marijuana have microdosing? Could it have the same neuroplasticity effects? Or is it just two different of a plant?



[1:20:54] Eric Thorton: Well, it’s different effects. So you’re comparing apples and grapes.



[1:20:59] Ashley James: And motorcars.



[1:21:00] Eric Thorton: Yeah. They’re just different. So there are benefits, obviously, to THC and CBD and the different types of CBDs and other things.



[1:21:13] Ashley James: Cannabinoids.



[01:21:14] Eric Thorton: Cannabinoids and the — I forgot –



[1:21:16] Ashley James: Terpenes.



[1:21:20] Eric Thorton: Terpenes. Terpenes. Yeah. And they’re just discovering it in our country. They discovered it in other countries. But we have to rediscover everything in our country. But by allowing that in, then we start getting the benefits of it. And, of course, the corporations don’t like that. So they want to take the active ingredients and either duplicate them or refine them and then patent that. Well, that’s a corporation. That’s not an evil. That’s a corporation that –



[1:21:54] Ashley James: Wants to make money.



[1:21:54]  Eric Thorton: — that is designed to make profit and give money to their people who buy their stock. That’s not evil. But you get 50 corporations building on it. And pretty soon you’ve got something that’s not THC anymore or not cannabinoids anymore. And you’re creating something else.



[1:22:12] Ashley James: And then they lobby for certain laws. And then you know, if they’re – that’s the problem, we need corporations that want win-win situations and good for all. But we’ve talked about that before. I’d like to know, maybe you could ask the guides, are there other substances or other techniques that people could use to increase neuroplasticity likes psilocybin?



[1:22:39] Eric Thorton: Well, I mean, we’ve already talked about the LSD. We talked about iowaska.



[1:22:44] Ashley James: Right. But I mean, like a household – you know, some things that are legal or techniques.



[1:22:52] Eric Thorton: The guides are good. And I understand this. They’re going careful because there are. But psilocybin is a poison. And in too much, it causes the wrong type. And the same with iowaska and things like that. They are little poisons. And if you get the wrong ones, even the wrong mushrooms with psilocybin, will kill you.



[1:23:18] Ashley James: Are there – so I’ll reach out. I’ll change my question. Are their natural and not poisonous supplements out there that can have the same or similar effects as psilocybin?



[1:23:35] Eric Thorton: Cheese.



[1:23:36] Ashley James: Cheese?



[1:23:37] Eric Thorton: Yeah.



[1:23:39] Ashley James: That’s funny.



[1:23:41] Eric Thorton: Yeah. Cheese, fat. We get addicted to fat and it gives us an experience that’s not us. It calms us. It makes us feel like we’re coming out of euphoria. It changes who you are. It changes your body. And it’s an addiction. Now, I don’t know if you can microdose cheese and get a benefit from it. But we get addicted to foods the same way. Meat causes the same addiction. So does sugar. And these are stronger reactions. What it does is, it causes your body, the bacteria in your intestine to send a signal to your brain to tell you to get more of that. And it slowly changes your neuroplasticity of your brain. It’s a slower product. But it is doing it. And so if you took that – the guys are agreeing with that – and you could slowly – if you gave a person piece of cheese and give them at that right moment, you could technically implant a new idea.



[1:25:01] Ashley James: That’s funny.



[1:25:02] Eric Thorton: That’s funny. And it is. And I’ve never been asked that question before. Never. And they’re just showing me what food does. They literally show me, everyday stuff that you eat and how it creates these and creates the direction your neuroplasticity is going. Once you get addicted to cheese, cow’s milk, the fats, it has changed your whole life. And not necessarily in a good direction.



[1:25:36] Ashley James: I did an episode on cheese. I really recommend listeners to learntruehealth.com and search. In the search bar, search cheese. Listen to that episode. It is so good. And it’s a short one. But it’s very impactful. Lots of great information. When I say short, I mean like 45 minutes is short to me. But it’s a really good episode because – I want to say it was Dr. Bernard.



[1:26:04] Eric Thorton: So you actually interviewed somebody about –



[1:26:05] Ashley James: About cheese. It was Dr. Bernard. A really great guy in the whole food plant based world. He looks like 40. If you look at his pictures, you’re like that is a handsome doctor. He’s, like, in his 70s and he looks 40.



[1:26:18] Eric Thorton: That’s phenomenal.



[1:26:17] Ashley James: Yeah. And he’s whole food plant based, you know, vegan. And he wrote a whole book on cheese. And it’s great because when – I mean, I know I’m lactose intolerant. I’m totally allergic to milk and I know I shouldn’t eat it. But back when I did eat cheese, Duffy and I would sit and we go to Costco and get a brick of Tillamook and we just sit there and watch TV on like a Sunday afternoon and –



[1:26:44] Eric Thorton: Get high on cheese.



[1:26:46] Ashley James: We would literally get high on cheese. The two of us, we polish off a brick of Tillamook in a weekend. And we’d sit there and we slice off little thin slices at a time. Just like micro dosing one bite at a time. A whole brick of cheese, oh, man. That Tillamook. But it does. It totally affects the brains. So the whole interview was about how cheese – because concentrated addiction. It’s those chemicals that affect the brain.

So Dr. Joel Fuhrman said something really funny. Because I’ve been studying diets. And I think many listeners would agree with me that when you start feeling really good on a diet, you think it’s the right diet for you. We’re basing it on our symptoms. So if we start feeling good like, “Oh, wow. I feel really good after that meal. This must be the right way to eat.” So people don’t go ketogenic. Man, after that the three eggs and bacon, I feel so – or whatever –



[1:27:49] Eric Thorton: Right. The fat.



[1:27:50] Ashley James: After that butter on my steak or after that Tillamook cheese, I feel so good. Or after that keto shake, I feel – people will say, I feel really good on fat or on cheese. And Dr. Joel Fuhrman, who I’ve also interviewed, said –



[1:28:06] Eric Thorton: That’s why the keto diet is so popular.



[1:28:08] Ashley James: Right. Because the people feel really – people feel really good. But he says, “Listen. If you judge a diet based on how you feel, cocaine will make you feel amazing. It doesn’t mean it’s good for you.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” My entire world exploded – imploded at that point. Because I thought, I’ve been judging diets based on how I feel. And it’s actually based on – it had to be based on, obviously, the science and what’s going on in the brain and what’s going on hormonally, and what’s going on in the gut. And we have to look at that.



[1:28:48] Eric Thorton: If you did mushrooms everyday, psilocybin, it would do the same thing that cheese does. Because you lose the ability for the hallucinations with psilocybin. And all you get is a little bit of euphoric feeling from it, which is what cheese does. And at that moment, when you guys were doing those bricks of Tillamook, if you were listening to commercial, they’re brainwashing you.



[1:29:15] Ashley James: Very interesting. So when we eat foods like cheese or highly processed hyper –



[1:29:21] Eric Thorton: Anything that’s in the book, the Pleasure Trap.



[1:29:24] Ashley James: The Pleasure Trap is a great book. And I recommend getting the audio version of the Pleasure Trap because Chef AJ is the narrator. And I love her. She’s great. I also interviewed her. That’s a good episode as well. Because she shares how she healed her colon cancer with the whole food plant based diet. But also that she healed her food addiction with it as well. So that’s a really good interview. Very interesting. I love how this conversation led to this because we are dosing ourselves daily with foods that are causing our brains to be more susceptible to receiving subconscious messages from marketing.



[1:30:13] Eric Thorton: What is yesterday? What was yesterday? That’s a cheeseburger day?



[1:30:18] Ashley James: No.



[1:30:18] Eric Thorton: Yes. And what do they show? The thing you’re addicted to in a cheeseburger the most is the cheese. Second is the meat. So they’re showing the cheese dripping all over, blah, blah, blah. And it goes back to the feeling that you and Duffy had when you were eating the Tillamook. Just the implant from looking at that, associate it with that, and it goes into, and then you are brainwashed to go get a hamburger, and to have the meat, and to have the blah, blah, blah.



[1:30:51] Ashley James: So I just watched – my husband and I just went to a documentary. They had this one global event where they released this documentary called The Game Changers.



[1:31:01] Eric Thorton: I saw that.



[1:31:01] Ashley James: Did you go see it?



[1:31:02] Eric Thorton: Thursday.



[1:31:03] Ashley James: No. Monday.



[1:31:04] Eric Thorton: No. Monday. Were you there?



[1:31:05] Ashley James: Did you see it? We went to Northgate.



[1:31:07] Eric Thorton: We were at Redmond. Yeah. Phenomenal.



[1:31:08] Ashley James: Yeah. Wasn’t it amazing? It was so good.



[1:31:12] Eric Thorton: I mean, I like it better than Forks Over Knives.



[1:31:13] Ashley James: It was the best.



[1:31:13] Eric Thorton: Because it’s not convicting or micromanaging. It was just presenting.



[1:31:19] Ashley James: It was just presenting great information. 



[1:31:20] Eric Thorton: Great information.



[1:31:21] Ashley James: My husband I want to – I’m talking about him like a third person like he’s not sitting right beside me. Because he doesn’t have a microphone on. But we want to get it and get our family to watch it. I mean, it was great. We went with Naomi. Hi, Naomi. She’s one of the listeners. And it was outstanding. What I loved the most was seeing that this woman was a cyclist and she went on the whole food plant based diet. And she was getting better.

Photo by Sharon Pittaway on Unsplash


[1:31:53] Eric Thorton: Olympic cyclist.



[1:31:53] Ashley James: She’s an Olympic cyclist. But she was getting better and better times. And so they couldn’t kick her off the team even though she was the oldest person who had ever been on the Olympic cycling team, I think ever.



[1:32:05] Eric Thorton: Right. Ever.



[1:32:06] Ashley James: She goes, “Just my times kept getting better and better so they couldn’t kick me off. They had to invite me to the Olympics.”  And she was 39-and-a-half. The oldest of anyone in her class who had ever cycled in the Olympics. And she won – she brought home the gold at 39-and-a half. There was a heavyweight or weightlifter dude and he was 40, and he brought home the gold, I think. And she talked about that when you drink beet juice before you workout, it increases your endurance something like 33%.



[1:32:43] Eric Thorton: It’s a high dose. It’s a high thing. Beet juice creates the environment for the most nitrous oxide. And causing the endothelium to shrink more blood flow to your legs, to your muscles, more lubrication to your myofascial so you can run faster and jump higher for longer periods of time. Your oxygen is better because you’re getting more blood physically to the muscles you’re using. It’s phenomenal. And they show that. They show the scientific, the animation of it in that movie. And I’ve recommended to one person already. But the beet juice is the highest concentrate of what you need to do that. But close behind it are all the greens. And there’s so many fruits, vegetables of all sorts. And that’s why athletes are changing over.  How about the thing about what does gladiator me?



[1:33:44] Ashley James: Oh, that was hilarious.



[1:33:43] Eric Thorton: Barley and mushroom eaters.



[1:33:45] Ashley James: Yeah, yeah.



[1:33:46] Eric Thorton: Or barley something eater.



[1:33:47] Ashley James: It meant barley and green eaters – or no. Sorry. It was bean and green –



[1:33:54] Eric Thorton: Bean and barley. Bean and barley eaters.



[1:33:55] Ashley James: Bean and barley eaters. That was it. The word gladiator translated into – because the gladiators themselves who we think are –



[1:34:05] Eric Thorton: Meat eaters.



[1:34:05] Ashley James: We think they’re meat eaters because they’re these elite athletes from thousands of years ago were actually – were predominantly vegetarian.



[1:34:14] Eric Thorton: They could tell by the concentration of their bones.



[1:34:17] Ashley James: Yeah. So I found that the whole movie was fascinating. But how it relates to this discussion is, the neuroplasticity of the brain and our ability to heal. What I’ve seen over and over again is when people clean up their diet, and you can confirm –



[1:34:39] Eric Thorton: I totally confirm it.



[1:34:40] Ashley James: That when we clean up our diet, we remove the hyper palatable foods that are hijacking the brain and the gut. And the gut affects our brain because the gut produces our serotonin, our neurotransmitters. It also – and I just recently learned this because I’m taking a course through FDN. It’s an advanced course through Functional Diagnostic Nutrition for health coaches. And I learned that 25% of the body’s T3 is converted in the gut. So when we have this biosis, then you go to an MD and you say, “I’m really tired.” Well, you’re eating the standard American diet or the standard Canadian or standard Australian diet, whatever. You’re eating the standard marketed to us diet. Processed food –



[1:35:20] Eric Thorton: Corporate diets.



[1:35:22] Ashley James: Corporate diet. We’re eating the corporate diet, hyperpalatable foods of salt, sugar, and oil, and animal products, and flour. And we go to our MD because we’re tired. The MD says, “Oh, well, you know, you’re 40 and you’re tired. And you have a few pounds on. So it’s probably your thyroid that says you’re tired.” And then he sees your T3 is low and then he puts you on a synthetic T3. Meanwhile, your thyroid is fine. But it was your – I mean, it could just be, for example, your gut or your liver. Your liver plays a huge role in your in your thyroid hormones. But they don’t even look.



[1:35:57] Eric Thorton: They don’t. They don’t because they don’t want to undo their treatment system. The medical service system is where they make their money. I have to convince – one of the things that we do here is we look at the individual and what they specifically need. It all comes down to we all need to be whole food plant based. We’re talking about that. But some people can get away with some meat. But there’s nobody can get away with fat.



[1:36:26] Ashley James: The standard corporate diet.



[1:36:30] Eric Thorton: The standard corporate diet, nobody can. And they go, “Well, I’m not dying.” It’s hard to convince people that their thyroid will correct. Everything will correct if they give it the right fuel. And it’s the same, we’re talking about psilocybin therapy. It’s the same with your brain. You give it the right fuel and it’s going to change. It’s going to change the neuroplasticity. That’s why cheese affects that. That’s why food affects similarly to hallucinogens. When you asked that question the guy just came and just downloading. He looks like, “Oh my gosh.



[1:37:06] Ashley James: Right. It’s fascinating. That the brain – we can go out and we can get high off of legal food. But you’re saying that the drawback –



[1:37:16] Eric Thorton: You don’t get any higher doing microdosing of psilocybin than you do with eating Tillamook cheese. Literally, you don’t get any higher. I mean, Tillamook cheese actually gives you this euphoric feeling that’s amazing. Tillamook or any cheese. I’m not picking on Tillamook. Sorry.



[1:37:35] Ashley James: Oh, no. It’s delicious.



[1:37:37] Eric Thorton: It’s a delicious cheese.



[1:37:37] Ashley James: If you’re going to do cheese –



[1:37:40] Eric Thorton: You do Tillamook. 



[1:37:43] Ashley James: And we should start thinking about flour, sugar, oil, and animal products like street drugs. Are you doing eggs? Are you doing eggs and cheese? I mean, it’s like, are you doing meth? Right?



[1:37:59] Eric Thorton: That’s what I do. That’s what I do with my kids. So you’re still doing me. Okay.



[1:38:04] Ashley James: And not a point of judgment but a point of awakening and recognition that these foods affect the brain. And we can affect that brain –



[01:38:16] Eric Thorton: And that’s proven.



[1:38:16] Ashley James: – in a positive way or a negative way. It’s proven. But I’ve seen it so many times with my clients that when they clean up their diet, they’re able to do emotional healing work so much easier.  Because the inflammation is gone. The brain isn’t hyper-excited from these foods. The brain isn’t hijacked from these foods.



[1:38:39] Eric Thorton: Correct. Right. So I’ve noticed that with my clients that have taken the plunge and switched over to whole food plant based over the long term. We can get into very different spots. And one, the body is healing itself. And so we start taking the things that are preventing the body from healing itself. And we take away – and then they take away the food items that are preventing the body from healing itself or agitating the immune system. And all of a sudden their brain has time for other things. And their body has time for other things. And it’s the priority. You’re dying by eating the standard American diet, the standard corporate diets. And so your body has to put everything there, your consciousness there, your subconsciousness there to just stay alive. It’s amazing what the body will do too. Because it will keep you alive going even though you’re sickly for years and years and years and years. But your experience in life isn’t good. You’re just experiencing one negative situation to another with your health and your mental capacity. All of a sudden you clean up and the brain has time for spiritual growth.

And you were talking about conspiracy theory. And what the governments do and they want us unaware. When you’re sick or sickly, you are obsessed with that. You aren’t growing spiritually. So you take it and you become dogmatic. “Okay. I’m exhausted. How do I get to heaven? Okay. Do it this way.” And there you go. Or you say, because you’re tired, you’re exhausted, you don’t have anytime left to grow that way.



[1:40:19] Ashley James: And that and the food is what’s making us exhausted, the corporate foods.



[1:40:22] Eric Thorton: Right. And if you look at the corporate food structure, there is intent with it because the corporation’s want to sell you their products. But there’s also that enough intent to create the thought forms, which bring predatory energy to it. And then we pick it up. And then we’re being compelled. And the corporations love that part of it. Because they’re selling more products. And all they care about selling more products. And they don’t look at – again, corporations don’t have morals.



[1:40:56]  Ashley James: I think we should ask ourselves – and this is the homework I want to give listeners. Ask yourself for the next week every day at every meal, “Am I compelled to buy this food and eat this? Or can I say no to it? Could I choose a giant bowl of steamed vegetables and just eat that?” And then if you’re still hungry, eat something else. But if there’s something in you that’s compelled to drive to the drive through or compelled to go to the restaurant or compelled to buy the packaged food.



[1:41:26] Eric Thorton: Or compelled to not eat those vegetables. And not eat the fruit, not eat the potatoes that don’t have everything all over them.



[1:41:34] Ashley James: Just the baked potatoes.



[1:41:36] Eric Thorton: The baked potatoes.



[ 1:41:38] Ashley James: Or the brown rice or whatever. But if there’s something in you –



[1:41:41] Eric Thorton: That’s going yuck to something is healthy.



[1:41:41] Ashley James: – that’s resisting something healthy or that’s compelling you to eat something unhealthy.



[1:41:48] Eric Thorton: There’s something beyond you.



[1:41:51] Ashley James: It’s not you. 



[1:41:52] Eric Thorton: Yeah. Your body wants what’s healthy. I’ll give an example with my wife and I. Sometimes we want to go out. That’s a problem, right? We found the Mongolian grill, the ones that you’re talking about. The normal one doesn’t do it.



[1:42:06] Ashley James: It’s called Iron Grill. We call it an Iron Gut. They only have two locations here, one in Mill Creek one and one –



[1:42:11]  Eric Thorton: Right. It’s a privately owned one.



[1:42:13] Ashley James: One in Monroe. But all the other Mongolian girls are just oil and all this gross stuff.



[1:42:17] Eric Thorton: Oil over the place. They don’t even use oil at these two.



[1:42:17] Ashley James: They don’t even use oil. I love it.



[1:42:19] Eric Thorton: No oil at all. They don’t put it on their grill at all. So we want to go out. So we go to PCC, which is a local coop. And we’ll get salad again. And we sit down and we put our dressing up that we bring and we’re sitting there going, “Okay. A salad.” Take one bite and the body lights up. And you just want to eat that damn salad.



[1:42:46] Ashley James: Yeah. But the brain is going – 



[1:42:48] Eric Thorton: The corporate training –



[1:42:48] Ashley James: The corporate training is like, “No. Not salad again.”



[1:42:51] Eric Thorton: I don’t want salad.



[1:42:53] Ashley James: I don’t like vegetables. This isn’t fun.



[1:42:54] Eric Thorton: That didn’t work for a caveman that needed to eat the vegetables all the time because there was often no meat. And they had to eat it. And they weren’t picky.



[1:43:05] Ashley James: Right. Well, here.



[1:43:06] Eric Thorton: They just ate what was in front of them. But there wasn’t the thought forms from the corporations. So they just ate it because it was there. You don’t got a chimpanzee wanting the ripe banana. They want all the bananas. And because there’s nothing compelling them to become picky and have just the right. So then they don’t eat them. So it’s a buildup of energy that has created – has brought in evil to it. And we call them corporate thought forms. And those influence in every way they can and they use food to enter your brain, the same way psilocybin does. And I just am fascinated by that. Give a whole new world of healing. The guide – your question did. Thank you.



[1:43:58] Ashley James: Well, you’re welcome. But this is what I’ve been exploring on other episodes, it’s been building up to this. This understanding of how important food is to our brain.



[1:44:07] Eric Thorton: It’s huge. This, I know. It totally controls your brain, your mood, your hormones throughout your whole body.  And you can look at that – I mean that has become a conspiracy. That no one person did it. It’s a corporate lack of value system. I have thought in the past that because we’re all governed by the corporate laws of the world. And I have thought in the past that the corporate laws need to have a standard of morals that is required for all corporate law. And one of the morals is do no harm. Doctors have it. Now, they’ve bent out a bit. But they still have it. Corporate law doesn’t have that. And if corporate law, if it had just that one sentence added to corporate law, how much would be different?



[1:45:27] Ashley James: Huge. It would take a lot more precautions.



[1:45:31] Eric Thorton: Right. Do no harm. Instead of allowing – they have a law – you know, the laws in our country allow us not to sue the pharmaceuticals individually. So it’s okay for them to do harm. Because that’s the only way they can do “science.” And that’s not true. But they just took away the morals from pharmaceuticals.



[1:45:57] Ashley James: Right. This was a while ago, but I interviewed a woman who called herself a water [inaudible 01:46:04]. And she’s quite interesting but what she did professionally before she got into nutrition was she was a scientist for – I think it was Pringles or Doritos or one of those –



[1:46:23] Eric Thorton: Isn’t that sad. The scientists for a food company.



[1:46:26] Ashley James: Yeah. It was like a Nestle. It was one of those companies. And her and her team had to make some kind of Doritos be hyperpalatable. They had to always invent new – and I don’t know if it was actually Doritos. But it was some kind –



[1:46:45] Eric Thorton: Well, Doritos is very much there.



[1:46:47] Ashley James: And they had to figure out what they could do to just make this addictive. And I asked her some questions about that. About what the intention was behind it. Because she left – eventually left that career. Did she feel there was like an evil intention or intention to harm people? And she says not at all. She said the scientists on the team were scientists. And they were just looking at what could they do to make something really excite the brain. And it was cool. It was science. It was neuroscience. What could they do to put a chemical on the tongue and make the brain light up like cocaine? And that was fun for them. And they came up with all kinds of interesting chemicals and interesting fat and carbohydrate mixed with chemical ratios to make the brain light up ten times more than cocaine. So there wasn’t a, “Hahaha. We’re going to hurt people.” It was more just like they were given a task, they’re scientists. It was compartmentalize. And they had fun.



[1:47:52] Eric Thorton: [Inaudible 01:47:52] and compartmentalized.



[1:47:54] Ashley James: And they had fun doing it because that was their task as a scientist. And then of course, she saw the big picture and saw how much the food industry was harming people. And so her idea was to then focus on how to make foods delicious in a wholesome way.

But that that was her background. So I just thought that was really interesting that her experience wasn’t that she didn’t feel like the corporation was looking to harm people. It just wants to make money. But the problem is that they don’t have the values or the morals behind it to not want to do harm.



[1:48:34] Eric Thorton: Well, if the confirmation bias – they call that – it’s there just to look at the benefits of this. If they also were compelled to do no harm, they would have to look at the whole picture. And then they would discover what she discovered, and she could no longer be there. But instead, their confirmation bias, they’re looking for this. This boxed in thing and it’s framed in, this is all you’re looking for so don’t look for anything beyond that frame. Well, if the government said, “Okay. You have to look beyond that frame.”



[1:49:06] Ashley James: Here are your constraints as a business.



[1:49:09] Eric Thorton: Here it is. You have to do no harm to the human body. No harm. And that includes anyone who does research on it can say, “Okay. That disodium phosphate that they discovered and Lay’s discovered. Instead of monosodium glutamate, they put disodium phosphate in. And [inaudible 01:49:29] the chemical that does that.” Well, what does it do to your gut? What does it do to – and there’s other chemicals too. But what does it do to your brain? What does it – why is it doing that?

Image Source: foodrevolution.org | Why Healing Your Gut Is Essential For Good Health


[1:49:38] Ashley James: So what does disodium phosphate do to the body?



[1:49:40] Eric Thorton: It’s an addiction. And so they’ve eliminated monosodium glutamate because it got a bad name.



[1:49:47] Ashley James: Right. MSG is bad. But they just replaced it with something else.



[1:49:49] Eric Thorton: They replaced it with something else to drive you. And that hasn’t been investigated yet. Only the benefits of it have been investigated.



[1:49:59] Ashley James: It’s so funny because when I make home baked fries – so I don’t fry it with oil. I cut up a potato. I bake in the oven. I can put a little nutritional yeast or Bragg’s or something on it, you know, make it taste salty. And it’s a potato fry or air fry or that kind of thing. You eat one serving, you’re full, you’re done. But if you were to eat potato chips –



[1:50:28] Eric Thorton: You eat three times as much or five times as much.



[1:50:29] Ashley James: – you can’t stop because of the chemicals they put on it.



[1:50:33] Eric Thorton: And the combination of the chemicals. Exactly.



[1:50:36] Ashley James: And that’s hijacking the brain.



[1:50:38] Eric Thorton: It’s hijacking the brain.



[1:50:40] Ashley James: And bypassing the internal thermostat that says their full.



[1:50:43] Eric Thorton: Therefore they’re doing harm. So they couldn’t do that if that little law was there.



[1:50:50] Ashley James: Right. So we have to take it upon ourselves that law. We have to really recognize that corporations do not have that law. As individuals we do. Like, you can’t go and do harm to your neighbor. You’re in a world of hurt if you do. But a corporation can do harm to millions of people and get away with it. So we, as individuals, have to be informed consumers. Everything we put in our mouth, we have to be diligent just like you would with a supplement or the pharmaceutical. We have to choose to look at the side effects. Look at the studies. Look at where it came from. That’s why a whole food plant based diet is so easy because it’s like, “Here’s broccoli.”



[1:51:29] Eric Thorton: Yep. There it is.



[1:51:31] Ashley James: Three it is. It’s safe.



[1:51:32] Eric Thorton: And if you can get an organic, better.



[1:51:34] Ashley James: Even better.



[1:51:35] Eric Thorton: Even better. And broccoli, some people it’s not their favorite thing. But there’s ways of dealing with that broccoli that can make it absolutely be whole food plant based and be delicious. I just discovered something last night. I’m going to mention it on your blog here so other people can do it. I was cooking them. I cooked greens. They were Swiss chard. And I put in a pressure cooker for four minutes with some water and some garlic and some smoke. And the Swiss chard –



[1:52:10] Ashley James: When you say smoke –



[1:52:11] Eric Thorton: Liquid smoke.



[1:52:12] Ashley James: Liquid smoke, okay. Tiny bit because that stuff is strong.



[1:52:13] Eric Thorton: A tiny bit. It’s very strong. And so I just did that recipe up and I got done. It was a little bit bitter and I like bitter. But I thought, “You know, there’s combinations that can do – that the human body likes. And we like sweet-sour, sweet- bitter, sweet- smoky. We like sweet with different combinations” And I thought, “Hm. A little bit of apple juice on this would be amazing.” And oh my god –



[1:52:42] Ashley James: It was really good?



[1:52:43] Eric Thorton: It was amazing.



[1:52:44] Ashley James: Swiss chard is a little, too, like stringent for me. But if I did that recipe, I think I’d like it.



[1:52:50] Eric Thorton: I just put it on [inaudible 01:52:51] like you would vinegar on it or something. Abd [inaudible 01:52:55] apples. Well, let’s put apple juice on it. It was like, “Oh.”

And it’s made it worth eating. I mean, it was delicious.



[1:53:06] Ashley James: That’s awesome.



[1:53:08] Eric Thorton: I thought, “Oh. I must tell people that.” So I’m going to sneak it in on my kids and see how they deal with it.



[1:53:18] Ashley James: Nice. I love taking – I mean when I’m really busy, I add – lots of grocery stores do this now. You can get organic pre-shredded vegetables and they have pre-shredded broccoli. So it’s just totally shredded broccoli in a bag. And then I love mixing that with avocado.



[1:53:38] Eric Thorton: Oh, I have never done that.



[1:53:38] Ashley James: And then I just mix with my hands. I mix it all together. So there’s no dressing needed. Just half an avocado or something and a bag of this stuff and mix it together. And then I’ll throw in whatever greens I want. Because the salad or like a handful of sauerkraut – organic sauerkraut that I get from Costco. And it is an explosion of flavor. It’s so good it takes you forever to eat because it’s so much fiber. But it’s so good.



[1:54:05] Eric Thorton: It fills you up though.



[1:54:07] Ashley James: It fills you up. All it will do is fill you up.



[1:54:07] Eric Thorton: Right. With no calorie or very low calories.



[1:54:09] Ashley James: Very low calories. It’s healthy fats. And I love getting broccoli because it’s so good for the body.



[1:54:16] Eric Thorton: Well, that makes no profit for a corporation. One of the combinations,people will use any excuse for bad behavior. So when I was walking out of that movie, The Game Changers, and this lady goes, “Oh my God. If everybody does this, there’ll be unemployment everywhere.” And I just went, “Well, if you’re going to base your eating off of global employment, well, then fine. But guess what? If everything would shift –



[1:54:49] Ashley James: Right. Well, they said that if – I can’t remember whether it was if America – United States went completely whole food plant based, really vegan, or if it was the whole world. I think it was just America.



[1:55:02] Eric Thorton: Just America.



[1:55:02] Ashley James: If America stops eating meat today, then we would clear up the entire – the size of the continent of Africa in terms of the farming that is required to maintain these animals. So it was something like one third of the world, basically, would be free to be forests.



[1:55:24] Eric Thorton: To grow vegetables and forests.



[1:55:26] Ashley James: Grow vegetables. But that only –



[1:55:28] Eric Thorton: Repairs it.



[1:55:28] Ashley James: That’s only 20% of our farmland in the world is used to make non-meat.



[1:55:35] Eric Thorton: I think it’s less. It think it’s 15%.



[1:55:37] Ashley James: It was crazy. It was just crazy. So the numbers – basically, if we didn’t grow meat, then the employment would be to grow vegetables, have local farms. I think there’s a lot of benefits too. But that’s fine if her first thought was all the unemployment. All those poor people that work in the meat factories, that’s just the available job. They don’t actually like working there.



[1:55:59] Eric Thorton: No. So anyway, it’s a tough – these things that open up our brain for change are not only in our regular diet, but you can also do it, like we say, with microdosing. And we have to be very cautious when you open up our brain in our daily life to any thing. Like, I guess, I won’t meditate in groups because we’re opening yourself up. Well, that’s the same with food –



[1:56:37] Ashley James: Opening ourselves up every day.



[1:56:38] Eric Thorton: Opening ourselves up every day.



[1:56:38] Ashley James: People that go hang out McDonald’s together and eat a Big Mac, they’re opening themselves up.



[1:56:42] Eric Thorton: So the same thing that cocaine does and things like that. And again, I remember the name of the book, The Pleasure Trap. And it’s like, “Read it.” You’ll understand the chemical reaction going on. And it’s very similar to psilocybin. And it’s food. Every time you get mushrooms, you got psilocybin. And we all love mushrooms. And it’s because it gives you that same non-high level, it gives you the euphoria that cheese and other meats and things like that will give you.



[1:57:16] Ashley James: So we can find in a healthy form, like mushrooms –



[1:57:19] Eric Thorton: Cook them.



[1:57:20] Ashley James: Yeah. Cook mushrooms. But if we ate raw mushrooms, would we get  – I mean raw Portobello, would we get neurological benefits?



[1:57:32] Eric Thorton: Well, it opens you up for suggestion. There’s no neurological benefits to it.



[1:57:37] Ashley James: So eat a Portobello raw and then go to your therapist.



[1:57:41] Eric Thorton: Bring your Portobello to the therapists and eat it while you’re – that is an interesting thing that would be worth investigating.



[1:57:51] Ashley James: Right. I’m going to eat a pound Crimini or Portobello mushrooms and then I’m going to come see you and see what happens.



[1:57:58] Eric Thorton: So that would be really interesting to investigate that, wouldn’t it? But the guides just made that absolute correlation, you are opening up the power of – to opening up to suggestion. And that’s what has to be so careful about psilocybin therapy.



[1:58:15] Ashley James: Well, no one wants to be duped. And we’re being duped by marketing all the time. The thought forms, the corporate suggestions, we really need to sit back in quiet time. I think we need to reflect without a screen in front of us, without any media pouring into us. We need to sit quietly and journal and think about and contemplate this thought, “What are my beliefs and what are the beliefs that have been implanted in me from corporations -“



[1:58:51] Eric Thorton: Corporate interests.



[1:58:53] Ashley James: Corporate interests.



[1:58:54] Eric Thorton: Right. No morals. And if they do have morals, they’ve made them.



[1:59:00] Ashley James: And they’re not our morals. But they’ve made them for the purpose of profit and power.



[1:59:07] Ashley James: Yeah. And we don’t want to be duped anymore.



[1:59:10] Eric Thorton: We don’t want to be duped. We’re realizing that it does – how it does chemically, change the body to eat these foods of any sort. And the benefits and the control that can happen with that. And that’s why I will work with people that do uncontrolled hallucinogenic stuff. Just like now, I got to look at it from food. That’s going to be interesting healing sessions. But the uncontrolled and what’s happened to them versus a controlled situation. And the benefits you can get from that.



[1:59:48] Ashley James: Controlled, meaning a microdose psilocybin mushrooms –



[1:59:52] Eric Thorton: With the proper therapy.



[1:59:53] Ashley James: – with the doctor, with therapy, with working with you.



[1:59:58] Eric Thorton: So that’s where we need to go with this stuff. And that’s where the benefit I’ve had with my clients.



[2:00:04] Ashley James: Well, it’s just fascinating that people with schizophrenia are able to not have schizophrenic episodes. Is it lessened schizophrenic episodes or no schizophrenic episodes with psilocybin?



[2:00:16] Eric Thorton: From what I have read – because I’ve only had a couple patients that it has gotten rid of them.



[2:00:24] Ashley James: Gotten rid of the schizophrenic episodes.



[2:00:27] Eric Thorton: The schizophrenic episodes for a period of time. And  it’s gotten rid of the bipolar behavior for a period of time. Now, if you’re just getting the microdose from the doctor but not doing any of the homework –

Image Source: therecoveryvillage.com | Schizoprenia


[2:00:43] Ashley James: On emotional work.



[2:00:43] Eric Thorton:–  on the emotional work and things like that, what’s firing up – because schizophrenia is fired off in the brain that can have schizophrenia. It’s fired off by an emotional reaction. Well, if you can get to the emotional reactions, you’re going to win the psilocybin therapy wears off a year later. You’re going to have less things that trip you into the schizophrenic or bipolar episode. So you are healing it but you’ve got to do the work. Not just go down and get the thing once a year or once every six months, it varies from person to person. And just keep – you can, you can just keep doing that or you can do –



[2:01:20] Ashley James: But there’s no growth in that.



[2:01:23] Eric Thorton: There’s no growth. If you can find out what it’s all about, why, what triggers it, then you are in control. Not the doctors. So that’s where we go.



[2:01:34] Ashley James: Very cool. So for those who are interested in learning more about how they can work with you or discover a practitioner that will do psilocybin with them and microdoses in a safe environment and do the therapy, they can contact you, ericthorton.com. And that it’s not legal in every state or country. So that’s needs to be taken into account. But can get it.



[2:02:03] Eric Thorton: It’s their decision.



[2:02:03] Ashley James: But there are people in different states that even though it’s not legal can have access to it with certain doctors that are willing to go against the laws in order to help people. So this is sort of like – I feel like it’s, like, ten years ago with marijuana. There’s only a matter of time before it’s going to be legal. And that people will be able to use it in microdoses for this this type of healing.



[2:02:32] Eric Thorton: For this type. You have to have the following.



[2:02:35] Ashley James: But what we can do now is look at our diet. Because it affects our brain. Every meal, every meal, every –



[2:02:42] Eric Thorton: Every meal, every snack. Everything you put in your body –



[2:02:44] Ashley James: Affects our brain.



[2:02:46] Eric Thorton: And it’s different. One last thing here, it’s different from one person to the next because of the way your body digests food. And how much damage there is to your digestive system. So you have several factors there. And that’s why it’s not just a one thing fits all.



[2:03:09] Ashley James: I’m reading a really interesting book right now. It’s called The Metabolic Typing Diet. And I’m enjoying the story and the science. I don’t necessarily agree with the diet because there’s a lot of meat in it. But it’s interesting what these doctors, these clinicians found is that we metabolize – people metabolize differently depending on their autonomic nervous system, depending on their oxidative stress, depending on their alkalinity. They found seven different key factors in the metabolism that determine how food affects us.



[2:03:46]  Eric Thorton: Well, and then you have to add in which they’re not obviously not looking at yet, the psychology of it. And what we’re talking about,  the addicting factors. So like I in the work here, we look at all of that for each individual. Different set of circumstances for everybody that comes in. Because I listen to their guidance. So we can take them through whatever they’ve chosen to do. If you look at it as an individual instead of a corporate formula, you’re going to get far better care.



[2:04:22] Ashley James: Is there anything you’d like to say or share to wrap up today’s interview? I think that the guides really want to make sure that we say to clearly package this interview.



[2:04:33] Eric Thorton: Well, let’s look at how the things we put in our mouth affect our brain and our body and our digestion. And it affects every single person that is currently alive in the physical body.



[2:04:46] Ashley James: If you have a pulse.



[2:04:47] Eric Thorton: Yes. If you have a pulse, it affects you. Denial will get you nowhere. It keeps you right where you’re at, which is fine if you’re happy with it.



[2:04:55] Ashley James: I’ll share this quick story. I just had a late night phone call with a friend. I called her as we were driving home, our son fell asleep in the car. We picked him up from grandma’s after watching the movie The Game Changers, Monday night. Really good movie. It’s coming out digitally soon so everyone could watch it. Everyone needs to watch it.



2:05:13 Eric Thorton: I hope so. Everyone needs to watch it.



[2:05:14] Ashley James: It was really well done. James Cameron, who’s the guy that directed Avatar.



[2:05:19] Eric Thorton: And directing the new one currently.



[2:05:23] Ashley James: Right. Currently directing Avatar 2. He’s the mastermind behind it. So it was really well done. Even people who are totally convinced they’ll never give up meat, you should still watch it because it was very entertaining. But it was really funny too. But anyway, we’re driving home and I immediately had to call a friend who’s a – she lives in Texas. She lives in a hospital with her friend who is quadriplegic. And she’s the caregiver for this quadriplegic who has had the same bedsore that Christopher Reeves died from. And the doctors and nurses are telling my friend you know – they keep reminding my friend, “Christopher Reeves, multimillionaire, died from this. Your friend isn’t going to make it.” April, the person who’s experiencing the bedsore, she has been in three different facilities. And she’d be fine with me sharing this, I know that. I know her. And the first facility – so I sent them a blender and I said, “Put vegetables in the blender and feed April smoothies.” Because she fell and broke her neck well down in Texas. And she can’t really chew food. And so I sent them a blender and I said – because the hospital food is horrible, I said, “Just blend vegetables. Drink it.” And so the first month, there was huge healing. And she just didn’t allow April to have any of the hospital food. And they got the doctors on board. Just vegetables and smoothies and almond milk or whatever and drink it, and the healing was amazing. Of course, they’re doing all their therapies on it.

And then they transferred April to a different hospital who, for one month, did not allow April to have any vegetables. They said no. They only gave her some kind of protein shake with fake nutrients in it. And she got worse. And then transferred to a different hospital, and now starting to get better again. And the whole time ,it’s antibiotic after antibiotic. And all these – they’re throwing everything they have allopathically. But the diet, she was doing really bad. Then got on the vegetables and the smoothie, started healing amazingly and responding to their therapies. Then was taken off that diet and started getting worse. Then was put back on the diet and started getting better.



2:08:04 Eric Thorton: Right. It’s all because of antioxidants. We’re the only mammal that doesn’t produce antioxidants. We have to eat them. And they only come from fruits and vegetables. They reduce the oxidative stress. The body could heal even while sitting on the wound.


[2:08:20] Ashley James: Right. And it’s just amazing that hospitals feed complete crap to people wanting them to get better.



[2:08:26] Eric Thorton: Right. It’s just amazing that they do. There’s nothing – there’s no value to their food.



[2:08:33] Ashley James: So coming back to the original point, because people are interested in the emotional and mental healing that had taken place with microdosing psilocybin or at least curious to learn more about it, which they have today. But what’s really interesting is that every single person has the power to shift how their brain heals or shift how their emotions heal through every meal.



[2:08:57] Eric Thorton: Every single one.



[2:08:58] Ashley James: Yeah. Very cool.



[2:08:59] Eric Thorton: It is. It’s very cool. And I’m happy to be a part of whatever people want me to help them with.



[2:09:07] Ashley James: Yeah. I definitely recommend listeners work with you. I’ve had amazing experiences working with you as it has my husband, as it has my friends. It’s a pleasure to be here again today, Eric.



[2:09:17] Eric Thorton: Always.



[2:09:18] Ashley James: Thank you so much for coming back on the show.



[2:09:20] Eric Thorton: Thank you for having me.



[2:09:21] Ashley James: Absolutely. And listeners can go to Learn True Health Facebook Group and type any questions you have for Eric because he’s a regular on the show. And you guys can ask questions.



[2:09:30] Eric Thorton: I’d love to hear them. That’s a great idea. I’d love to hear them. We could do a show just on questions people write in.



[2:09:36] Ashley James: Yeah. Awesome. All right. Terrific. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure being with you again.



[2:09:39] Eric Thorton: Thank you too, also. However you say that.



[2:09:46] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business and support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition. But from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to learntruehealth.com/coach and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There’s so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to takeyoursupplements.com and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s takeyoursupplements.com. Takeyoursupplements.com. That’s takeyoursupplements.com. Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


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Recommended Reading by Eric Thorton

Educating the Souls, Spiritual Healing and our Eternal Psychology


Check out other interviews of Eric Thorton!

Episode 380: Understanding Your Aura

Episode 375: Spiritual Healing In The Real World

Episode 359: Lives Of Discovery

Episode 336: Energetic Boundaries (Part II)

Episode 335: Energetic Boundaries

Episode 327: Spiritual Healing

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Dr. Natasha Campbell – McBride And Ashley James


  • GAPS or Gut And Psychology Syndrome
  • Diet as a natural cure for many psychiatric and neurological conditions
  • GAPS diet
  • Symptoms of GAPS
  • Normal and abnormal gut flora
  • Antibiotics in food
  • The body’s reaction to undigested food
  • Rebuilding the gut lining, heal and seal the gut wall
  • Sources of toxicity in the body
  • Babies are born with high toxic load and acquire abnormal gut flora
  • FPIES or Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis Syndrome
  • Recovery by using the GAPS nutritional protocol
  • GAPS diet is for a lifetime
  • Allergies and the GAPS diet
  • The role of cholesterol and fats
  • Vegetarianism and vegan diet – Veganism is not a diet. It is a form of fasting
  • Eat when you are hungry
  • Trust, listen, and work with your body


Have you ever wondered how our guts play a major role in our body? In today’s episode, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride will share with us GAPS, the normal and abnormal gut flora and how our body reacts to food.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seekers. And welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health Podcast.

I am so, so honored today to have with us Dr. Campbell-McBride. She’s a nutritionist, a medical doctor, neurologist, and neurosurgeon. She’s the creator of the GAPS diet, which stands for Gut And Psychology Syndrome. Her diet heals the gut, eliminates leaky gut syndrome, and thus helps to heal the nervous system. Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride shares that the GAPS diet helped cure her first son of autism. She now widely promotes the diet as a natural cure for many psychiatric and neurological conditions, including autism, asthma, allergies, food sensitivities, ADD and ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia, depression, schizophrenia, Tourette’s Syndrome, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, eating disorders, gout, and childhood bedwetting.

It is so fascinating to hear the relationship between gut health and our brain and our nervous system and our immune system. And you’re going to love all the things that Dr. Campbell-McBride shares today.

As you’re listening to this episode and if you really geek out on this kind of information, learning about different diets that heal the body in a certain way, and you want to learn more about all the dietary theories out there that helped to heal different issues in the body really using food as medicine, consider becoming a student at IIN, the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. This is the online school that I went to, to become a health coach. It’s a year-long training program designed for busy, busy moms and dads or busy working people that also want to learn this information. So they make it in a way that allows you to do it in your free time. Listen to these great audios and watch these videos that you can fit it into your everyday life.

And in the course of a year, you learn a hundred dietary theories and all the ways in which you can heal the body with food. You also learn how to help others. So whether you want to become a health coach to help others or just have another tool in your tool belt to help your friends and family and help yourself, IIN has an amazing program. It was really life changing for me and I’ve said this before in the podcast, I would have done the program just for myself. Just for the personal growth that it gave me. And then in addition to that, it added more tools in my tool belt to help others. So if you’d like to learn more information, you can go to learntruehealth.com/coach. That’s learntruehealth.com/coach and it allows you to take one of their modules for free to see if it’s something that interests you.

If you have any questions about IIN or going through it as a student and want to know more about the experience, please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach out to me through Facebook and our Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group. Or you can email me, [email protected] and I’d love to answer any questions you may have about my experience about going through it as a student. There are actually dozens of people, dozens of listeners that have gone through their program and become health coaches that are also in our Facebook Group. So you can just post in our Facebook Group, the Learn True Health Facebook Group, any questions you have, and not only will I answer them, but others will answer it so you’ll get an even deeper picture of what it’s like to go through their program.

Excellent. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you love. Please share this episode with the mothers and fathers in your life who have children who may have some difficulties with development or with ADD or ADHD, with allergies. This is something that is life changing not only for children but also for adults. I have a friend who this diet saved her life. Because those who have autoimmune conditions as well see great benefit from doing this protocol if they have leaky gut syndrome. So as you’re listening, you may also start to think about all the friends and family that would benefit from hearing this information. So please keep sharing and thank you so much for helping me get this information out there to help as many people as possible to learn true health.



[4:47] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is Episode 385.

I am so excited for today’s guest. We have with us – I feel like it’s I’m like in the presence of a Hollywood celebrity in the health realm – Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. I have been a big fan of yours. Many of our listeners have been a big fan of yours. And one of my friends who is also a listener says that she would be dead right now if it wasn’t for your protocol. You literally saved her life. And she is the biggest fan girl. Her name is Caroline. She just loves you. So I just want you to know there’s a woman in Seattle who loves you so dearly. People around the world have shared that your protocol has changed their lives. I first saw you on Netflix, actually. The season two, episode one of the Paleo Way. And I was really confused because there are all these diets out there that totally contradict each other.

And what I really get about diets is that it’s about figuring out what your body needs right now. And you have such a scientifically sound protocol to help people heal the brain and heal the gut. You’ve created the GAPS diet. Your website is gaps.me. And we have all the links to everything that Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride in the show notes for today’s podcast Learn True Health. It is such a pleasure to have you here today. Welcome to the show.



[6:26] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Thank you for inviting me. I’m delighted to be here.



[6:29] Ashley James: Absolutely. And thank you for taking the time. Isn’t like 6:00 p.m. your time in London right now?



[6:35] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: It is.



[6:36] Ashley James: Excellent. Well, thank you. Good evening. And I’d love to start by hearing the story. What happened that led you to create the GAPS diet?



[6:50] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Well, I guess it was my fate to create it. Because when I was 18 months old, I fell ill myself and nearly died. I had the food poisoning in the crash. And the food was just going in and coming out. And I was losing weight and literally dying. Until my parents contacted my grandmother – my grandparents in the village who had a smallholding in the village. My grandmother took me there and she healed me. And later on I’ve learned what she healed me with was the GAPS diet, basically. That’s exactly what it was.

Photo by Henrique Félix on Unsplash

[7:28] Ashley James: I love it.



[7:29] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: They have their own – yes. They have their own animals. They have their cow and sheep and chickens and garden and bees and all of that and everything was natural. And my grandmother used to make her own fermented milk from her own milk – raw milk. So that’s what healed me. And then when I got married and moved to Britain, my first child was diagnosed with autism at the age of three. And I knew, I knew instinctively at that point that it’s coming from the digestive tract. Because he had severe digestive problems right from the beginning. So I knew that it’s the diet. That the diet has to fix it. That is the most important thing.

And of course, in those days we didn’t have internet. All I could do is go to the local library and ask for books or whatever. And I came across the specific carbohydrate diet. Because I went to a conference where Elaine Gottschall was speaking. And we made a professional relationship. We became professional friends. And I started that protocol. And then I’ve changed it, evolved it, adding what my grandmother would do. Adding the traditional diets to the traditional wisdom to it. And then my own patients have called it the GAPS diet, standing for Gut And Psychology Syndrome. That’s the abbreviation.

Later on, I’ve added another GAPS strip, Gut And Physiology Syndrome. Because initially, obviously, I focused on autism. And as I was working with autistic children, I realized that their siblings are not healthy either. They have digestive symptoms, they have allergies, asthma, eczema, many of them are clingy, many of them are hyperactive, many of them are fussy eaters. Fussy eating just universally present amongst these children. And I realized that these children are just as well as their autistic sibling is just that they’ve had a different pregnancy, different constitution so they’re not autistic, but they have problems which stem from the same place – from the digestive system.

And as I started putting whole families on the GAPS diet, on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the parents started recovering from chronic fatigue syndrome, from fibromyalgia, from multiple sclerosis, from allergies, from migraines, from chronic cystitis, from all kinds of problems. As well as the siblings and the autistic children. So I realized that this is one condition that indeed, as Hippocrates put it all those thousands of years ago, all diseases begin in the gut. Every one of them, chronic diseases. We’re not talking about acute situations, of course. We’re talking about chronic diseases. That they all begin in the gut. And that’s where the treatment has to begin.

What we have with these people, they have abnormal gut flora. Recent research discovered the fact that 90% of all cells in the human body are in our gut flora, 90%. So our human bodies are only 10%. It’s a shell, a habitat for this mass of microbes that live inside us. That’s our gut flora. And it is a highly organized microbial world in a healthy person with all kinds of microbes are present there. From the bacteria viruses, protozoa, archaea, worms, flukes, all kinds of things have to be there. Because they’re all part of the harmonious community of microbes. They plant each other. They harvest each other. They eat each other. They control each other. They don’t allow one another to get out of control and start causing trouble. And normally, when you have that balanced community of microbes in there, then you are able to digest the food properly and benefit from that food. And it protects you from all kinds of illnesses. It protects you from any kind of reactions of the immune system. Because 85% of our immune system is located in the gut wall.

Our digestive system is a major immune organ in our body. It’s the biggest and the most important immune organ in the body. So any kind of immune abnormality, whether it is a chronic inflammation, or allergy, or autoimmune disease, or anything else, or histamine intolerance or anything else. Look in the gut. Don’t look anywhere else. Look in the gut first. Because that’s where the majority of the immune system is. That is where all the commanding echelons of our immune system are. All the generals, admirals, officers, the commanding echelons. And that’s where all the major decisions are made, in the gut.

So what happens in GAPS people, they have abnormal gut flora. Because we live in the world, which is literally set on damaging our gut flora from the moment of birth even before then. Antibiotics, and not only prescription antibiotics but antibiotics in our food because majority of agricultural chemicals used by our industrial agriculture, which grows our plant foods and then feeds them to our animals and feeds cows and pigs and sheep and chickens with antibiotics on a daily basis. Because that makes them increase weight quicker, grow quicker, so it’s more profitable. So all the industrially produced food that you buy in supermarkets is full of antibiotics. Chemicals which are antibiotics in their nature. Every time we put food in our mouths, we eat antibiotics. Antibiotics kill bacteria. That’s all they can kill, bacteria. These bacteria were eating and controlling fungi, viruses, protozoa, archaea, and other things. When you knock them out, all these other creatures suddenly are not controlled anymore. The balance is gone in the digestive tract. As it is on the overgrow and instead of being a beneficial member of a balanced community, they suddenly become pathogenic. They become villains. They start producing toxic substances and they start damaging the integrity of the gut wall.

A gut wall in the GAPS person is like a [inaudible 00:13:51], it’s got holes in it. So food doesn’t get the chance to get digested properly before it absorbs through these holes into your blood and into your lymph. And then your immune system finds this undigested food in your blood, in your lymph. It doesn’t recognize them as food and attacks them. And this attack, first and foremost, manifests itself as a food allergy or intolerance. So that can show itself as any kind of symptoms under the sun. It can be a drop in your blood pressure. It can be a drop in your blood sugar level. It can be a migraine attack. It can be an asthma attack. It can be a skin rash. It can be a panic attack. It can be about cystitis or anything else. It can be a heart palpitations. Anything at all.

And the symptoms can be immediate or it can be delayed. So on any given day, you have no idea what you’re reacting to. You might be reacting at the same time to something you’ve just eaten for lunch plus something you’ve eaten yesterday plus something you’ve eaten several days ago plus something you’ve eaten two weeks ago. All these reactions overlap on top of each other. In effect, you’re reacting to pretty much all food that you’re eating. Because all food is absorbing partially digested, improperly digested. You’re absorbing a lot of food undigested and you’re reacting to it.

There are many laboratories in the world which now can do testing for you on this food allergies and intolerances. And they tell you to remove this food and remove that food. And I’ve lost count of people who have taken that out and they started removing foods and removing and removing, then finish up with virtually nothing left to eat. They’ve got a few, literally, a handful of foods that they’re eating and they’re still reacting. Because as long as you got this like [inaudible 00:15:44], you are absorbing everything undigested. You’re reacting to everything.

So in the GAPS nutritional protocol, I don’t even recommend doing this testing, particularly for people who have limited funds. It’s expensive to do testing. We work on healing and sealing the gut lining. We rebuild the gut lining for the person. Because the beautiful fact is that, human body doesn’t waste effort on healing sick cells or damaged cells. If a cell is damaged, if a cell is sick, it is killed and removed. And then new baby cells are to replace it. In order to give birth to this baby cells, building materials are required. And the whole process is ruled and orchestrated by the bacteria, by the microbes. Not just bacteria but the whole microbial community in the gut. This beautiful process is called cell regeneration. And it goes on in every organ, every tissue in the human body. In the gut lining this process is very fast, very rapid. The cells which line our gut will only live a few days. They have a very short life. And they get replaced all the time. New baby cells are born all the time.

The problem is if a person has abnormal gut flora, and it’s the gut flora that is in charge of this process, these newly born baby cells get damaged immediately as soon as they’re born. Even before they mutate and they’re unable to fulfill proper functions of digestion and absorption of food. So what we want to do, at the same time, we want to change the gut flora. We want to drive out pathogens. Replace them with the beneficial flora. Restore the diversity of gut flora. Restore the whole harmonious microbial community in the gut. So this process goes right and this baby cells do not get damaged. At the same time in order for the gut lining to give birth to trillions of cells every day, we provide concentrated amounts of building materials for the body to make the cells from. And that is what the GAPS diet provides for the person.

So in effect, what we’re doing, we’re building new gut wall for the person. We’re healing and selling it. So that is one aspect of what happens to Gaps people.

The second thing that happens to GAPS people, because their gut flora is abnormal, the food that comes along is digested by this pathogenic abnormal community of microbes. And they have their own metabolism. They convert food into wastes, various products. And these products then absorbed for the damaged gut lining and finish up in the bloodstream. Many of them, thousands of them, are done by poisonous pathogenic. They go into the bloodstream. They get distributed around the body and cause havoc in every organ and every tissue. At the same time, these microbes all of them have their own metabolism. They produce hormones. In fact, now they produce so many hormones in such huge amounts that now researchers in gut flora have pronounced our gut flora to be the biggest and the most important endocrine organ in the human body.

The flow of hormones that comes from the gut flora is enormous. And of course, when these hormones finish up in our bloodstream, they regulate our hormonal balance. They talk to your thyroid gland, to your pancreas, to your dreams, to your sexual hormones. And they upset it. They unbalance it. As a result, usually typically GAPS people develop low thyroid function. Their adrenal hormones all over the place. Cortisol is usually high through the roof. So these people are constantly in a stress response. They can’t sleep well. They can’t cope with their stress. They can’t cope with pressure. And their adrenals are not working very well. They get exhausted in this people. And so sex hormones are all over the place. Some are too high, some are too low, the whole thing is dysregulated. And that will produce perimenstrual syndrome. That will produce polycystic ovaries. That will produce dysmenorrhea and various other problems in that area. In men, it will produce also problems in that area. And infertility is one of those problems as well.

And I would mention another problem that I see because I work with children and have been working for the last, almost, 30 years. So many of these children still stay with me. I observe them for a long, long time. Many of these children with abnormal gut flora, have abnormal sexual development due to this flow of hormones. Hormones from their gut flora. Girls are not sure they’re girls. Boys are not sure they’re boys. There are some secondary sexual characteristics which are not quite right, not quite normal. And they’re abnormalities in this area due to this fact.

Another thing that this community of microbes produces in combination with the gut itself are neurotransmitters. We now know that almost 100% of serotonin is produced in the gut and then transported to the brain to be used. About 70% of dopamine is produced in the gut and then sent to the nervous system to be used. Almost 100% of GABA is produced in the gut. And many other endorphins and neurotransmitters. These are chemicals that our nervous system, the cells in our brain and spine, use to communicate between themselves and between each other.

And when the serotonin is low, if your gut is not functioning well, your gut wall is abnormal, it’s unable to produce enough serotonin. If your serotonin is low then you can’t sleep well, you become negative, and you become depressed. You don’t see any joy in life at all. Because to be positive, to be content, we need serotonin.

When there isn’t enough dopamine, it’s a motivational neurotransmitter, that’s another side of depression. When the person is just apathetic. They don’t want to get out of bed. They don’t want to brush their teeth, brush their hair, change their clothes, to wash themselves. What’s the point? This person has no dopamine. Not enough dopamine is being produced.

When there isn’t enough GABA, the person becomes anxious. That is the cause of anxiety in the person and panic attacks.

And the combination, all of these neurotransmitters are very powerful. They have many, many functions in many different organs, not only on the nervous system. They also affect the immune system. They affect how the muscles work and how many, many other organs in the body work. So it’s a disaster just these three aspects of the activity of the gut flora, abnormal hormonal flow, abnormal neurotransmitter flow, and thousands of poisonous chemicals absorbing. All of this situation turns the digestive system of a person into a major source of toxicity in the body.

While the food is not digesting properly, not absorbing properly, and the person developing multiple nutritional deficiencies. When you have abnormal gut flora, you can be eating the best diet in the world, the best quality food in the world. But you are unable to digest it properly, to absorb it properly. And this food is not really benefiting you as a result. So that’s what happens in the GAPS person.

The more we research gut flora, the more we research microbiome – that’s the new term that science has created – the more we realize that there is nothing sterile in the human body. We have microbes living everywhere. Our blood vessels are populated by microbial community. Our blood has microbes in it. Our heart, our lungs, our brain has microbes in it. Our abdominal cavity has its own microbial flora. The uterus in a woman, the tubes in the woman, the ovaries have their own flora. The flora is everywhere.

But the bulk of it, the headquarters of all these microbial community are in the gut. And I believe that it is from the gut that all the major instructions and data and information goes to the rest of the microbiome in the human body – from the gut. So when we fix the gut, when we turn that gut flora back to normal, and when they heal and seal the gut wall, everything else in my clinical experience just fixes itself in the body.

The person might come to me with rheumatoid arthritis. And when I asked them about their digestive system, they say, “Well, I’m okay in that department. No diarrhea, no constipation, no gas, no bloating, no pain. I’m all right.” But when we test their gut flora, we find that it’s abnormal. When we test the permeability of their gut wall, we find that it’s like a safe, everything absorbs undigested and it’s just the flow of toxicity coming through it. And when we put the person on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the rheumatoid arthritis disappears. The person recovers from this disease which is far away from the digestive system and nobody would connect the two.

The same with the mental illness with the brain. Look how high the brain is in the body and where the digestive system is. That is why for a long time nobody connected the two. And with the GAPS nutritional protocol, what we do – and my book has – the GAPS book came out first in 2004. And when it first came out, I lost count of mainstream medical professionals and professors and so on who were telling me that I’m absolutely crazy. That I’m off my rocker saying things like that. That autism has any connection to the digestive system. Or hyperactivity in children or anything else like that. Now we have a number of scientific studies published which are confirming that fact. So the science eventually caught up with us, which is great.

So what happens in an autistic child? From my point of view and from the point of view of many other holistic doctors that I know, ecological doctors, almost 100% of these poor little darlings, these autistic children in the world – we have an epidemic of autism – we’re born with a perfectly normal brain. These were perfectly normal babies.

But what happened to these babies? They acquired abnormal gut flora from the mother. We now know that the child starts acquiring gut flora during pregnancy in utero. Because the woman has uterine flora. She got the flora in her uterus and her placenta. The placenta is populated richly, apparently, by microbes. And that’s where it all begins. So the baby is born already with some microbes populating the whole digestive system, the skin of the child, the eyes of the child, the mucous membranes. But then a large percent of our gut flora comes in into the baby during the moment of birth if the child is born vaginally, if the child is born normally. Because vagina is richly populated area of the woman’s body. And that flora comes from two sources. It comes from her gut flora. So whatever gut flora she has, it travels out of her rectum, into the groin, and populates the vagina.

The second source is the father. If the father has abnormal gut flora, then he’s groin and all the organs in that area will be populated with that abnormal gut flora. And he shares that flora with the mother a regular basis through sexual conduct. So that’s how Mother Nature designed it. So both mommy and daddy pass their gut flora to the child  at the moment of birth.

If the child was born through C-section, then the flora is impoverished. That’s what research shows. That the diversity of microbes in the flora of these children is much, much lower. It’s impoverished because they didn’t go through the vagina. Therefore, it comes from the hands of people who look after the child, from the bottle, from the nipple of the mother. Because the milk ducts in the breasts of the mother are populated by and enriched microbial flora. So breast milk is a probiotic food. It’s rich in beneficial microbes plus all the necessary food to encourage the right kind of microbes to grow in the digestive tract to the child. So breast is still the best without a doubt. If the child on top of that is not breastfed, is bottle fed, then that’s another source of good gut flora eliminated in this child.

So why is it important to understand and know the parents pass their gut flora? Because that is where we find the source of this epidemic of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia, diabetes type one, allergies, asthma, eczema, and under problems in our children.

About a third of Western children certainly in the United States of America are now being estimated that they will not outlive their parents. Children who were born in the last ten years or so. Because their constitution is so poor and their health is so poor. They just haven’t got the chance, this children. And unfortunately, that proportion of children is growing every year and the situation is getting worse every year. And the same with autism.

When I started practicing when my own child was born, we were diagnosing one child in 10,000 with autism. Today we’re diagnosing one child in 35. And scientists have already projected that line for them. And by 2025, between 2020 and 2025 in the English speaking countries which are on the forefront of this epidemic, they are predicting that one child in two will become autistic.

Half. The other half of our babies will not be healthy either. They will have ADHD, ADD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder. The list of various diagnostic labels is growing all the time. Epilepsy, diabetes type one is an absolute epidemic. Absolute epidemic. It is growing through the roof. Rheumatoid arthritis in our babies. Eczema, asthma, allergies, all kinds of health problems. And the proportion of these children is growing.

So what is happening and while this is happening? Before I talk about the health of the child in my clinic, I always talk about the health of the parents first and our grandparents as well, and all the siblings. And out of that information, a typical scenario has emerged. If the grandmother and grandfather were born, let’s say, after the Second World War, they’ve acquired normal healthy gut flora from their parents. Or maybe during the Second World War, they were born. And then antibiotics came onto the market in the 50s, maybe they had one or two courses of antibiotics which damaged their gut flora slightly. It didn’t have any effect on their own health, you know, because the human body is pretty resilient. And then they passed a slightly damaged gut flora to their children at the moment of birth, both the mother and the father. And then these children grew up in a very different world. They grew up in a world where antibiotics were given to them throughout their childhood and youth as sweets for every cough and sneeze, regular courses of antibiotics.

This was the time when the food industry flourished and appeared on the planet. And industrial agriculture appeared on the planet. And then the increasing number of agricultural chemicals being used, many which antibiotics in their nature. This is the time when junk food came onto the market. So a lot of these kids grow up on junk food, processed foods, full of antibiotics, full of chemicals. And then this is the time the generations where the girls will put on the contraceptive pill at the age of 15 or 16, which they took for quite a few years. Because this is the generation again where people started having children later and later in life. So the woman takes this pill for quite a while, quite a few years, before she is ready to have her first child.

Contraceptive pill has a devastating effect on the gut flora and on the immune system of the woman as well. So by the time this generation of people decides to have their first child, they got fully seriously damaged. And that is what they passed to their child at the moment of birth. So these children start their life from a very poor stand, already acquiring abnormal gut flora, abnormal microbiome of the whole body, from their parents. And what I see that every year, this situation is getting worse and worse, deeper and deeper. Those who had their first baby five years ago, passed a little bit better gut flora than young ladies who are having children this year or last year. And it’s accelerating. The whole thing is just accelerating. This is the epidemic of abnormalities in the gut flora that the GAPS epidemic. That is the root cause of all the other epidemics we have, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, poor vision in the children, epilepsy, diabetes type one, allergies, and so on. And every year the situation is getting worse.

Photo by Santi Vedrí on Unsplash


There’s another factor that joined in the last few decades, particularly recently in the last 20 or 25 years, and that is the toxic load that the baby is born with. It sounds cruel. It sounds unfair. But the way Mother Nature designed a woman’s body is that it uses pregnancy as a chance to clean up by dumping toxins into the fetus, into the baby. Our ladies nowadays grow up in the world, they are born into a world where vanity rules. We now have five year old girls dyeing their hair, doing nails, using makeup, all kinds of personal care products usually targeted at female population as well. All these chemicals, the personal care industry, the makeup, the hair, all of this sort of things. Human skin is not a barrier. It’s a sponge. It absorbs everything you put on it in seconds.

And our chemical industry to date has invented some 80,000 or something of new chemicals which don’t exist in nature. And this list is growing all the time. We haven’t even researched the majority of these chemicals. They are not safe. The human body doesn’t know what to do with them. They accumulate in the human body and the body just tucks them away somewhere so they don’t cause damage.

So by the time the lady is ready to have her first child and women have their children later and later in life, majority of women in the Western world now wouldn’t even think about it until they’re 30, even later sometimes. So the longer the woman waits, the more toxicity her body accumulates. And then as soon as she gets pregnant for the first time, her body thinks great, “I’ll clean up.” And it dumps the whole lot into the baby – into the fetus. If that toxicity is enough to kill the baby then the woman will have a miscarriage or a stillbirth. We have an epidemic of miscarriages. The statistics are also growing. But miscarriage is not a happy event. But it is a chance for the woman’s body to clean up. So for the following pregnancy, she’s cleaner. And she will continue having miscarriages until her body is clean enough to provide an environment for producing a viable body for her baby.

If the woman didn’t have enough toxicity in her body, then her baby will be born with a high toxic load, if it wasn’t enough toxicity to kill a fetus, the fetus has survived, but the baby will be born with a high toxic load. And that means this baby has a compromised constitution. This is not going to be a healthy person. A healthy human being born with a high toxic load. And indeed, if you look at the statistics of autism, of ADHD, and other problems, other health problems in children, the vast majority of them are first born in the family. Because the woman cleaned up on the first pregnancy. And the following pregnancies, she had a cleaner body for those and these children were born with a smaller toxic load. As a result, stronger constitution and stronger health, generally speaking. If a woman was exposed to some toxicity between pregnancies, which can happen in our modern world as well, then following pregnancy will also dump a lot of toxicity into the child.

So this is a double whammy for babies nowadays. They’re born with a high toxic load plus they acquire abnormal gut flora. So there are gaps this children. From my point of view, nobody’s researching this. There are no epidemiological studies done on this yet in the world. How many of our babies are born as GAPS? But from my point of view, a vast majority. A growing majority. It is hard to see healthy babies nowadays. Babies are affected in one way or another.

So what happens in this child? The child begins its life with abnormal gut flora. While the child is exclusively breastfed – breast milk is the best food for the baby for many reasons. First of all, it doesn’t mean digesting. It absorbs – the nutrients are all there ready to be absorbed and to nourish the child. It is perfect. Absolutely perfect. Secondly, the milk ducts in the breast populates a beneficial flora. So this is a probiotic food. So while we are exclusively breastfeeding, we are correcting the gut flora in the child getting it better a little bit.

At the same time whatever abnormal gut flora the mother passed to her child, she had for a while herself. So her immune system has developed some defenses against her own gut flora. She would have antibodies. She will have immune complexes against this microbes. And all of this immune complexes and antibodies will be flowing in her milk. Because milk of any animal is the white blood of the female with red blood cells removed. So everything that is in your blood, in the mother’s blood, will be in her milk. And that means all the immune complexes alive and active, alive and active hormones, neurotransmitters, microbes, nutrients and the right kind of biochemical forms so the breast milk is the best. There’s no doubt about it. So while the woman is breastfeeding, she passed her abnormal gut to the child but at the same time through her breast milk she’s providing protection for her baby. So the baby is protected.

The baby might have colic. Colic is the first symptom that the child has abnormal gut flora. It must not be ignored. It’s very important, Colic has become so universal that health [inaudible 00:39:13] pronounced it as normal. Because they just see so many babies with colic. It is not normal. It means that the gut flora is abnormal in the child and it’s producing too much gas. At the same time, inflammation sets in the walls of the digestive tract of the child. When the bubble of gas accumulates somewhere in the digestive tract, it stretches those sore, inflamed walls, and the child has pain. The child has cramps that is why the child is crying. And until that gas gets released, one way or another, or gas moved into a less painful area of the digestive tract, the child will be screaming. So this should be a signal to the parents that the gut flora is abnormal. We must do something to deal with the situation because if we don’t, later on, that can lead towards autism, towards another learning disability or epilepsy or allergies or [inaudible 00:40:05] or something else disastrous for the child. So that is the first thing that happens.

The child may have colic, the child may be crying, may have eczema. Because eczema is a GAPS condition. What happens? A lot of this toxicity that absorbs from the digestive tract has to be removed from the body somehow. And sweat is a major way to eliminate things out of the body. So when these toxins come out in sweat, they cause irritation on the skin. There is a flora on the skin. The microbes interact with those toxins. They try to initialize them, eat them, or maybe convert them into something even more toxic. That’s a possibility. And of course the immune system is going to join the whole party. When the immune system joins the whole party, that’s when you get the redness, the swelling, the itchy scratchy patches on the skin. Only when the immune system joins in. Because it’s not the toxins and not the microbes that caused the symptoms, It’s the immune system trying to deal with that situation that causes the red, the hot, the itchy, and the painful patches on the skin. So that’s what eczema is. The root of it isn’t the gut. That’s where the toxicity comes from. So when we heal and seal the gut, eczema disappears.

And I have thousands of children who healed from eczema very nicely when they followed the GAPS nutritional protocol. So this baby – let’s come back to this exclusively breastfed baby, the baby might be crying because of colic. The baby might have eczema. But the baby is growing, developing, nobody is particularly concerned. But when solids are introduced or formula is added to the breast milk regimen. And formula, now we have studies to show that even occasional bottle or formula changes the gut flora in the child towards pathogenic end.

So we really need to work on exclusively breastfeeding our babies and avoiding all commercial formulas because they do our babies no good. This is a dead powder made of processed synthetic things, which do nothing good for the baby whatsoever. So breastfeeding, breast is the best.

And many women who do not produce enough milk or have some problems with breastfeeding, they ask me, “What do I do? If I can’t feed formula, what do I do?” What we need to do in our human societies – modern human society is to resurrect thousands of years old practice. Because formula only existed in the world for a few decades. What did women do for thousands of years when a girl can’t produce enough milk for her baby? There will be other women around who are breastfeeding their babies, they will feed her baby for her. And that was called wet nursing. We need to bring that practice back. That is the only viable and the only proper thing to do for our babies. Not to run to the pharmacy and buying formula.

So what I recommend to all pregnant girls who go to antenatal classes, I tell them, “You single out. If you pregnant ladies there who look healthy, speak to them and say let’s form a group.” Because you never know what happens. Giving birth is the most dangerous thing a woman can do in her life. It’s completely unpredictable. You can prepare in the best possible way. You don’t know what’s going to happen. Really, it is from the experience of obstetricians. They will confirm that experience. “So let’s form a group, girls. If one of us cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, we will feed that baby, we will share our milk.”

Many women when they breastfeed produce so much milk, they can feed more than one baby. Definitely. I was one of those women. When I was breastfeeding my two babies, I could breastfeed five, no doubt about it. I had so much milk. And it was very, very rich. I would have been perfectly happy to share. So there are many women like that. And that’s what we need to do. We need to create these communities of wet nursing to support each other and to support our babies. Because no matter how clever and how well the formula is marketed, no formula in the world will ever come close to the quality of the breast milk of a woman. So that’s what we need to be doing.

And what happens to these babies with abnormal gut flora when the solids are introduced? That’s when their pathogenic microbes suddenly get the feast. You know, and usually it’s baby rice or processed powdered milk or anything else processed for these babies. And so they feast on that and they start manufacturing all their toxins and all the abnormal hormones go in and other things go in. And that’s where real problems begin in the child.

And many children nowadays instinctively learn that solids are not good for them. Anything apart from mommy’ breasts, everything else they just diffuse these babies. Because maybe when they were given the first solid or the first formula milk or anything else, the child got a tummy ache or maybe got a headache or maybe got pain in the joints or pain in the muscles. The baby can’t explain this to you. But the baby learns that anything but mommy’s breasts hurts me. I’m not going to have it. They refuse it.

It is rare for a human child to continue thriving exclusively on breast milk past the age of nine months, ten months, maybe on average. That’s when children start losing weight. And the development starts slowing down and everybody gets concerned. And that’s when the child gets diagnosed with failure to thrive in this situation. And the mainstream does all sorts of terrible things. These children have a tube through their nose and fed synthetic formulas through the nose and all sorts of things like that. And if that continues, the child will develop severe profound physical and mental disability.

What we do with these children, we put them on the first stage of the GAPS introduction diet. We start with meat stock for these babies. [Inaudible 00:46:22] boil chicken. We get organic chicken, boil the whole chicken in about two or three liters of water, and we start with that meat stock. The meat stock is warm. It is soothing. It is healing for this baby. So what the mother does when the baby is ready to eat, is not stressed, the baby needs to be happy and calm. There’s no crying, no pain anywhere. And before you give the breast to the child, you give the child one teaspoon of this warm chicken stock. Just put it in the child’s mouth and let the baby swallow it. What we’re doing with teaching the child that the spoon is safe. Because at some point the child learn that spoon is dangerous. That anything coming off the spoon gives me pain. I’m not going to have anything from the spoon or from the beaker or from the bottle or anything else. We’re re-teaching the child that the spoon is safe. And the beaker is safe and the bottle is safe by using this warm soothing healing meat stock.

And we’ll start with a small achievable target, one teaspoon before the breast is given. So before every breastfeeding, we give one teaspoon until one teaspoon is not a problem. Then we move to two teaspoons before every breastfeeding. Then three teaspoons and so on until we start using a bottle, start using a beaker, and the child has a good amount of this meat stock before every breastfeeding. When that’s not a problem, then we’ll take the skin, the fat, a little bit of brown meat of the wings and the legs of that chicken that we made the meat stock and blend into the bouillon into the stock. And this is only for soup. So we’ll make that soup gradually thicker and thicker and thicker. So the child is having the stock and and the chicken itself. And the most valuable parts of the skin of the chicken and the fat of the chicken and a little bit of brown meat. Not the breasts.

And then if that’s not a problem anymore and that has become a normal part of the child’s daily routine, having this little soup, then we start adding some vegetables to the soup. We cook them well. We start with non-starch vegetables. This is described in my book – in my GAPS book, that is part four there, about preconception and new baby. Where there is a diet on new baby. That’s how we deal with that situation.

Learning disabilities and other serious physical problems usually develop when breastfeeding stops in the baby. Because the breast milk was providing protection from these disabilities. Despite the fact that the child has acquired abnormal gut flora. The child has colic, has eczema maybe, has other problems, but as long as the breast milk is provided, it provides protection. Because we can’t live with colic and many parents wouldn’t mind – you know, I’m not so concerned about eczema even compared to autism. Autism was a far more disastrous situation than any of those other situations. So nobody wants that. So what I recommend for these families, if you know that your gut flora is abnormal, if you know that your child already has a colic, has eczema, or has something wrong with the gut flora, breastfeed for as long as you can. Two, three, four years. Even once a day, a little supplement of breast milk will do wonders. It will boost the immune cell status of the child. It will provide the right nutrition. It will provide healing substances for the gut lining. It will provide probiotic microbes for the child. Just don’t stop breastfeeding until you’re sure your child is doing well. And in the meantime, follow the GAPS nutritional protocol to heal the gut, to heal the immune system, to normalize and rebalance the hormonal system in the child, neurotransmitter production, and immune function. Everything in the child will straighten up on the GAPS nutritional protocol.

There’s another very serious situation that is fairly modern. It’s a new diagnostic label called a FPIES. There are now variations of this diagnostic label. And that is a Food Protein-Induced Enterocolitis in the child. Basically, what we have here, we have a child with such damaged gut wall with big holes in the gut wall. So all protein in this child absorbs undigested. And these are the children who are often exclusively breastfed. Breast milk goes in, diarrhea comes out, and the child i’s not putting weight, vomiting, diarrhea, vomiting, diarrhea. Everybody gets concerned. The doctors test this child and find that the child is allergic to all proteins on the planet. So the woman is told to stop breastfeeding. As a result, the child is put on an elemental soy formula, which is terrible. And the parents are told, “You can’t give your child any protein. Just give them some bold carrots or something. And that’s it.” And then, you know, the doctors tell them to look for veganism for the rest of their lives.

So what we do with these babies? I have a growing group of these babies in the world. We have now a support group amongst parents, wonderful mothers, wonderful, just absolute heroes mothers who have healed their own children and now helping hundreds of other babies in the world with this terrible situation.

We start with meat stock with these babies. Lots of protein. But what we’re doing with this meat stock, we’re building a new gut wall for the baby. And until that new gut wall is built, vomiting, diarrhea might continue. The child might continue reacting. But we have to, there is no other path, there is no other way. And this children do recover. They have to stay on the GAPS diet then pretty much for life. For many, many, many years until we’re absolutely sure that the person is healthy and robust. Only then you can try and introduce things which are not allowed on the GAPS diet. But there are now many children in the world who recovered from this condition. This are GAPSters children. And many other health problems. So this is the first year that we talked about.

Now let’s move into the second year of the GAPS children. That is the year when they develop autism, hyperactivity, dyslexia, dyspraxia, diabetes type one, and other learning disabilities and other physical problems. Because that’s usually is the year when the breastfeeding stops and the child is on solids. And the child can digest that food. Their digestive tract is a source of toxicity. How do babies learn? How do children learn how to be a human being in this world? Because they need to learn that sort of thing. They learn through using their senses, their eyes, the ears, their tactile sensitivity, their sense of smell, sense of taste, and other senses. So what does sensory organs do? They collect information from the environment. Just observe babies. They listen to everything. They stare at everybody. They touch everything. They take everything in their mouth. They’re using their sensory organs to collect information from the environment. And then this information is passed to the brain to be processed. And from this processing, the brain learns. Now, “This is mommy. This is daddy. This is a toy. I play with it like this. This is food I eat. These are the children, I copy them.” And that’s how human beings develop. That’s how a baby learns to be a human being.

But in our GAPS children, their brain is clogged with toxicity. That proof of toxicity coming out of the gut gets into the brain of the child and clogs it with toxins. This brain cannot process this information from the sensory organs appropriately. All this information comes into a mush, into a noise in the brain. And depending how much toxicity is in the brain, what kind of toxicity the character with, the child will develop symptoms. If it’s the most severe situation, the child will become autistic. If it’s less severe and there are bits and pieces here and there, the child may become hyperactive or develop attention deficit disorder or dyslexia or dyspraxia or schizophrenia, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, strange fits, strange ticks, and epilepsy.

Epilepsy is a safety valve for the brain. When the brain accumulates too much toxicity and it senses that this toxicity is physically damaging to the tissue of the brain. Remember, these children were born with a perfectly normal brain. This was a perfectly normal brain. But of course, years and years of bombardment of the brain by this toxins will cause physical damage to the brain. And a proportion of these children, the brain develops a cleansing procedure, a safety valve. It sends one electric discharge through or a number of electric charges, and burns the whole lot of toxins out. It cleanses itself. But clinically that manifests itself as an epileptic seizure. We have known that epileptic seizures are cleansing for the brain for the last 200 years from classical psychiatry. There are many descriptions of that and that’s what classical psychiatry understood. So the last thing these children need is another toxin added to the whole load of toxicity in the brain in the form of antibiotic medication. All it does is suppresses the brain activity. So the longer the child is on this medication, the more they are unable to learn and they become – they develop learning disability and they become just couch potatoes. Their personality changes in these children.

What we want is to subtract toxins from the brain. Not to add more. There are dangerous forms of epilepsy. But the child is having several grand mal seizures a day. That’s when the medication is life saving. Because an epileptic seizure can kill a child. But majority of children are not in that category. Majority of children had one seizure and then no seizures for many months. No epileptic activity for many months afterwards. And yet they’re put on medication. My dream is that one day our medical professional will be putting them on the GAPS state. Because I have many, many children around the world who recovered from epilepsy with the GAPS diet. Because what we do with the GAPS diet, the GAPS nutritional protocol will clean the gut, drive out pathogens, reestablish normal harmonious balanced community of microbes in the gut, and we heal and seal the gut wall.

As a result that wave of toxicity coming from the gut stops. And when it stops, the brain cleans itself. Human body has an amazing ability to clean itself. Every cell, every tissue has a cleaner in it, which is very busy and constantly cleaning itself. The headquarters of this cleaning detoxification system is in the liver and departments in every cell of the human body. So the human body and the brain has a beautiful ability to cleanse itself to get rid of toxicity. We just have to stop these toxins from coming in. And in order to do that, we have to heal the gut. Because if your tap in the kitchen is leaking and you have a puddle on the floor ,what do you do first? Do you start mopping the puddle or do you deal with the tap first? It’s a good idea to fix the tap first and then mop the puddle. So by fixing the gut, we’re fixing the tap in the kitchen – the leaky tap. And once the leak stops then we can mop the paddle and be done with the situation.

So as far as the brain is concerned, in my opinion, all mental illness – all of it – schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, addictions, depression, epilepsy, any kind of mental illness, panic attacks, memory problems are GAPS conditions. They’re all coming from the digestive system from my clinical experience, from everything I know, and all learning disabilities and children. So whenever there are any mental symptoms in any person, the first thing we need to do urgently, get on the GAPS diet immediately.

But when this river of toxicity gets to other organs in the body, it will cause disease on those as well. And number one thing that happens in many tissues and organs – and that is a collagen disorder. I call it GAPS collagen disorder. I’m finishing my second GAPS book, the Gut and Physiology book. Hopefully, it will come out next year. If I get enough time to see fit. And I described this condition in there – in that book. What happens? About a third of all protein in the human body is collagen. It’s an elastic protein that holds the human body together, pretty much. It’s made out of fibers, long fibers. The skeleton of your muscle, the skeleton of your bones are made out of collagen. All fissures, all ligaments, capsules of the joints, every joint and all the materials that the joints are made, the cartilage, the synovial fluid, the capsule of the joint, all the ligaments and all the supportive structures are collagen largely. So it is a very, very important part in the human body. The problem with it is that, it is an absolute magnet for toxicity for toxins. This toxic river that is absorbing from the digestive tract of a GAPS person. Many of these toxins are attracted to collagen. They attach themselves to these molecules. And that changes the three dimensional structure of collagen.

Our immune system goes around the body surveying it all the time. What it finds, this change molecules of collagen. It looks at them and says, “You’re not mine. I don’t recognize you as mine. You must be some something foreign that got in.” And initially the immune system would use off the shelf response which is always ready, always there on the shelf, and that is inflammation. It will cause inflammation in that area. What inflammation does, it kills the enemy and cleans the site.  That is its function. It will remove this toxicity. It will clean that place up. So if this influx of toxicity was temporary, and not very heavy, you may get about inflammation somewhere. And inflammation always comes with pain. It’s red, it’s hot, it’s swollen and the function is limited. So that might happen in your knee or your elbow or your thumb or your spine, in your – you’ll get lumbago, you’ll get a backache, back pain. That is a major, major cause of back pain because our spine is a whole collection of tiny little joints. It’s made out of lots and lots of little joints. The spine, lots of collagen.

But if this situation is not temporary, if this toxicity is coming all the time, and the immune system has been using inflammation for many, many days, the immune system will have enough time then to study these changed molecules of collagen and start producing antibodies against them. And you’ve got an autoimmune disease. That’s when your temporary bouts of arthritis turned into rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, or another form of autoimmune arthritis. If this situation happened in your lungs because the lungs are full of collagen, then you may get asthma, you may get obstructive pulmonary disease, or another problem with your lungs. If the situation happens in your heart, and the heart has lots of collagen in it because heart valves are largely collagen. The strings that are attached to the heart walls, the inside lining of the heart has a lot of collagen in it, and the muscle of the heart itself and the capsule of the heart,. Then you can get palpitations and you can get heart problems. So wherever this sort of situation happens, it becomes chronic and there is an autoimmune component as well as inflammation going on in the body.

Many of our GAPS children have that situation pretty much from birth. That is why these children usually have loose weak joints. They are double jointed. They have flat feet. They stumble on a perfectly level floor and hurt themselves all the time. These children, because their joints are loose because the collagen that is holding the joint together is being destroyed by our own immune system by autoimmunity. The [inaudible 01:03:01] has become loose in this person so these children and adults can develop hernias. All our organs inside our bodies are hanging on big sheets of collagen. These are the things that are holding them hanging in the right place. They all sag down quite often. They hang low and these people. And that can cause the problems with the function of these organs. And because our blood vessels are largely made out of collagen, these people get very weak blood vessel walls and they bruise easily.

There are many people with GAPS who say that, “I bruise so easily. I just pick something up and I’ve got a bruise on my hand.” I just have to bump a little bit into something and they get the great big bruise. The wall of your blood vessels is very weak because you have a collagen disorder. That’s what happens in these patients, they are called GAPS collagen disorder because the toxicity is coming out of the digestive system of the person.

Wherever these toxins get you, they will cause disease, neurological illness, multiple sclerosis, neuropathies, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, DM [inaudible 01:04:11] or any other neurological – chronic neurological disorder. Fibromyalgia can be put into that category as well because these people have neuropathies as well.

The skeleton of every peripheral nerve in our body is collagen. And if that collagen inflamed and under autoimmune attack, of course, there will be symptoms. There will be problems. I have many patients with neuropathies who have recovered on the GAPS nutritional protocol.

Energy production in the body also suffers when people have so much toxicity coming out of the gut. The energy in the human body is produced by organelles in every so-called mitochondria, our little energy factories. They’re very effective mitochondria. They produce a lot of energy per unit of glucose or unit of fat that they burn to produce energy. The problem is the process is dirty. The things that shoot out of these mitochondria into the cell are free radicals. This wild oxygen species which can damage a lot of things in the cell. Because this process was designed by Mother Nature over billions of years, the cell has a way of dealing with that situation. It produces antioxidants to deal with this free radicals immediately. It produces lipoic acid, glutathione, vitamin C, and other things, other antioxidants. And the whole thing is ticking nicely.

The problem is, our mitochondria very vulnerable to toxicity coming out of the gut. They get damaged by toxins. And many cells also die. Many cells in the body not only mitochondria but many cells in the body get damaged in the human body. So the energy production starts reducing. The person starts getting fatigue. The person starts getting tired from ordinary or normal activities. They have to rest and pace themselves. And what happens at a certain point in the body? There is a central command that comes from the brain. When the brain senses that enough cells in the body are dying from this toxicity, enough mitochondria being damaged, a central command descend from the brain to shut all mitochondria down. Why does that happen?

And that is the day when the person can’t get out of bed. They become more chair bound at that point. They can breathe. They can just about, you know, live, but they can’t do anything. They can’t function – these people – because there isn’t enough energy.

What happens in this situation? When many cells are dying in the body because of toxicity get destroyed. The human body has to produce lots of baby cells to replace them. Lots and lots. The body becomes broody. It starts producing lots of babies. In order to produce a baby, a cell has to unwrap its genetic material. Its chromosomes which are hidden inside the nucleus of the cell behind a very thick wall. Why it is hidden behind a thick wall? Because our genes, our chromosomes, are extremely vulnerable to free radical damage. And all these free radicals shooting out the mitochondria inside the cell, they can damage our genetic material. When the cell wants to produce a baby, it has to dissolve that wall, make its chromosomes make it inside the cell, divides them into two, build two nuclei, build a wall around those nuclei to protect them, and then divide and produce a baby – produce a baby cell. So while that process is going on, what the cells do? They shut down their mitochondria. They can’t allow them to work. They can’t allow this production of free radicals in the cell.

And while mitochondria are shut down, the cell uses a very old archaic way of production of energy, which comes from evolution, which will allow the cell to divide, will allow it to breathe, but will not allow it to do anything else. It’s archaic. It’s very old. It producers only a little bit of energy that’s not enough to really function to the full capacity. But because the cells divide quite quickly, it only takes a few minutes. As soon as the baby is produced, mitochondria switched on again. And this process worked for us beautifully for thousands of years, possibly millions of years. But what happens when the person is so toxic and so many cells are dying, and so many babies need to be produced? At a certain point, the brain perceives this situation. It keeps a tab on everything going on in the body. And with the central command, it shuts down all mitochondria. And the body starts functioning on that archaic, old way of producing energy in the cytoplasm of the cell. Which will allow you to breathe, to stay alive, but will not allow you to jump out of bed, to make breakfast for your children, to take them to school, to go and work, or do anything else. And this is chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, myalgic encephalomyelitis, and some other conditions where the person suffers from severe fatigue.

Photo by Vladislav Muslakov on Unsplash


So how do we help these people? What do we need to do? It’s toxicity that’s killing them. And where is that leaky tap where toxicity is coming from? The gut. We need to fix that tap first. We need to fix the gut first. We need to be on the GAPS diet for many, many years. Sometimes for the rest of the person’s life. Because this is a very serious situation. Once we fix the gut and that waive of toxicity stops, the leaky tap is fixed. Then the body moves up the puddle on the floor. Removes the toxicity. And as the toxins are being removed from the body, the body becomes cleaner and cleaner. At a certain point the brain perceives that situation and it takes off that command, it switches on the mitochondria. And that’s a beautiful day usually for the person because they wake up in the morning and they’ve got enough energy to actually get out of bed and maybe go and brush their teeth, you know,  or brush their hair, or have a shower, or something else like that. The next day, a little bit more energy. Next week a bit more energy. And gradually they regain their normal energy production.

But in order to get to that point, to the point of actually producing energy, first we need to spend time on healing the gut. And that can take a year or a couple of years, it can take time, depending how severe the situation is in the human body. Generally speaking, with all of this severe chronic conditions, the disease has been building up and developing in a person in less. It’s like an onion this whole disease. First, the first layer was developed. And then the second layer developed on top of that. And then another layer. And the healing will go in the reverse order. The body will decide what’s the priority number one, then what’s the priority number two, was the priority number three. And the body has to deal with the priority number one first until it’s done. Only then the body can have a little break, a little respite. And that’s the time when the person feels really well. They really feel well. And then the body decides it’s good enough resources. Enough strength now to attack the layer number two, the second priority. And that’s when new symptoms develop. That’s when the person feels ill again.

Don’t be disheartened if you were on the GAPS nutritional protocol for a year and you got better, much, much better. However, not all your health problems are gone yet. And then suddenly you feel worse again. Your body got to the second layer of the onion. It’s dealing with another second priority. And it could not deal with it before because it had to do with the first priority first. And it’s your body that is doing the healing. The human body has a wonderful ability to heal itself. All the healing mechanisms are programmed into our body. All we have to do is allow the body to do that work without us attacking it with clever inventions, pharmaceuticals or anything else.

Just let the body work and give it all the resources. Give it the right food. Give it enough rest. Give it a positive mental attitude. Give it, maybe, meditation. Give it fresh air. Give it a nice gentle walk in the fresh air every day. And loving, nurturing environment. We each live [inaudible 01:12:44]. You need to have love around you. People who are positive and loving and supportive. All those aspects are important for healing for the human body.

The diet is a huge subject. We probably don’t have time for it in this interview. It’s described in great detail in my book, the Gut And Psychology Syndrome Book. And it’s also described in great detail on my website gaps.me. The diet, how to implement it. And GAPS nutritional protocol is not just a diet. It also has some supplements in it. And it has lifestyle changes. So it’s a problem. So the whole program needs to be done by the person.



[1:13:24] Ashley James: When you first did it with your son when he was three years old and he was diagnosed with autism and you started as we’ve started to really like dive into this for him and do this, the GAPS diet with him, what kind of changes did you see?



[01:13:40] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: He’s now an adult. He’s 26 years old now. And he’s fully recovered. He’s leading a normal life. So he was my first teacher. In fact, I believe that children come to us as teachers. We are just teaching them to mind and mundane things you know, how to dress, how to walk, how to drive and so on. While they teach us the most profound universal truths. They make us better human beings. They make us grow and force us to grow. So he was my biggest teacher in my life. And we started the diet when he was three. And by the age of five, he went to the mainstream school with support. About 95% of success we have achieved in the first two years. And then the rest, 5% of the healing, happened over the next five or six years gradually. They were the most difficult bits, obviously, to get rid of.

Apart from the GAPS nutritional protocol, we did the ABA program, Applied Behavior Analysis. And I’m a great advocate of this protocol of this program. Because what happens with autistic children, children learn certain skills at a certain age. That’s how our brain is programmed. From the moment of birth, from the moment of conception, we follow a certain program that has been put in, I don’t know when, I don’t know by who. Because it’s not just genetic. It’s not just genes. Far from it. So it’s a divine extremely complex problem. And as a child is born, they have to learn certain skills at a certain age. That’s when the program that you learn that. A certain window of opportunity. We have to learn to walk around the age of one. We have to learn to speak around the age of two. Then in the following years, we’ll learn syntaxes and grammar. And finally, of the language and social skills and the rest of it. And if the child missed that window of opportunity of learning that skill, they may not learn that skill themselves later on. You have to teach it. And you have to teach it. You have to break that skill into the tiniest possible steps and teach them systematically starting with the simple most fundamental step until that’s mastered. Then build on that. The second step then build on that. The third step. And the only problem that I know that is thorough like that, like a fine tooth comb is the Applied Behavior Analysis. There are other programs out there. But it’s only this protocol that, in my experience, produces the right results with autistic children.

So with these children, it isn’t enough to just fix the body. We have to teach them all the skills that they’ve missed. That is why the younger the child is when we put them on the GAPS nutritional protocol, the quicker they recover and the more fully they recover. Because first of all, the brain wasn’t bombarded that long with toxicity to cause physical damage to it. And secondly, because the child missed less on its development, less windows of opportunity have been missed by the child. It’s easier for them to catch up. Easier for them to fill those gaps. And that usually, you know, children recover fully up to the age of four-and-a-half, maybe maximum five. It’s very individual, obviously, in every child. Older than that, what usually remains? Some percent of it remains. Though I did have some cases where children recovered remarkably well,  95%, 90%, which is most grown. There was just some idiosyncrasies left, some quirks left maybe. But the child could function and live in this world and be a full member of the human society.

So it depends. It’s very individual. But at any age of autism, I will do the GAPS nutritional protocol. I will put these children and adults on the diet for the rest of their life. I used to say that children can come off the diet at some point. Now, with all the experience that I have accumulated I recommend everyone autistic child to stay on the diet strictly for the rest of their life. When they fully recovered occasionally, when you go on holiday, maybe you can cheat a little bit. But then when you’re back home back, back to normal, back to the GAPS diet because that would prevent any illnesses, that will prevent any relapses, that will prevent any regressions and any problems whatsoever. And just make this person very healthy and well and functioning. Functioning on the top of their capacity and developing on the top of their capacity.

So what I recommend to all parents, when something is wrong with your child, don’t wait for the diagnostic label. The label will do nothing for your child. It will not help in any possible way. And doctors can take a very long time – an awful long time to give you a diagnosis. Your parents, in your heart you know something’s wrong. You know something’s not quite right with your child. Start the GAPS nutritional protocol. Start the GAPS diet immediately. And chances are, in a few weeks there will be no need for any diagnostic label. If you’ve got an autistic child who is two or two-and-a-half, a few weeks thereof, you don’t even need to do ABA with them. They’re learning themselves. They’re diverting themselves. They’re off. They’re developing. Maybe we’ll need to work a little bit on some skills but not as intensively as the ABA requires.

So the younger the child is, it’s particularly good to start it when the child is 18 months old. You know, because even at 18 months old with autistic children, you already know something’s wrong. Something’s not quite working. The eye contact is not there. He’s not responding to his name. He’s not pointing. He’s not saying anything. He’s not understanding language. Not understanding commands. It’s clear, something’s not quite right with that child. Start the GAPS diet and chances are you will not needing a diagnostic label and you will not need to do anything else with that child.

Children with hyperactivity, with dyslexia, dyspraxia, and other learning disabilities do very well on the GAPS nutritional protocol with these children. Because there isn’t the same cognitive deficit in the child. He may not need to do any special teaching problem with the child. You just put the physical body right, clean up the brain, allow the brain to function the way it’s supposed to, and the child will be off developing, developing normally the way the child should develop.



[1:20:21] Ashley James: Brilliant. Now, I know in your book you have a chapter dedicated to children that are picky eaters, fussy eaters. Because I know parents are like, “Well, how am I going to get my kids to do this?” So I know that that’s in the book. I definitely encourage listeners to get the book.



[1:20:37] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Absolutely.  Absolutely. Fussy eating is a normal symptom on GAPS. It is a part and parcel of GAPS. What happens with these children? The food that they’re eating is converted into millions of toxic substances by the abnormal gut flora. But this microbes in the gut are clever. Part of that toxicity, they make in the form of endorphins. Chemicals that give the brain the pleasure signal. So the brain wants more. So your little adorable darling is a drug addict. The drug is produced in the gut by the abnormal gut flora for this child. So the child is trapped in the typical drug addiction, vicious cycle, when they love and want and limit their diet to the very foods that hurt them, damage their brain, and damage them, and caused their disorder. So if any of you ever read about how difficult it is to try to treat a drug addict, you would realize just how difficult it is to treat them. Your child is going to fight you every step on the way. Pulling a drug addict out of that vicious cycle is hard work. The parents must be united on this issue. The mommy and daddy, grandparents, grandmothers in particular, need to be united on this issue. It takes two adults in the first week or two to break the child out of that vicious cycle. And the child will fight you every step of the way. Be prepared for that. So you have to be strong. You have to stand there like a rock. And that grandma must be like a rock or a daddy or any other member of the family that is helping you.

So what we do, we sit the child down. We make that beautiful meat stock with the chicken or lamb or beef or anything else. And we sit the child down. One adult is standing behind the chair with a big smile on his face, making sure the child cannot leave the situation. The child cannot jump up and run away from the table. Just hold him down gently, nicely, with a smile. The mother is feeding. I will start with a small achievable target, one teaspoon of this meat stock for a reward.

For any child that is verbal and for whom any nonfood reward works, be it a computer game or a favorite video or a favorite book or a favorite game or horses around the house or peekaboo, whatever, whatever works for this particular child, use that as a reward. To swallow that one meaty little teaspoon of the meat stock. As soon as the child swallowed it, we’ll give the child the reward. But most importantly, this is reward has to come with over exaggerated praise from the parents. The parents to explode in happiness. Then you should give the child a complete circus performance in happiness. Throw him up in the air, kiss him, hug him, tickle him, whatever works and then let them go. Let them leave the situation. Let them wander around, play, whatever he wants for five minutes. After five minutes back to that chair, we sit down again, another teaspoon. And we work like that all day until the teaspoon is not a problem anymore wit the child. Quite often children love the circus from the parents so much. It’s so nice for them to have the circus. They will do just for that without any rules. That’s a reward enough for them. The circus from the parents, they always exaggerated praise.

When one teaspoon is not the problem anymore, the child just swallows it and gets the circus and gets the reward, we want two teaspoons for the same reward. And then three teaspoons. And then push and push and push more and more and more until the child has a whole bowl of this stock. And then we start adding that chicken to that stock. And then we start adding vegetables and the rest is history. We just keep working at it and your fussy eater that wouldn’t be anything but from his biscuits or his sweets or whatever it is, in a in a week will be eating everything including liver, fish soup, you know, anything. Absolutely.

Photo by Tanaphong Toochinda on Unsplash


[1:24:37] Ashley James: I love it. Now, what if the child or the adult is allergic to some of the foods on the GAPS diet. My son who – I mean I am absolutely going to put him on the GAPS diet starting today. He has asthma. Definitely induced by what he’s allergic to. He’s allergic to dust mites and there’s about seven foods he’s allergic to. We’re gluten free, dairy free household from birth. And he eats organic and he eats really clean. And so we’ve never – we couldn’t figure out why. And he had colic as a baby. And I couldn’t produce enough breast milk. So I got donated breast milk from as many mothers as I could. And when we ran out, we supplemented with formula but he had colic. Everything you said in this interview is exactly what my son’s been going through. And now here he is, four-and-a-half years old. He has asthma. If he’s a eats avocado or egg or has an exposure to dairy – because we’re allergic – the whole family is allergic to dairy – and garlic, fish, any kind of fish will throw him into an asthmatic attack and his histamines through the roof. So these foods that are very healthy foods, very healing foods, his body’s reacting to. So what do you tell parents when they want to put their child on the GAPS diet but they are allergic to some of these foods?



[1:25:59] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: The only allergy that we truly respect is anaphylactic typology, because that’s life threatening. It’s very, very dangerous. Or other allergies are due to the leaky gut. To that porous leaky gut wall. Obviously, if there is no anaphylactic reaction, let’s say, to dairy. And the only dairy that we use are well-fermented dairy that were ferment at home for 24 hours. When you ferment the milk and the milk is raw, it’s essential [inaudible 01:26:24]. It’s very, very important. When the fermented milk for 24 hours is predigested, the microbes in the milk they eat all the lactose because microbes like eating sugars, so that is a truly lactose free product. All the proteins, casein, the albumins, and other proteins are predigested, broken down in this product. So it is a very different product from milk, from any dairy that you bought or from a yogurt or [inaudible 01:26:53] that you bought in the supermarket, in the shop. When you fermented at home for 24 hours, it’s a very different product.

And with all of this, if there is something that your child reacts to, initially avoid these things. Because there’s enough other foods in the diet to focus upon. But then gradually try them. And first start with the ones which do not cause any anaphylactic reaction. Obviously, anaphylactic reactions need to be respected for quite a bit. But in about a year or so, the immune system will rebalance itself. We will nourish the immune system, nurture it, it will rebalance itself. It will be a completely different immune system in the child. And you may be surprised to find that when you try a tiny, tiny amount of the food that the child had an anaphylactic reaction to, there is no reaction anymore.

I had a number of children who recovered peanut allergy. Yes. Anaphylactic reactions disappear. They can also be healed. Because they obsolete sort of information that the body remembers. But the body recovers and it rebuilds itself and the immune system is very different in this children. So it is possible to recover even from those. But the reactions that non-anaphylactic, they’re all due to the leaky gut. Generally speaking, we ignore them. We ignore them and we focus on healing and rebuilding the gut wall.



[1:28:17] Ashley James: What about collagen powder? This is a big fad right now. Getting powdered bone broth and powdered collagen supplements. What do you think about those?



[1:28:30] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: I don’t. I do not like supplements, particularly. The only supplements we use in the GAPS nutritional protocol, [inaudible 01:28:36]. So described in my book. The supplement industry is a multibillion industry and they will all try to convince you that you need to take the supplement for the rest of your life and you can’t live without it. This meat stock that they’re making with joints and bones of animals will provide you in one bowl of soup with a whole bottle of those capsules of collagen.

Large amounts and it is natural and it is fresh and it is properly digestible. And it will it will do what it’s supposed to do in the body. And it comes with all the cofactors.



[1:29:14] Ashley James: I have a technical question about cooking. The chicken, for example, let’s say people are starting phase one with the whole chicken. Instead of slowly simmering it on the stove for several hours, what about using the Instant Pot? The electric pressure cooker –



[1:29:31] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: No, I don’t recommend that.



[1:29:33] Ashley James: You don’t recommend that. So you recommend just traditional. The old way. We got to do it the way grandma taught us.



[1:29:38] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Exactly. It’s two hours – for a chicken, it’s two hours. It’s not that long. You just put the whole chicken. It’s best to get also the neck, the head, the feet of the chicken. That would be wonderful. The giblets will be great to put in there. The whole chicken and about three liters of water to it, some salt, and simmer it for a couple of hours until the chicken is soft. You can eat that chicken. It’s delicious. And the stock will be clear absolutely delicious. Every child loves it once they’ve tasted it.



[1:30:09] Ashley James: And you don’t add any seasonings when you start. It’s just the chicken?



[1:30:13] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Just the salt. Just the chicken and the salt. And the salt needs to be natural. Himalayan Crystal Salt or Celtic salt, you know, natural unprocessed salt which has all the minerals in it. Nothing has been taken out of that salt. Completely natural. You can add some vegetables to eat at the beginning if you want to. You can add a whole onion, you can add the carrot to it if you want you to, to make that stock richer. Some people do that.



[1:30:46] Ashley James: Have you seen people heal things like diabetes, heart disease or issues of the gut like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or Candida with this diet?



[1:30:54] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Absolutely. All those gut. I have written a book called Put Your Heart In Your Mouth. What really causes heart disease? What I explain what causes heart disease, because it’s not cholesterol and not animal fats the cause heart disease. That is all based on a faulty hypothesis, which has been proposed in 1953. And since then it was proven to be completely wrong, by solid, honest science. The problem is that, while the science was working on this hypothesis, a very powerful and very wealthy, commercial, and political machine grew based on this hypothesis. And it doesn’t allow it to die. It’s the machine that educates all the public.

So in that book, I explained the role of cholesterol, the role of the fats in the body. Cholesterol is something that we cannot live without. It’s one of the most essential molecules for every tissue, every cell in the human body, particularly for the brain, particularly for our hormonal system, for our adrenal, and for our immune system. It’s an absolutely essential molecule. That is why the human body has wonderful abilities to manufacture its own cholesterol. The headquarters of this is in the liver. The liver has a factory in it which manufactures cholesterol. And it is the liver that maintains the level of cholesterol in the blood of the person. And the liver works in connection with every cell, every tissue in the body. No healing, for example, can happen in the human body without involvement of large amounts of cholesterol and fats. Saturated fats in particular. Because they give stability to the cells of the human body. So the cell membrane, in particular. About 40% of our brain tissue is cholesterol. The other 40% is saturated fat. This structural elements of the human body.

So when there is any damage in the human body, maybe you had an operation or you’ve been to the dentist or you’ve hurt yourself, you have a trauma, something happened to you, healing has to happen. When you just went through a stressful period of time, stress causes a lot of damage in our tissues in the human body. No healing or repair can happen in the body without  large amounts of cholesterol and animal fats and proper fats. So any damaged tissue in the body sends a signal to the liver saying, “I need cholesterol. I need fats.” So the liver starts that factory inside itself. It manufactures cholesterol. It manufacturers triglycerides. These fats, packages them appropriately. Because these are fat soluble things. Our blood is water based. You can’t put fat soluble things into the water without packaging them appropriately. So cholesterol is packaged into LDLs, low density labor, proteins. And fats are packaged also into other [inaudible 01:33:37]. And these shuttles deliver this vital substances to the place of damage to heal it. That’s the healing. This is the most healing substances in the world.

And what do our doctors test? They test for these things in the blood and say, “Well, they’re high” or whatever. There are no really high or low standards of cholesterol. Whatever level of cholesterol is in your blood is the right level for you in that amount. It depends on what your body is doing. Because your body might be healing something, your body might be under stress, every stress hormones in the body is made from cholesterol. So when we’re under stress, stress hormones are required to deal with that stress. Your adrenal will send a signal to the liver, “I need cholesterol.” The liver will get into gear, produce it, package it, put it in the blood. Your blood will be delivering that cholesterol to adrenal and they’ll be converting it into stress hormones for you to cope with the stressful situation. So your blood cholesterol will be high. If you interfere with that, you will not be able to cope with stress. You will have a breakdown without these hormones. And many people finish up in that situation. There is no way of reducing blood cholesterol to a diet. That’s been proven in hundreds of studies. No way that diet has – you know, you can eat no cholesterol or no fat at all, your liver will just have to work harder to manufacture more. You’re not providing any help to your body at all.

And the only way to reduce blood cholesterol is to break that factor in the liver. And that’s what anti cholesterol pills do. That’s what they’re designed to do, to break that factory in your liver so it cannot produce cholesterol. That is why these drugs cause so many serious side effects. The major part of Alzheimer’s epidemic is due to Statin, the cholesterol pills. The hospital infection problem is due to Statin because the immune system cannot function without large amounts of cholesterol. It cannot. And what do hospitals do? Every person over 40, as soon as they arrived to the hospital, they’re put on a Statin. That’s a routine prescription. They don’t even measure blood cholesterol anymore.  They just put people on Statin straightaway. And that impairs their immune function. They’re unable to fight any infections. So people get infections in the hospitals. You get hospital infections as a result. There are many – memory loss is due to ubiquitous description of this medication.

So please read that book to understand what fat and cholesterol do. GAPS diet is very rich in cholesterol and in animal fats. Because when we analyze human fat, about 50% of your dry weight is fat. The other 50% of your dry weight protein in the human body. About 70% water. So we talk about the dry weight. So fat is a structural element of the human body, 50% of you is made out of it. So fats are not optional for humans. And when we analyze human fat in the laboratory, we find that in its biochemical structure, it’s very similar to fats in lamb, beef, pork, goose, duck, butter.

Plants have lots of fats in them but their biochemical structure is very different. It’s inappropriate for our fats for building our fats in our human’s body. They’re polyunsaturated. We need a little bit of polyunsaturated fats for the human body, omega fats, omega 3, 6, 7, 9 and so on. But we need them in tiny, tiny amounts. So when you eat enough, if you eat a fresh salad or you eat ed a handful of fresh nuts or oily seeds, you’ll get enough. Although you don’t need much of them.

The bulk of fat consumption has to come from animal foods. From animal fats for the human body. Because these are the only fats that are appropriate for our human physiology. They are structural. And they are functional for us as well. That is why GAPS nutritional protocol, GAPS diet is rich in animal fats.

The same with protein, when they look at the protein in the human body and analyze it in the laboratory, we’ll find that in its biochemical composition is very similar to proteins in meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. Plants are full of proteins. The most famous one is gluten. And the more research gluten, the more we realize nobody can digest it. No human being on this planet can digest gluten. It damages everybody. It’s just people don’t connect their piece of beloved bread with their arthritis or their migraines or their skin rash or whatever, psoriasis or whatever. People don’t want to connect because bread is addictive.

And this is just one protein that we’ve researched. Well, there are many, many other proteins in plants and all of them are indigestible for the human digestive system. This biochemical structure is very difficult for us to digest. And amino acid composition in this protein is inappropriate for building our protein or human protein. [Inaudible 01:38:37] amino acids are in excess and the amino acids are in deficit.

And that leads us to another subject here on vegetarianism. We live in a world of nutritional propaganda. And the latest fashion and propaganda promoted by all the governments in the West is that we all should become vegetarian and even vegan. This propaganda is political. It comes from the commercial sector of the world, which will gain huge profits if large parts of humanity become vegetarian and vegan. That is the agrochemical complex. And that’s where the propaganda originates from this sort of thing.

Plants are indigestible for the human digestive system. They do not feed us. They’re largely cleanses. The foods that feed the human body are animal foods, meat, fish, eggs, and dairy. And we discussed the protein and the fats in them that only animal protein and only animal fat are appropriate for building our fat and our protein. The very structure, the physical structure of the human body.

But there’s another aspect to it and that is the way the human digestive system has been designed. The scientific fact is that the only thing on our planet that can digest plants – that can truly digest plants, the only things, are microbes. And this is the fun that Mother Nature used in designing the digestive system of herbivorous animals, cows, goats, sheep, antelope, deer, giraffe, and so on. In order for these animals to digest the plants that they live on, it gave them a very special digestive system called rumen. A cow, the big belly of a cow, a large part of it is rumen. It’s a huge four chamber stomach. Four stomachs, really. And these four stomachs are full of microbes. The bulk of our gut flora lives in that rumen. And it’s these microbes which digest the grass for her. The cow herself is unable to digest grass. It’s the microbes that do the work for her. And then once they’ve digested all that grass, it’s passed into the intestines where the bulk of absorption happens. That’s where all these digestive elements then absorb.

We, human beings, do not have a rumen. We have a small stomach which produces hydrochloric acid, pepsin, and some other things. And the only things – the only food that these

stomach juices are able to digest are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. That’s a simple chemical fact. And if a human stomach is healthy because virtually no microbes in it, the microbial population is very, very sparse. Because hydrochloric acid just kills them. It creates a very, very hostile environment for any kind of microbes to survive in there. Because in a healthy stomach and a healthy person, when they’re hungry, the pH can be below one. It’s extremely acidic. It will kill any kind of microbes. Without microbes, we can’t digest bones.

So the only things that truly digest in a human stomach are meat, fish, eggs and dairy. Plants just sit there waiting for their turn. Not much digestion happens in plants. And then the whole thing gets passed into the several meters of intestines where absorption of food happens. And the only things that can be absorbed are the ones that get properly digested higher up in the stomach. And that is meat, fish, eggs and dairy. So in order to build – to feed the human body, the physical structure of our bodies, we need animal foods. The plants go through that whole intestines. They contribute some vitamins. They contribute some minerals. They contribute some phytonutrients. But they cannot contribute the bulk for building our physical structure, the protein and the fat. They cannot contribute those because they’re indigestible and they’re inappropriate for our physiology. And then the plants land in our bowel at the end of our digestive system, which is the equivalent of the rumen in the cow. That’s where the bulk of our gut flora lives.  And these microbes then digest the plant matter, break it down a little bit, give us some support.

But the difference between us and the cow is that her rumen is at the beginning of her digestive system. Where the grass is properly digested before it’s passed into the absorptive part of the digestive tract. In us human beings, our rumen is at the end of our digestive system. It’s too late now. The bulk of absorption already happened higher up. That is why we human beings derive our feeding and building nutrients from animal foods. So what do we eat plants for then? Plants are powerful cleansers, particularly when we eat them raw. They cannot build the human body to any degree but they keep it clean on the inside. They have antioxidants, phenols, phytonutrients, all kinds of things in there, which absorb and which keep us clean on the inside. That is why we eat plants.

Traditional cultures around the world through the research of Wesley Price and some other researchers who traveled around the world and studied traditional cultures, they all knew this fact. That is why they will spend extra effort on obtaining meat and fish and collecting eggs and milking animals. And they learned that plants don’t feed them, really, to any large degree. So they developed methods of making plants a little bit more digestible. And the major way they did it was fermentation.

Nontraditional culture would even dream of eating grains, for example, any kind of grain or beans without fermenting them first – thoroughly fermenting them. What are we doing with fermentation or [inaudible 01:44:36]? You know, some cultures [inaudible 01:44:38]. What do we do? We employ microbes to digest that plant for us before we put it into our digestive system. We’re doing exactly what the cow does in her rumen. It’s just that nature has already programmed that in the cow. Well, we don’t have a rumen. So that needs to be understood.

So it is possible to be a healthy vegetarians long as the person continues eating some animal foods to sustain the physical structure of their body. As long as the person eats plenty of eggs and plenty of high fat and full fat dairy every day, maybe fish occasionally, and maybe meat occasion. In cultures like that, traditional cultures exist in India where people – why do you think the cow is a sacred animal in India? Because they know that without a cow, they will perish, these cultures. She gives them milk, cheese, ghee, butter, cheese, you know, clean. And that sustain them. And also in India, all of these vegetarian cultures, they will have chickens and ducks and they have plenty of eggs. That’s where the feeding comes for them. And they’re not vegetarians by choice these people. The vegetarian is out of necessity, out of poverty. Because they didn’t have access to meat.  There are so many people in India. India has always been very densely populated. If they start eating their animals, they’ll probably eat them all in two weeks or something like that. So they had to – but when they get a chance to eat meat, they don’t say no to it. Or when they get the chance to get fish, they also cherish it and would eat it.

The western style veganism, the religious evangelical veganism, came with the books of Nathan Pritikin in the 1930s to India and created some following in India. But traditional Indians who are vegetarians, they are vegetarians out of necessity, out of poverty. Veganism is not a diet. It is a form of fasting. You’re not feeding your body to any degree. You’re cleansing, cleansing, and cleansing, and cleansing, and cleansing. Many people in our modern world are very toxic. They couldn’t do with a period of cleansing. And these are the people who when they go on a vegan regimen, they start feeling better quite soon. In the first few weeks, they feel so much better. Because a less toxic body feels much better than a toxic one. And also the removal the process junk, they remove the flour and the sugar, the bread, the pasta, and the cakes, and the biscuits, and the sugar. And any person who removes that feels better immediately. Not because of what they’re eating but because of what they’re not eating anymore. They feel better. And this is the time when they usually write the evangelical books and trying to convince everybody to become a leader.

But at a certain point, the body will finish cleansing and it will become hungry. It will give you a signal, “I finished cleansing. Now, feed me.” And the way the body will give that signal is by giving you a desire for a piece of meat, for roasted chicken, for a pot of green, for a piece of cheese, or something else like that. The problem is many vegans in our modern world follow this regimen for emotional reasons, political reasons, religious, ethical reasons and so on. They don’t listen to their body. They override that signal. They force their body to continue cleansing when the body really needs feeding. And that is when the body has no choice but to start cannibalizing less important tissues to feed more important issues, such as muscle. That’s when they start losing muscle, these people. Because the body breaks down muscle to feed the heart, the liver, the lungs, the digestive system, the brain, the more important organs than the muscle. And the person eventually develops [inaudible 01:48:24] degenerative disease. If the person pushes themselves long enough to veganism. So the veganism can be used as a cleansing fast, as a fasting procedure. But it must never be used as a long term lifestyle. We need animal foods as human beings.

I have many anorexic girls in my clinic and some anorexic boys as well. And what I discovered very quickly that more than 90% of these kids became anorexic because of misguided veganism and vegetarianism. Misguided vegetarianism has become a major cause of mental illness amongst our young people. Many youngsters destroy themselves through this propaganda, through this idea. And that spurred me into researching this subject thoroughly. And very quickly, I’ve discovered that there are no scientific studies we can really trust in this area.  All of them have been conducted by pro-vegan and pro-vegetarian [inaudible 01:49:22] manipulates it.

And the data has been specially analyzed. None of them can be trusted. They’re completely untrustworthy, all of these studies. Particularly the China study. The China study has been criticized very heavily already by many people. There are books written about it. Do not trust it. It’s a lie upon lie upon lie. And once I’ve discovered that, I had no choice but to go to basic sciences of biochemistry, of human physiology, of zoology, of animal physiology, anatomy, and clinical experience. My own clinical experience and clinical experience of other doctors. And based on all that research, I have written a book called Vegetarianism Explained. It came out in 2017. So for all those people who are really interested in this subject, please read that book. It will explain to you all the ins and outs of it so that you don’t get into trouble. It is easy to destroy your health and it’s not so easy to rebuild it. I know many recovering vegans and it takes many, many years to get even halfway to healing and rebuilding your body after several years of veganism.

Photo by Vegan Liftz on Unsplash


[1:50:34] Ashley James: I’ve recently finished reading a book called the Metabolic Typing Diet. And in the beginning of the book, this doctor shares a story of his mentor who has since passed, was a dentist back in the 50s.



[1:50:51] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Yeah. Donald Kelly. Yeah, I’ve read that.



[1:50:53] Ashley James: Right. He had a really large pancreatic tumor that was sticking out of his gut. Everyone could see it. And the doctor said, “Go home and get ready to die.” And his mom said, “No. You are going to eat vegan.” Well, they did haven’t a word for it back then. “You’re going to eat fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds and greens and that’s it. We’re going to get you on a vegan diet.” And within months, his pancreatic cancer had shrunk and eventually went away. And so he became a total cheerleader for this diet. And soon, because it was a small town, all the people are coming to him not for dental health but for diet health. And so he put everyone on this diet. Many people saw huge changes, wonderful healings. But there’d be a percentage – a  small percentage of people that would get worse. And he couldn’t figure it out.

Until one day his wife – and this is back in the 50s so, like, they didn’t have many regulations around chemicals. But she was exposed to paint fumes that were toxic and of course disrupted her liver and her mitochondria and everything. And she was bedridden and almost comatose. She was within days of dying, basically. Her body had shut down. And he tried giving her vegetables and fruit and nuts and he was trying to basically put her on the diet that healed her cancer and she got even worse and practically fell into a coma. And so he did the last thing he could possibly think of, “What’s the last thing I haven’t fed my wife is meat.” And he boiled some beef and started feeding her little spoonful’s and she started to get better. And within a day, she was sitting up in bed and he scratched his head and thought, “This is crazy. How come I cured my cancer with no meat? But 100% meat is what helped my wife get better.”

And so he basically sold his practice. Moved to Washington from Texas. And dedicated the rest of his life to studying diets and figuring out why is it that some people can heal eating this way and other people get worse and some people can heal this way. And that’s the big crux of it, is when do we do the GAPS diet? When do we do a vegan cleanse or raw vegan cleanse? When do we do a Paleo diet? When do we do these things to heal certain ailments?



[1:53:20] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Yes, of course. Every human being is unique. One size fits all doesn’t work. Every human being is unique. And depending if your predecessors were Eskimos or from Scandinavia or not somewhere, chances are you don’t need to eat lots of meat and fish and fat. But if your predecessors come maybe from some tropical areas of the world or Mediterranean basin, then you need to eat more carbohydrates. So indeed, every human being is unique. And that’s what this book on metabolic typing tries to assess and has a large questionnaire to help people to assess that.

And what it basically has created, that protein type people, carbohydrate type people. But the majority of people are in the middle somewhere. We’re all mix type. Most of us are mixed type. The only way for us human beings to really know what we need is to get back in touch with human with our body intelligence. Because it is your own body that is keeping lots of checks and balances up in the air every minute of your existence. Depending on what you do and depending on the season, on the weather, on your stress level, your age, and in women depending on the menstrual cycle, wherever you are in the menstrual cycle, depending on all these factors and parameters, your body needs a certain set of nutrients. And it is unique to you.

And the only way the body can let you know what it needs at any particular moment is by giving you desire for a particular food, which you must listen to. And then it’s essential for us human beings to smell before we eat and to taste. And then listen to our insights and our internal organs which will give us a feedback after we’ve eaten it, does this sit well or doesn’t it sit well. And every human being is unique and every day is unique and what satisfied you for breakfast may be repulsive for lunch and vice versa with the dinner. I have a whole – in the book Vegetarianism Explained, I have a whole chapter which is called One Man’s Meat Is Another Man’s Poison. What I explained to people how to get back in touch with your inner body intelligence. So you can feed yourself properly on a daily basis.

Because one day you wake up, depending on the weather, on your hormonal metabolism today, on what you have to do, whether you’re resting on holiday, whether you’ve got an exam coming at lunchtime, or something else, you may devour a full English breakfast. The next day you wake up, you don’t feel like a full English breakfast. You just – a yogurt and an apple will do. But later on – every time your body will give you a signal what it needs right now. And make no mistake, the human body knows the composition of foods on this planet. So if it needs, for example, so much protein, so much fat, so much B12, so much zinc right now, how can your body give you all that information? And even if the body knew how to give you that information, how are you going to go around accomplishing those proportions?

Well, the human body is kind,  nature is kind. It doesn’t ask us to do anything so complicated. It gave us tastes, it gave us senses, the sense of desire for a particular food at a particular moment. So whenever you have a moment to eat and you feel a bit hungry, ask yourself a simple question, “What would I kill for right now?” The answer will pop into your head immediately. And that food will smell divine, taste divine, and it will satisfy you. But after eating that food, you will not be looking for anything else, not snacking, not kind of still feeling unsatisfied. You can forget about the food for a while and go into something else. But if you feed yourself according to some book or some guru or something else, then you are you are likely to be going against your own body and what your body needs at that moment. And as I say, you need change every hour, every minute, all the time. It depends. It’s very, very unique. So no clever doctor and no laboratory and no clever book can ever design what you need to have for breakfast, what do you have for lunch, what you need to have for dinner, what you need to have in between, or whether you should have dinner at all, or whether you should have lunch at all, or not. Only your body knows that. And you need to get back in touch with it. Listen to it. Respect it. And do what it asks you to do. And then you’ll be fine. And I explained that in that article, please read that article.



[1:58:08] Ashley James: I’ll make sure that that is linked in the show notes. You brought up when to eat and sometimes not to eat. That’s an interesting concept because what’s really popular now is the idea of intermittent fasting where we don’t eat until, like, 10:00 a.m. Your book, I believe says, to not eat breakfast until 9:30. That can be very healthy for some people. What about people that wake up first thing in the morning ravished with hunger or maybe they have diabetes and they want to eat earlier, should they listen to their body or should they try to extend that fasting window to 9:30 or 10:00?



[1:58:47] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Intermittent fasting, it’s another fashion. It will pass. There are lots of fashions in nutrition. We have many fashions and now is the fashion for vegetarianism and intermittent fasting. It will pass. There will be other fashions coming in.

Listen to your body. Listen to your body on a daily basis. If you’re not hungry, despite the fact that the member of the family laid a huge dinner on the table, you don’t have to eat now. Listen to your body because you can burn yourself without food. And then it will not digest well and it will only cause disease. It will only cause problems in your body. Eat when you’re hungry. That’s right. Listen to your body. Your body is the expert. Not the book, nothing.

So if you woke up in the morning and you are, obviously, hungry, of course, have a full breakfast and ask yourself what you desire. Because it takes time for people to recover because processed carbohydrates that everybody’s lives on in the world – in the Western world in particular – are addictive. Sugar is the number one addictive substance in the world. The second most addictive substance is wheat flour. Particularly, modern commercial varieties of wheat which are 80 times higher gluten in them. So there’s highly addictive substances. And a lot of humanity is addicted to them. That is why they crave bread and they crave sugar and they drink soft drinks and so on. But if you get back in touch with your body intelligence – with your inner body intelligence, you will need to gradually distinguish is this an addiction or is this what my body really asks for?


[2:00:32] Ashley James: I love it. Yeah, we are addicted to those hyperpalatable foods, the salt, the oil, and the sugar. They mix them together and it becomes this wonderful concoction that makes the brain go crazy for it. So when we first start out asking what do we want, the brain is like, “I want pizza” because the brain wants its crack. It wants its drug. And so we have to heal the gut and start to calm down our senses and think about what is my body say it really wants. Not what do I -what drug of choice do I want? What hyperpalatable highly processed food do I want? It’s what my body really wants to nourish it and start to listen to that. I love it.

I could talk to you for hours. It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show. And I really, really would love to have you back especially after you publish your next book, which I hope that you get lots of time to be able to finish it. Because we’re excited to absorb your latest book. And of course all the links to all your books are going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at learntruehealth.com.

To wrap up today’s interview, is there anything you’d like to say to the listeners to complete the interview? Anything left unsaid or any homework that you want to impart on us?



[2:01:57] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: I would like to say that the human body is a miraculous creation. It’s a pinnacle of evolution on this planet. It has every mechanism of healing itself and maintaining itself, rejuvenating itself programmed into it. Trust it, and listen to it, and work with it, and never lose hope. I have seen so many miracles happening with the GAPS diet alone. Things that have been classified incurable people recover from. Diseases that have been classified as genetic because we don’t know what else might be causing it. People suddenly recover from them despite the fact that they’ve got the gene that the doctors have tested and found the gene and the person still recovers. So never lose hope. Never give up. If your doctor hasn’t got an answer for you, keep searching because the answer is probably elsewhere. So anything can be healed, I believe. And just trust in the human nature, in the Mother Nature, and in the design of the human body.



[2:03:08] Ashley James: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride. It has been such a pleasure having you on the show. You’re welcome back anytime.



[2:03:15] Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride: Thank you very much. Thank you for listening.



[2:03:19] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? And how we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity? Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business? Support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

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