Dr. Terry Wahls and Ashley James


  • What the Wahls Protocol is
  • Mitochondria driver of disability for MS and other degenerative diseases
  • Factors that raises cognitive decline
  • What carotenoids are
  • Diet and lifestyle choices made diseases develop.
  • Everything you eat will become you.
  • What do you want your health for?


Diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and needing to use a reclining wheelchair, nobody expected that Dr. Terry Wahls would be able to walk without assistance or even ride a bike for 18.5 miles. But she did. Be inspired by Dr. Terry’s story on how she put her multiple sclerosis in remission and how she helped other people put their degenerative diseases in remission by changing their diet and lifestyle.



Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. I am so excited for you to hear today’s interview with Dr. Terry Wahls who is quite the celebrity in the holistic health space. She reversed her MS using food and has gone on to help thousands of people reverse autoimmune conditions and heal their brain, heal their nervous system. She has a very interesting approach to healing the body by using food. The majority of the diet is vegetables.

I want to let you know that if you’re the type of person that does not know how to cook and eat delicious vegetables, please join the Learn True Health Home Kitchen. Back in October, I started working with my friend Naomi, who’s an amazing stay at home chef. She has created some amazingly delicious and healing recipes. Of course, that’s what my passion is as well, using the kitchen to heal my body and keep my family healthy. W­­­­e started filming, for four months, we filmed videos and we put them all up in a membership. Every week, we also add new videos. These videos teach you how to cook lots of vegetables, lots of plants to heal your body.

Dr. Wahls also talks about using things like organ meats to heal the body. She goes through that in the interview. Of course, you definitely are going to want to get her new book. She has so much science behind it and also many results clinically, which is really, really exciting. Thousands of people have been able to put their MS in remission and other autoimmune diseases in remission using her way, her diet. She explains that there are different ways to do it. You can take her formula and you can do it in a vegan or vegetarian way. If you have allergies or religious beliefs or you don’t want to eat meat, there’s a way to do it that way. A way to go more whole food plant-based with her protocol. She does mention in the interview it’s difficult but it’s doable. She works with Dr. Joel Kahn, who’s a plant-based vegan cardiologist. They together help people reverse heart disease, MS, and autoimmune conditions together.

In the interview, she says it’s difficult because they don’t have a complete protein. What she meant by that was not that the whole food plant-based diet is void of protein, it’s not, there’s protein in everything. In all plants there’s protein. What she was referring to is that her protocol is very limiting because it’s an autoimmune protocol. There are no potatoes, there are no beans, there are no grains. If someone is going to take her protocol and also be a vegan, they’re going to have to really monitor their diet closely so that they’re making sure they’re getting all the nutrition they require to heal the body.

We can use food as medicine. There’s not one diet that fixes everyone because everyone is on different paths. One person is healing their diabetes, the other one is healing their heart disease, the other one is healing an autoimmune condition, the other one is trying to gain weight, the other one is trying to lose weight, someone’s trying to gain muscle. You can accomplish many of these things by eating whole foods. What does that mean? It means it’s not eating processed foods, eating whole foods. Dr. Terry Wahls today is going to share some amazing stories and amazing success around showing people how to dial in their diet to heal their bodies.

If you want to learn how to cook whole foods and learn from myself and Naomi, we have some amazing recipes that are so delicious that our kids love eating these meals. Kids that normally don’t like vegetables are now eating them and loving them. If you want to figure out how to use your kitchen to heal your body, please join Learn True Health Home Kitchen. You’ll also be supporting the Learn True Health podcast by doing that. We made it affordable for everyone. You could join monthly or annually. Go to learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. That’s learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. You are just going to love it. 

I’ve got one recipe in the baked section that is a 10-pound lasagna and lasagna is 100% made of plants. You’re getting all your vegetables and the kids love it. They love it. They don’t realize that they’re eating so many vegetables. It is so delicious. There are no grains in it. It’s grain-free and is just very delicious. I call it 10-pound lasagna because it’s 10 pounds of vegetables. It’s just amazing. It’s so delicious. I am excited for you to join Learn True Health Home Kitchen. Go to learntruehealth.com/homekitchen and join our membership. You’ll be supporting yourself and your family. If you’re stuck at home during the quarantine, there are over seven hours of videos and content right now in the membership. You’ll be able to pour through them and learn all these wonderful recipes and ways of healing your body. We even have recipes that incorporate antiviral foods to support the immune system. Learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. Excellent.

Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this episode with those you care about especially those you know in your life who have MS or have any form of autoimmune condition. This diet, this protocol, is proving to be incredibly successful. I’m so excited and grateful to be able to bring this information to you today. Let’s share it with as many people as possible and turn this ripple into a tidal wave to help as many people as possible to learn true health.

Image by irfan ullah from Pixabay


[0:06:15] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 418. I am so excited for today’s guest. I feel like you are a celebrity in my world so I am starstruck. Dr. Terry Wahls here. You, to me, is the bringer, the mother of using food as medicine. The founder of bringing forth the knowledge of what we’ve known for centuries but forgotten in the last hundred years. That when we eat our medicine, when I treat our plate as if it’s our prescription, we can heal disease. You have been showing us with your own example and you’ve helped thousands and thousands of people so I am so inspired by you. Many of my listeners, when I told them I was interviewing you, got so excited because we can, with whole foods, we can heal our body and you’re showing us that. Welcome to the show.


[0:07:25] Dr. Terry Wahls: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here.


[0:07:28] Ashley James: Absolutely. For those who don’t know who you are or haven’t seen your TEDx talk, which I’m going to make sure the link to it is in the show notes of the podcast. Everyone should google Dr. Terry Wahls and watch the first video that comes up is the TED talk because it is so inspiring. Even since then, because that was back in 2011, so much has happened. I can’t wait to hear what has happened since. For those who have never heard of you before, can you fill us in? What happened in your life that led you to using food as medicine?


[0:08:01] Dr. Terry Wahls: I’m an internal medicine physician at the University of Iowa: very, very conventional, believed in the latest drugs, best technology, and was very skeptical of special diets and supplements and all of that stuff. God works in mysterious ways to teach us. I developed weakness in my left leg in 2000 and was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. I knew it’s a progressive disease. I want to treat my disease aggressively so I sought out the best people I could find, took the newest drugs, but went relentlessly downhill. Within two years, my Cleveland Clinic physicians had told me about the work of Loren Cordain. I read his books and his papers and decided, after 20 years of being a low-fat vegetarian, to go back to eating meat. I gave up all grains, all legumes, all dairy and was eating meat.

It was a big change. I continued to go downhill, but I stayed with that diet because I didn’t know how long to change my course. The next year I needed a reclining wheelchair. I started taking more potent drugs including Tysabri, that new biologic. Continued to go relentlessly downhill. They tried a variety of other disease-modifying drugs. They never had any impact, but I stayed with them because I was trying to do everything that I possibly could. 

I also decided to begin reading the basic science and to do all that I possibly could. On that basis, I decided that mitochondria were likely the drivers of disability in MS and many other neurodegenerative diseases like Parkinson’s Alzheimer’s, ALS. I started making a supplement cocktail to support my mitochondria. That helped my fatigue a little bit, but I was still declining. I also have trigeminal neuralgia. I actually had that since medical school since 1980. My face pain was getting steadily more severe, more difficult.

I discovered the Institute for Functional Medicine in the summer of 2007. I took their course in neuroprotection. I had a longer list of supplements, which I added. Not a lot changed, but then I had a really big aha moment. What if I redesigned my paleo diet in a very specific way based on what I’d learned from my review of the basic science and what I was taking in supplement form? It was several more months of research and I started this new way of eating in the December 26, 2008. Mind you, at that point, I’m beginning to have problems with brain fog. Of course, I have severe, severe fatigue. I am so weak I cannot sit up in a regular chair. I’m in a zero-gravity chair with my knees higher than my nose, and it’s a struggle to walk 10 feet using two walking sticks.

I start this new way of eating, within three months my trigeminal neuralgia is gone, my brain fog is gone, my fatigue is gone, and I’m able to sit up and eat at the kitchen table again. Then in six months, I’m walking around at the hospital with a walking stick. In nine months, I’m able to get on my bike for the first time in six years. I am able to pedal around the block. My son and my daughter are crying. My wife is crying. I am crying. In a year, I’m able to do an 18.5-mile bike ride with my family. Once again, my kids are crying, my wife’s crying, and I’m crying. This radically changes how I will practice medicine. It will ultimately change the type of research that I do.


[0:12:09] Ashley James: I bet. How did you come across the idea that mitochondria and feeding the mitochondria was the key?


[0:12:17] Dr. Terry Wahls: As I was continuing to go relentlessly downhill despite taking the best drugs from the best people, I was like, “Okay, I can go back to reading the literature.” I started reading the animal models for MS. Then I thought, “Well, I might as well read about the other neurodegenerative diseases with shrinking brains.” I’m reading the animal models of Parkinson’s, about Alzheimer’s. I see that mitochondrial dysfunction is present in all those disease states. Although no one’s yet talking about it in MS, but I decide since I never really had relapses. I had really only one relapse, maybe two in my entire course. Otherwise, it was this slow relentless decline, that mitochondria were probably the big driver for my illness. Then my research was like, “Okay. What nutrients could I take, supplements, vitamins?”

Again, I’m reading the basic science, animal model studies. Slowly, I’m coming up with a supplement cocktail that’s helpful. It’s not stopping anything but I’m slowing my decline. I can tell the days I skipped my supplements I don’t do as well. I’m very excited by that. I’m excited because I’m learning stuff that my medical team is not telling me. I’m feeling very impassioned and I’m willing to spend more time reading the literature. By now, I’ve been assigned to join the Institutional Review Board to review clinical research. I tell my partners that I want to review all of the brain related studies. I’m getting more and more comfortable reading the basic science, reading clinical trials, and I’m getting more comfortable experimenting on myself.


[0:14:15] Ashley James: Very interesting observation that the days that you skip your B vitamins and your supplements that you notice a difference right away.


[0:14:25] Dr. Terry Wahls: Correct. Well, it takes about 36 hours. Here’s what happened. After six months of my first round of supplements, the conventional doc reared her head and said, “Oh, you’re just wasting your money.” So I quit them all. Then I could go to work the next day, but then after 36 hours, I just felt profoundly even more exhausted. On the third day, my wife came in, “Honey, I think you oughta take these again.” I took them and the next morning I could go to work. I thought, “Wow. That is really, really interesting.” Two weeks later, I did the same thing, I stopped all my supplements. Again, at 36 hours, my fatigue was even much more severe. I waited three days. I started them up again and said, “Okay,” that is when I was so excited like, “Okay. I’m figuring stuff out.”


[0:15:18] Ashley James: Right. That there’s one way that someone could have MS—my understanding and maybe you could shed some light on this—is that it’s an autoimmune condition or at least that’s been… People think it’s autoimmune, but an autoimmune condition wouldn’t get better and worse and better and worse because you took your supplements one day and then didn’t the next. Right? Is that my understanding?


[0:15:45] Dr. Terry Wahls: Correct. Correct. We’ve known for a long time that MS has both an inflammation component and a degeneration component. Early on, the researchers focused on finding drugs and strategies that would turn off the excess inflammation. Now that we understand the MRI, we’ve been measuring brain volume and spinal cord volume, we realize that as the brain volume shrinks the disability is fixed. If you have inflammation you’ll have weakness that may disappear when that acute relapse goes away and you get back to close to normal. As the volume decreases, the disability is fixed, and the thinking is it’s the mitochondria that aren’t making enough energy that are leading to the brain volume loss and that are leading to the permanent disability. A lot of the drugs that are focused on stopping inflammation are really good at stopping the inflammation, but they don’t have any drugs for mitochondria. It turns out that that’s really a diet and lifestyle thing.


[0:17:07] Ashley James: Right. You can’t feed a body a bunch of drugs and expect it to make enzymes because the body needs nutrients.


[0:17:17] Dr. Terry Wahls: Needs all the parts.


[0:17:18] Ashley James: Right. The building blocks of life.


[0:17:22] Dr. Terry Wahls: My daughter went back to school. She’s taking a chemistry class. I was thinking about going back to grad school with some more science. It’s so fun to watch her get so excited about chemistry. We’re having these lovely conversations about biochemistry, nutrition, and health. It’s just so obvious that if you don’t have the building blocks, you can’t run the chemistry. How can you be healthy if you don’t have the building blocks to run the chemistry of life?


[0:17:57] Ashley James: Right. We’re not going to get it through a fast-food drive-through. The standard American diet does not set us up for success. You noticed a difference on days that you took your supplements versus you didn’t within 36 hours. What happened to have you have that aha moment and go, “Wait a second. Maybe I could get even more if I switched over to food.”


[0:18:22] Dr. Terry Wahls: Isn’t it interesting? I started taking with my supplement cocktail about 2004, maybe early 2005. I’m reading the basic science, slowly adding a few more vitamins and supplements. In the summer of 2007, I discovered the Institute for Functional Medicine. They had a really lovely course on neuroprotection. That again was a lot of mitochondria, a lot of biochemistry—I liked it a lot. They had a longer list of supplements, which I added. I should step back. Remember, I switched from vegetarian to paleo eater and that I’m adding supplements. It does not improve me, it’s just slowing my decline. I have to admit, I don’t quite recall what was the aha moment. What if I used my list of supplements to say, “I need to figure out where these are in the food supply and stress those foods.” Because of course food is really complex. It’s much more than the—at that time it was 19 different nutrients that I was working on supplement wise. Now there are 36 nutrients that we monitor to determine the quality of the diet in terms of brain health. When I went to my registered dietician colleagues I said, “What foods would these be? What I need to eat to have a rich supply of these nutrients?” and the response was, “That’s complicated. I need a dietetic intern to look that up. I don’t really know.” Then I went to the university librarian so we tried. They really weren’t that helpful, but fortunately, I went back and I found the Linus Pauling Institute of Micronutrients. I used that as a [inaudible 0:20:19] resource. Originally, I had these long lists of foodstuffs that I was stressing. You can’t teach that to the public very well. Then I had to think much more deeply about how could I create an easily understood teaching message that would help people have diets that stress these key nutrients that I’m so keen on?

That’s how I ended up creating the message that I now teach which was the core part of the Wahls protocol.


[0:20:51] Ashley James: Before that though, before you decided you were going to teach people how to eat this way, you were figuring out for yourself. You were experimenting with food. Then you started to see results. Can you bring us back to that moment?


[0:21:08] Dr. Terry Wahls: What happened there was I’d identified these B vitamins, some sulfur amino acids, carotenoids, a variety of fats. I had that as I needed to have foods that would be rich in these things. Eventually, I get this list of these key foodstuffs that I wanted to be eating, and that was eating liver. I grew up eating liver. I quit eating liver. I was back to, ”I got to eat liver once a week,” and to get oysters and mussels a couple times a week. The other thing that’s fascinating, I identified that carotenoid, all these carotenoids were really vital. So I ate salads but now I was eating a tremendously much larger volume of kale, and parsley, and romaine lettuce, chard, and way more garlic, and then flax oil, and hemp oil and all this. What I discovered was as I ramped all of this up, I discovered that I couldn’t get enough greens. I had just this amazing craving for greens, for cooked kale, for steamed kale, for big kale salads, parsleys.

We since had more research that has come through on the critical role of vitamin K2 in the brain for stimulating the growth of brain stem cells, and the oligodendrocytes that repair the myelin in the brain. I’m recovering enough that I’m submitting papers and abstracts to present at scientific meetings, and so I’m going to these meetings. You can’t eat 9-12 cups of vegetables on the road very easily. I had yet figure out how to do that. I discovered that 36 hours away from home, my energy was beginning to tank.


[0:23:40] Ashley James: Right. Had you switched over? Had you stopped taking supplements and you’d been getting all your nutrition from food?


[0:23:47] Dr. Terry Wahls: No. I was still taking my supplements. I could still take the supplements, but I couldn’t take all the food. When I was away from it, within 36 hours, my energy level was dropping quite remarkably and my mental clarity was dropping quite remarkably. I would eventually learn, so I would pack food with me. I’d pack a kale with me and I’d be eating my kale. I pack cabbage with me, I’d eat cabbage. if I would pack these foods—and cabbage flies really well because it’s very forgiving. It can go several days without being refrigerated, it’s not a big deal. I really enjoy raw cabbage so I could go with a green cabbage, I could go with a purple cabbage, I could go with green or purple kale. Those are very portable foods.


[0:24:43] Ashley James: And delicious.


[0:24:46] Dr. Terry Wahls: And delicious. When I traveled with my vegetables in tow, I didn’t have my vegetable intake drop, and then I was fine.


[0:24:58] Ashley James: Fascinating. You figured out that you needed certain compounds like sulfur, iodine. Can you break that down a bit, the really important? You mentioned carotenoids, what is that?


[0:25:15] Dr. Terry Wahls: Carotenoids, those are the antioxidants that are in plants. The part of the pigment in plants. A lot of them are in the green plants but also in red, orange, blue, purple, black also have a variety of carotenoids in them. You can think of these as the polyphenols, the antioxidants. These are compounds that help protect. Every chemical plant always has some trash in it as you do the chemical processes. Whether it’s a man-made chemical plant or a biologic chemical plant. There is some biochemical trash in our mitochondria and biochemical trash in our cells and the color—the carotenoids in our plants—mop up that trash very nicely.


[0:26:12] Ashley James: They go in and they clean up the mitochondria? They give it a little spring cleaning.


[0:26:16] Dr. Terry Wahls: Yes, exactly. That is exactly correct. They provide support to a lot of enzymes of the mitochondria to improve their efficiency. They also provide support to some of the enzymes in the brain for making neurotransmitters. They provide support to the enzymes involved in the processing and eliminating of toxins.


[0:26:43] Ashley James: So these are things that are really hard to get from supplements. You can get a B complex but if you’re just taking supplements and then eating potatoes and corn and just the standard American diet, you’re not getting the carotenoids.


[0:26:59] Dr. Terry Wahls: And you’re not getting the diversity. You see, we have had about a billion and a half maybe two billion years worth of random mutations that have occurred in DNA that have allowed us to create enzymes that facilitate the chemistry of life. We have this rich array of compounds that support the chemistry of life. Food is vastly more complicated than the 34 different nutrients that the US Department of Agriculture has listed with recommended daily allowance or average intake recommendations for us. We need food, with all of its complexity and diversity, in order for us to run the full chemistry of life. 

In fact, when I was in medical school, we were so excited about the genome project because we’re going to analyze the human DNA and sequence it. We thought we’d have about 100,000 genes because of the number of proteins that humans have. It turns out we have only about 25,000 genes. The big question is, “Man, where did those other 75,000 genes go?” Because corn, grass, plants, wheat have more like 100,000 genes. Our professors are sort of offended that plants appeared to be more complicated than humans. That this was like, “How could that be?” Of course, nobody knew anything about the microbiome. We just thought poop was poop.

Now we know that microbiome is teeming with life. As those bacteria and those microbes help eat the food that we consume and help digest the food and make vitamins and other small molecules that would get into our bloodstream, it’s the bacteria that have those other 75,000 genes that have the DNA to make the enzymes to make those compounds that we need for the other processes that we could no longer do, but our bacteria could. When the mutation occurred thousands of generations ago in our ancestral mother, she had reproductive success because the microbes in her gut could still do that chemical step. It was at that moment that the genetic instruction for that chemical step was exported from the human DNA to bacterial DNA.


[0:30:03] Ashley James: Fascinating. Your microbiome changed because you changed your diet. It became more diverse because you ate a more diverse diet of plants because that’s what feeds meat. Meat doesn’t necessarily feed a microbiome well but plants do, right?


[0:30:22] Dr. Terry Wahls: Let me modify that. The meat feeds your microbiome. The supplements you eat feed your microbiome. Junk food you eat feeds your microbiome. Plants feed your microbiome. The things that are new to our microbiome are processed foods, processed food additives, emulsifiers, sugar, white flour, pasta, cereals. All those things are clearly feeding disease-promoting bacteria. Plants, they are probably feeding the same kind of bacteria that were in our ancestral mothers for thousands of generations. Meat, again, thousands of generations. Whole grains and legumes, that’d be about 8,000 years, so a few generations. Not as many as the meats and plants have been eating. The sugar about 300 years. The emulsifier, food additives, that’s probably about 100 years.

Photo by Ryan Quintal on Unsplash


[0:31:24] Ashley James: I heard one microbiome expert said that we’ve created the Homer Simpson of microbiome in the modern diet. It’s just kind of dumbed down and very limited in its functionality.


[0:31:44] Dr. Terry Wahls: Very limited. On my study team, I have a bunch of dietitians on my study team and we love talking about diet, food quality, the research. The research—I think it’s really very interesting—there are many diets. Humans can eat a wide variety of things and be healthy. My mitochondria can burn protein. During the winter, my ancestral mothers and fathers either had to live off their own fat or if the hunt was good they got to have meat. Otherwise, you had to wait until the next hunt was good because it’d be summer before there was plant material again. You’d have several months where you can have meat or nothing. Then during the summer, you could have plants. If the hunt was bad you just had plants or nothing. If that was okay, you’d have a combination of plants and meat. 

We can survive on just plants for a while, but we all have to have protein. Otherwise, we can’t live without protein. We can survive for a long time on just fat, our own fat. That’s how we survived, war, winter, famine. We can survive for a while on meat alone. I don’t know that we have any societies that have—over their lifetime—been a meat only eater.

We do know the standard American diet is wrecking our health. We could have the Mediterranean diet and have better health. We can have the Paleo diet and have better health. You can have a ketogenic diet and have better health. You’d have the standard American diet as a population our health declines. We have this exploding rates of obesity, autoimmunity, and mental health issues, and cancers. If I take you off that diet and I could put you on a Mediterranean diet, a paleo diet, a ketogenic diet your health will improve. With a little bit of structure, I can put you on a vegetarian or vegan diet and your health will improve. I have a bias that I think our diet, of all the diets out there, have been most thoughtfully structured. We’re the only one who really have done any prospective studies in detailed nutritional analyses to say, “We know that this diet provides everything that your brain needs.”


[0:34:21] Ashley James: While you were traveling and you were experimenting with food, eating tons, tons of plants. Of course, you were eating you said liver. I believe you said once a week, you’re eating grass-fed meat.


[0:34:32] Dr. Terry Wahls: Once a week, yes.


[0:34:34] Ashley James: So you’re eating organ meat once a week. You’re eating grass-fed meat, free-range—


[0:34:39] Dr. Terry Wahls: Well, I want to correct you there. Liver once a week. Heart probably once a week. Oysters and mussels once or twice a week. I was eating a lot of organs. I was paying deep, deep attention to the diversity of my meats and diversity of my plants.


[0:35:01] Ashley James: Now, you ate, I believe you said, nine cups of vegetables a day.


[0:35:08] Dr. Terry Wahls: I told the public to eat nine. I was probably eating more like 12.


[0:35:13] Ashley James: See, yeah. Nine seems small because when you’ve been describing how much a variety of vegetables, but you ate a huge amount of beautiful variety of plants. It’s not like you’re eating a carnivore diet. You’re listing off all these meats and stuff. It’s really a small amount of animal products in comparison to the rest of your diet, which was a variety of beautiful vegetables and berries. You did that experiment accidentally where you cut back on your 12 cups of vegetables while you were traveling and you notice within 36 hours you had fatigue and brain fog. Did you ever experiment with cutting out the animal products for a few days and noticing if you also experience the same effect?


[0:36:11] Dr. Terry Wahls: Correct. I could do no meat for two days. Beyond that, it does not work.


[0:36:21] Ashley James: So you had the same experience of lowered—so there are some key nutrients that you figured out in the organ meats.


[0:36:31] Dr. Terry Wahls: The organ meats are really superfoods. I had some debates with the carnivore folks. Then with them, I like liver, I think it’s really good for you, but I only want people to have about 6 to 8 ounces of liver a week. I want them to otherwise have other organs: heart, kidney, oysters, mussels, whole sardines. If you have more than eight ounces of liver, then you’re going to be at risk for chronic vitamin A toxicity. If you don’t have enough retinol, then you’re at risk for retinol insufficiency, which also increases the risk for infection, autoimmunity, and cancer. There’s a balance, liver once a week. My mother, my grandmother, my great-grandmother also eat liver once a week. By God they were correct.


[0:37:30] Ashley James: Right. If we look at even the health of our great-grandparents versus the health that we have today. We really do need to go back. If we just go back a few hundred years we would eat such a better diet than what we’re eating now. I really do love what you’ve dialed in. The question is, where’s the science. You’ve experimented on yourself, but since then, where is the science? I’d love to know, have you been able to do clinical studies?


[0:38:08] Dr. Terry Wahls: Yes. Absolutely.


[0:38:08] Ashley James: Have you been able to prove that this formula is effective for other people as well?


[0:38:16] Dr. Terry Wahls: Yeah. My area of research was a diagnostic error looking at what we called secondary data analysis. When I had my recovery, the chair of medicine saw my recoveries. They’re at the U again, call me in, I told them what I had done, and he’s a rheumatology doctor. He says, “Terry, this is so important. I want you to get a case report written up.” I said, “On myself said?” He said, “Yes. Work with your treating team. That’s your assignment for the year.” I salute and I said, “Okay.” I get that done, and he calls me back and says, “Now, I want you to do a safety and feasibility study.” I said, “Well, I don’t really have training in that.” “I will get you mentors. That’s your assignment.” Again, I salute and we get the protocol written up. That takes me a while to get it written up and through the IRB, now I have to raise about $100,000. When you have less than 2% of protocols get funding, but if we have any Canadian listeners, we have to thank the Canadians because it was a Canadian small nonprofit that gave us that funding. A little electrotherapy device MP that gave us that funding, and we were able to do that small early pilot study. We were able to show that yes other people could implement my diet and lifestyle program, that it was safe, that the biggest risk was if you’re overweight you lost weight and got back to a healthy body weight.


[0:39:59] Ashley James: If people were at normal weight or underweight would they lose weight as well?


[0:40:03] Dr. Terry Wahls: They would get back to the weight that they were at as a young adult. It’s about 19-22 years old without being hungry. Nobody became underweight. We were able to work with people to keep them within that target BMI. They lost their weight actually quite rapidly. I had to file safety reports every three months because of that. Fortunately for me, people got to their young adult weight and stayed there and did very very well. 

Then we were able to show that quality of life went up quite remarkably. You got a short form 36, a 5-point change is clinically meaningful. We had a 16-point change so that would be clinically very very meaningful. The p-value was less than 0.0005, so that’s hugely impactful. The fatigue severity dropped quite largely. That scale was close from seven total fatigue in every aspect of your life to one no fatigue in any aspect of your life. We had a reduction of the volume, I think it was 2.38. Again, clinically huge and statistically very, very meaningful. Again, less than 0.0005.


[0:41:30] Ashley James: What’s a low p-value mean?


[0:41:33] Dr. Terry Wahls: It means that it’s a statistical way of saying it’s significant. If it’s less than 0.05 then that means there’s a 95% probability that that is statistically meaningful, it wasn’t a random possibility. The fact that I’m less than 0.0005 would mean there’d be less than 0.005 percent chance of random finding of that. In the science world, that is hugely, hugely significantly.


[0:42:10] Ashley James: I bet. You’re using diet and nutrition, you were using it to heal your specific condition, but do you think your diet could heal all conditions? Do you think that this is the perfect diet for everyone or just for specific diseases?

[0:42:29] Dr. Terry Wahls: This changed how I practice medicine in my primary care clinic, in the traumatic brain injury clinic. They’re taking care of people with diabetes, obesity, heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, chronic pain, post-traumatic stress disorder, post-traumatic brain injury. My Veteran Affairs hospital was so impressed that they pulled me out of those clinics and put me in my own clinic. We call it the Therapy Lifestyle Clinic. There, I went and asked people who had the pain clinic and the primary care clinics and said, “Give me your people who are most refractory to treatment who you can’t really help, but they need to know I’m only using diet and lifestyle. You’re going to do the drugs. I’m not doing any drugs for these patients.”

We got a few folks had tremendous success. Started getting more and more referrals. We just had such, such success that the VA national office came out to see me. We wrote a grant, expanded the clinic. Then, three years ago, I decided to leave the VA because by then, I’m now traveling in the world lecturing, teaching other physicians, other researchers how to do what it is that I do.


[0:43:58] Ashley James: Brilliant. You mentioned that if the population just stopped eating the standard American diet any of your listed [Hough 0:44:07] even vegan, vegetarian, paleo, keto, Mediterranean all of those would be better choices than the standard American diet. Can someone heal? Could someone choose a whole food plant-based diet eating 12 cups of a variety of vegetables a day and heal their mitochondria, or did you find that you absolutely need to eat organ meat in order to heal the mitochondria?


[0:44:33] Dr. Terry Wahls: In my book, the Wahls protocol, I do have levels. For the vegetarian, vegans I provide a structure for them and supplement recommendations so that they could address their mitochondria. Most folks who are vegetarian are vegans—unless they’re taking supplements—are going to end up with chronic disease and a neurologic problem.


[0:45:00] Ashley James: Why is that? What supplements?


[0:45:02] Dr. Terry Wahls: Well, that’s because they don’t get a complete protein. If they aren’t taking B vitamins they’ll ultimately become short on B12, they may become short on iodine, they may become short on minerals. You can be a vegetarian vegan but you have to be very thoughtful, you have to structure your diet carefully, and you need some B vitamins, and you need some supplements.


[0:45:29] Ashley James: Most people need supplements if they’ve been eating the standard American diet because they’re highly deficient.


[0:45:36] Dr. Terry Wahls: Their recovery will be faster. In my VA, we had very limited supplements that we could use. This was really a diet and lifestyle program. My folks were living on food stamps. They’re often disabled, unable to work. They’re shopping in rural small-town Iowa. It’s certainly not Whole Foods, and we had remarkable success. I teach them how to cook. I wasn’t doing any fancy functional medicine testing, I was doing just basic primary care labs. 

We had worked out how to grow their internal motivation. We’ve created what I now call the Wahls behavior change model, and that’s part of what I teach clinicians. Because the reasons our patients get better—whether you’re a conventional doc or you’re a functional medicine doc—the reason they get better or not is most often really contingent on can they follow your recommendations to improve their diet quality and their health behaviors? We’re asking people to give up today’s pleasures for tomorrow’s benefits.


[0:46:45] Ashley James: It could be something as quick as days, days of eating vegetables. How soon did you notice a shift in your symptoms? Because you were very sick.


[0:46:56] Dr. Terry Wahls: In a month.


[0:46:57] Ashley James: In one month. So it took 30 days and then you started noticing it or was it gradual over that month?


[0:47:03] Dr. Terry Wahls: Gradual over that month, in my clinics with the VA, we’d see people monthly for that first six months. It was very typical when they’d come back. Then that first month, they could tell that things were beginning to improve often for the first time in years, many times decades. That their pain was lessening, their brain fog was lessening, their energy was improving, that the world was less irritating to them, and it was easier to get along with family, with co-workers, with colleagues, with their spouse, with their kids. It was because the inflammation in their brain and their spinal cord is going down. Their weight is coming down quite remarkably. They’re not striving. They’re not hungry. They’re eating to satiety.

Of course, many of these folks had either never been taught how to cook or had forgotten how to cook. We have to have cooking classes and food demonstrations to show them how to do this affordably. How to do it affordable in terms of money and in terms of time. It has to be manageable for both.


[0:48:28] Ashley James: Were all the participants in this study all have MS, or do they have a variety of neurological symptoms?


[0:48:35] Dr. Terry Wahls: In my clinical trials we’ve only studied multiple sclerosis. In my clinics, so I told you about my primary care clinic and my traumatic brain injury clinic, in my lifestyle clinic, we’d see folks with anxiety, depression, PTSD, bipolar. Then we’d see rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus, fibromyalgia, myasthenia gravis, MS, Parkinson’s, cognitive decline, chronic pain following back surgery, chronic pain following a war injury or a traumatic amputation, chronic headaches following a severe traumatic brain injury. Then of course, the usual diabetes, obesity, heart disease, heart failure. We had some Neuropathies following chemotherapy, so a wide variety of conditions. The most common symptoms were pain, decreasing energy, or fatigue problems, irritability, brain fog. People will often report that those symptoms were reducing within four to six weeks. Then It’d continue to improve over the next six months.


[0:49:58] Ashley James: Did their MS go away?


[0:50:00] Dr. Terry Wahls: I’m very clear. In my case, I still have lesions in my spinal cord, a couple of lesions in my head, but these were lesions that had been there for years. My neurologist when I went back to see him he was so excited to get another MRI. He was disappointed that the MRI hadn’t changed. He said, “But you know, Terry, I expect it was foolish to think that they would because those were old lesions. Of course, they’re going to stay. If you have new lesions that are less than two years old, there’s plenty of reason to be very hopeful that those lesions will go away. If they’re old lesions, older than two years, they may well stay.” 

I’m very clear with all of my patients whether you have an autoimmune problem, or a degenerative problem, or diabetes, obesity. If we change your diet and lifestyle to health-promoting diet and lifestyle choices, and your blood pressure improves, your blood sugar improves, your mood improves, you are doing great, you’re off meds, and so you think now you’re cured. You can go back to your old ways. All of your diseases will come screaming back, and you’ll need all your drugs again. It’s the diet and lifestyle choices that made those diseases develop.


[0:51:24] Ashley James: Well, it’s kind of like drinking a poison. If I were to give arsenic to someone and they get sick. Then they take an antidote and they’re like, “Oh, I’m better again.” They keep taking the arsenic.


[0:51:37] Dr. Terry Wahls: I can go back to eating an arsenic.


[0:51:38] Ashley James: Right. The diet is the arsenic, the diet causes these diseases. It’s not that we’re broken. I feel that’s the mentality, and I love that you have a behavioral change model because part of that is the mentality that I’m broken and I need drugs, for example. I’m not against drugs. They’re not the only thing out there. It’s certainly not the cure if the diet is the poison.


[0:52:04] Dr. Terry Wahls: What we teach is we’re creating health by helping you learn health behaviors, health-promoting behaviors. What I can’t predict for anyone is how much health recovery is possible. Typically, I am quite delighted that vastly more health recovery is possible than the person had dared to hope for because they were so ill that they had been afraid. They just couldn’t know what might be possible. 

As we embrace those health behaviors, and I get them to understand how to shop and make menus and eat and cook and prepare all that. We teach them how to find joy and meaning in their life as it is. How to manage their stress levels and self-care. To go outside and move and be at the sunlight again. What they discover is the blood pressure begins to improve. The blood sugars begin to improve. Their mood improves. They were having joyful relationships with their family.

The guys come in smiling and say, “You know what doc, you didn’t tell me that my love life would come back.” So they’re smiling and the ladies are in because they’re so pleased that they’re getting their old bodies back. They’re losing weight getting back to a younger, healthier self.


[0:53:34] Ashley James: Beautiful. I interviewed Dr. Joel Khan and he said to me he was very excited for the research that you’re doing now. I think it was specifically around a whole food plant-based diet. Can you shed some light on that?


[0:53:51] Dr. Terry Wahls: What Joel is he is more of a low-fat person, and he is very much into plants. He comes out from a cardiology perspective. Where Joel and I agree is that it’s certainly possible to have a vegetarian diet. He and I recognize that you got to follow your B12 very closely, you want to follow your mineral status, you want to follow your protein status. If you do a low-fat diet, you still have to maintain your Omega-3 fatty acid, Omega-6 fatty acid ratios. It’s the ratio that’s also very important in addition to having sufficient fats in your brains are fat. 

The research that I do uses the Wahls Paleo diet or the Wahls elimination diet. In my clinical practice, we do take care of people who are vegetarian and vegans. We have a diet that Joel Khan would be thrilled that we are using. That’s my clinical practice for people who are vegetarian or vegan for their religious beliefs or who may have a particular reason to follow a lower cholesterol diet because of their underlying heart disease. In my MS clinical research, we do either the Wahls paleo or the Wahls elimination diet.


[0:55:18] Ashley James: Explain how we can get healthy fats from our diet to support our brain? People are worried about Alzheimer’s and dementia. That’s on the rise. Of course, not only MS, but that there’s other neurological problems that look like they’re on the rise.


[0:55:39] Dr. Terry Wahls: Absolutely. It’s very scary the rates of cognitive decline, early dementias—early dementias in the 40s that are being found. Of course, there are many factors with that. Part of that is a diet that drives your insulin up very high. If you have a diet that’s high in carbs, that can drive your insulin high. When the insulin is high, your brain can’t clear out some of the toxic trash, the beta-amyloid as well. So you’re at higher risk for cognitive decline. If you have more toxins, heavy metals mercury, arsenic, you’re at higher rates for cognitive decline. If you have unrecognized gluten sensitivity, you’re at a much higher rate of cognitive decline. If you aren’t physically active, you have a higher rate of cognitive decline. If you smoked or exposed to air pollution, you have higher rates of cognitive decline. If you are lonely, you have higher rates of cognitive decline. So there are many, many, many factors here.

When we see people, we talk about the many things that are under our control that can markedly reduce your risk of cognitive decline. When I first started doing my research in 2010, I was the only person doing a food-based dietary intervention. I was the only person doing a multi-modal diet stress reduction exercise intervention. The feeling was that if you didn’t do one like you at a time if you had a good effect we wouldn’t know the mechanism. Fortunately, my chair of medicine said, “The question is, can people do what you did? If they do, what happens?” We saw that yes they could do it, we didn’t hurt them, and we had dramatically favorable results. We’re doing more of these complicated diet stress reduction exercise studies. The NIH is now doing more of these diet and lifestyle studies to look at other autoimmune conditions and other issues of cognitive decline.


[0:58:10] Ashley James: I know you said you’re just doing basic labs, but did you see that in the labs, that they’re autoimmune—whatever markers you use for autoimmune—that they were going down as well as healing mitochondria?


[0:58:25] Dr. Terry Wahls: As you address the diet and lifestyle factors, you can do autoimmunity panels. There are much more sophisticated autoantibodies that look at brain structures, look at thyroid, look at bone that you could see someone comes in with many autoantibodies. If we teach them how to address diet and lifestyle and adapt these health behaviors, we can see these autoantibody profiles come down. In the VA, thyroid disease is very, very common. Having people implement the Wahls protocol, and we followed their thyroid antibodies, we could see the antibodies coming down nicely. That’s a lovely marker that people can use to monitor that they’re having a great biologic success at changing the trajectory of their illness. If they can go back to being autoantibody negative, they have reversed the damage. Whereas if you continue to have autoantibodies, we know that you’re damaging yourself and you are developing a more progressive organ damage.


[0:59:53] Ashley James: Right. Whether it’s the thyroid or the mitochondria or wherever the autoimmune is presenting. That’s such a clear picture that helps motivate the patient to keep going because it’s going in the right direction.


[1:00:08] Dr. Terry Wahls: Even more important than blood work, I talk about your biosensor. Again, this is something I’ve learned both from my own personal experience and from working with veterans is to help educate them to identify their subtle symptoms. For me, because of my trigeminal neuralgia, if I have changes in sensation on my face that will come up. I know that if I don’t address that my face pain, electrical face pain due to trigeminal neuralgia would turn on, and I will have horrific levels of pain in very short order. That’s my biosensor. So I talk to my patients, “Okay. We want you to figure out what are your subtle symptoms that are sort of your warning that there’s more incipient trouble ahead for you? If you can identify these subtle symptoms that are your biosensor, you can use that to help monitor your environment. If your biosensor is turning on, then you can sit back and think, “Okay, is there something in my diet that I have a food sensitivity to? Was I exposed to more toxins? Is there a bigger situational stressor that’s going on? Am I not outside enough? Has my vitamin D level fallen? Am I having a viral infection?””

I help people tune in to their subtle symptoms for their biosensor. Then help them develop that internal checklist of what are all the environmental exposures I could run through in my mind to see, could this be what’s making my biosensor turn on today?


[1:01:58] Ashley James: Oh, I love it.


[1:01:58] Dr. Terry Wahls: And then, what could I do about it?


[1:02:00] Ashley James: Right. I love that because they’re tuning into their own body. I interviewed Palmer Kippola who had MS for many years. I believe it was over 10 years that as she was adjusting her diet and figuring out what worked for her, she made a checklist and she realized that she could predict if she would have within a month if she would have a relapse based on sleep, stress, nutrition, if she sort of partied too hard, or whatever it was, or had too much stress. She saw that if she didn’t get her supplements or her nutrition or these really important factors, if she just stopped practicing self-care as much, she could predict. She could go, “Okay. This month I’m going to have one. I’m going to have a relapse.” Sure enough, it was predictable, but if she stayed on top of all of the things that you teach then she wouldn’t.


Photo by Christian Erfurt on Unsplash


[1:02:59] Dr. Terry Wahls: All the self-care.


[1:03:00] Ashley James: Yeah, all the self-care. Everything that you teach and the diet she would have zero relapses. It was just evident to her that something is as simple as managing stress, moving your body in a way that brings you joy, hydrating nutrition, nutrition, nutrition, diet being the number one thing, and sleep. Even a lack of sleep and stress, those two combined would be enough for her to have a relapse. She just saw that taking care of yourself on all these levels is so important.


[1:03:35] Dr. Terry Wahls: Think about what’s happening in the world right now. This pandemic of the coronavirus that has people afraid, have governments trying to figure out how to contain the spread of the infection. There’s a lot of fear. People don’t know what to do. If you have this fear, this isolation, and terrible diets that make people at much greater risk to have the viral infection and a greater risk to have a more serious infection. Think of the people over the age of 60, an autoimmune disease or on chronic medication. If we could help them understand that the concepts that I teach, the self-cares, the quality of your diet, the meditation, being outside with some sunlight and fresh air. These things are addressing those factors that put you at greater risk.


[1:04:42] Ashley James: Yes. It’s protective on all fronts. I love it. You mentioned in the evolution of man that there were times where, in the winter, those who lived in the North didn’t have access to plants. We either had to fast, or we could eat a game if we caught it.


[1:05:03] Dr. Terry Wahls: Right. If the hunt was good.


[1:05:06] Ashley James: Yeah. Whatever we could gain access to, but throughout our history, there have been times where we had to fast. Where there was famine we had to fast and our body figured out how to burn fat for fuel so that we could fast. I believe it was back in 2012 that the discovery of autophagy that occurs during fasting. Autophagy being the body’s own ability to digest pathological tissue and scar tissue. Then there’s a huge spike in human growth hormone and in stem cells. Have you looked into or experimented on yourself with using fasting to heal your lesions?


[1:05:44] Dr. Terry Wahls: Probably about 18 months now. My typical eating pattern is one meal a day. So I’ll have a two-hour window where I’m eating food. Then, one week a month, I will have a calorie-restricted diet so that I’ll have about 500 calories a day during that week. By the end of the week, I am pretty hungry. After that then I have a higher protein diet. That’s when my stem cells have all woken up. They’re like making the new younger Terry. I really appreciate that. My family and my kids are like, “Your hair is grayer—yes, mom—but you keep looking younger and younger and younger.” That fasting and that intermittent calorie restriction does increase the number of stem cells that your bone marrow makes and releases into the bloodstream in the periphery. It does improve your ability to repair your blood vessels, your heart, your brain, your pancreas. It makes for actually younger fat because your fat turns out to be a hormone organ.

Intermittent fasting, calorie restriction great for you. If you do intermittent water fasting you for sure need to have your personal medical team supervise that.


[1:07:19] Ashley James: Absolutely. I love that you address that you’re eating very good nutrition after fasting or after a time period of calorie restriction because those stem cells need nutrition to make healthy new cells.


[1:07:36] Dr. Terry Wahls: To make the new you.


[1:07:37] Ashley James: Right. I’ve seen some people come off of a fast and then eat ice cream. I’m like, “You’re just building cells made of ice cream. That’s not conducive to building a healthy body.” We have to remember, everything we put in our mouth is building our cells.


[1:07:53] Dr. Terry Wahls: Becomes you. Everything you eat will become you.


[1:07:57] Ashley James: Do you want to be a doughnut?


[1:08:01] Dr. Terry Wahls: We want to be eating foods that our great-great-grandmother and great-great-grandfather would recognize as food.


[1:08:09] Ashley James: Yes, I love it. As part of your protocol, is there a percentage of food that’s raw so that we get the enzymes? A percentage of food that’s cooked?


[1:08:20] Dr. Terry Wahls: Again, I personalize this based on the circumstances. The simplest way to think about this is who are feeding our microbiome and us. I have you monitor your bowel movements. Are you passing rocks, logs, snakes, pudding, or tea? If you’re passing rocks and dry logs, then your microbiome needs more fiber and more fermented food. So more raw vegetables, more salads, more resistance starch such as inulin. If you’re pooping snakes, that’s fine. If the snakes are getting into your pants that is not socially fine so you’re going to have to back off on the fermented food and the raw things. If you’re pooping pudding and tea, again, that’s not good. You have to back off.

So some people can only have soups and stews because they have inflammatory bowel disease and they’re having pudding and tea. Some people can’t manage the snakes because they have a neurologic disease. They have difficulty controlling their sphincter and they have too many accidents. I don’t want anybody to have rocks and dry logs. I would much rather that they have enough fiber so that they can easily pass their bowel movements.

There’s this stool chart that’s like one to seven. It’s way too confusing to keep track the numbers, but all my patients know when I’m talking rocks, dry logs, logs, snakes, pudding, and tea. They know exactly what I’m talking about.


[1:10:07] Ashley James: So ideally, it’s logs but not dry logs?


[1:10:10] Dr. Terry Wahls: Correct. It’s really soft easily passed bowel movements that you have a couple times a day, you’re not having fecal accidents.


[1:10:20] Ashley James: Can you tell us more about the Wahls behavioral change model? Maybe teach us a little bit because I know the listeners been piqued. Their interest is piqued and they want to make changes in their life. Maybe you could teach us a little bit.


[1:10:34] Dr. Terry Wahls: Yeah. Our brains, through evolution and all of the random mutations that occurred in our DNA, if something was pleasurable and we did more of it and it was good for the species, that mutation was passed on. So in general, we’re wired to crave pleasure and comfort. We’re also wired to be much more interested in what’s happening right now than what might happen in the future. So if I tell you to make this change to give up today’s pleasure, that ice cream, to prevent trouble from being demented in 20 years that’s very difficult. That goes against all of the biologic priming of your ancestors over thousands of generations. That’s incredibly difficult.

Then if I put the ice cream on the counter in a bowl, I put some chocolate sauce on it, it’s extremely difficult for you. You can just taste it, it’s right there in your mouth, it’d be so yummy. But there are some circumstances where you and I would be willing to go into a burning building to save something or someone that we cared so deeply about. That we won’t care about that bowl of ice cream. My question is, is there anything in your life that you care so much about that if you knew that prison or that thing was asleep in that house we see some smoke coming out of the window, without thinking you’d be in there getting that item or that person out. If there is nothing then I’m going to have to help them. I have more join in their life right now because they’re too depressed. If there is something that they care that much about, then there’s a possibility that we can help them give up on the ice cream. Because if I can link the decision that I’m going to give up on the ice cream because I care so much about my grandson that I would take out of that burning house because I want to be there to see my grandson go to school. I want to see my grandson get married. I want to dance with my daughter at her wedding.

If I can help them understand the possibility of why eating vegetables, meditating, and walking will help you achieve that, and let’s figure out what’s the next small actionable step. We’ve got 15 steps along the way to help people go from their current diet and lifestyle to the more therapeutic diet and lifestyle. That’s part of that whole process that we use. When people understand, when I explain to them that of course, it’s very hard to give up today’s pleasures for tomorrow’s benefit. That’s biologic. We’ve had millions of generations where that biology has been reinforced. That is an incredible ask for you to give up today’s pleasures for tomorrow’s theoretic benefit, but we will all do it for things that deeply matter to us such as our children, our grandchildren, or your fellow soldiers in an army unit under fire, or a purpose that you so deeply care about, or perhaps your grand your grandfather’s pocket knife that he gave you, and he’s dead, and by God, you’re not going to lose that.

People are items of tremendous emotional value. You’re willing to risk pain and suffering and potential harm to go safe. We, in fact, are going to give up today’s pleasure, but we have to put it in context for someone to be willing to do that. Then help them make the small actionable next step to be successful.


[1:15:06] Ashley James: I love that you have 15 small steps because it seems almost impossible to go from eating no vegetables at all or people eat potatoes, because they think that’s a vegetable in the form of fries, to go from that nine cups.


[1:15:21] Dr. Terry Wahls: There’s a lot of steps that we go through to help people be successful. You have to grow the insights to understand how it’s possible. You have to connect the motivation. You have to help people find joy in their life as it is right now.


[1:15:42] Ashley James: The listener was following you as you were describing that. In their mind, mentally threw out the ice cream to save their favorite person or object from a burning building. What next steps could they take today?


[1:16:00] Dr. Terry Wahls: Again, it will depend on the person and their circumstances. What are their diagnoses? What am I helping them address? The first step that I really want people to think deeply about is what do you want your health for? Spend some time journaling about that: what I want my health for? That is the beginning of the process because whenever you’re changing your behavior, you can sort of think about the last time you changed a health behavior, broke a bad habit, made a new habit. The reason you were successful was that you decided it was worth it to you to put in that effort. We never make those kinds of changes just because I came over and said, “You got to start walking an hour every day.” When we make a new habit or extinguish an old bad habit it’s because I made the internal decision that my desire for change is great enough that I’m willing to put in the effort.

The very first step for any change is this really deep reflection on what do I want my health for? Because I have to grow your desire to put in the work.


[1:17:43] Ashley James: Yes. Well, look at you. You were in a wheelchair, in a zero-gravity chair and months later, you were walking without assistance.


[1:17:54] Dr. Terry Wahls: I’m walking without assistance, and within a year, 18.5 miles on a bike ride.


[1:17:59] Ashley James: Oh my gosh. Those who are sick and suffering right now and immobile, know that within a year you could be mobile, you could be out of pain, you can end the suffering.


[1:18:16] Dr. Terry Wahls: I spend a fair amount of time helping people understand that their life has meaning and they could have joy now in their circumstances as they are right now even if they’re in a wheelchair, even if they’re having pain, even if they have tremendous sorrow because they’ve lost someone who is deeply, deeply important to them.


[1:18:47] Ashley James: It’s needing to shift the mindset first. That’s where it really allows them to-


[1:18:57] Dr. Terry Wahls: All change begins. All change begins. First, with understanding why I want to make that change.


[1:19:07] Ashley James: You had to overcome a lot of—maybe you’re just a black sheep because you had to have a mindset to be so different than your training as an MD. You’re not trained as an MD to look at food and nutrition. Like you said, you started out by going to the Cleveland Clinic and doing the chemotherapy and doing all the drugs and doing everything. You were a really good patient.


[1:19:39] Dr. Terry Wahls: I absolutely believe in all those drugs. I still take gabapentin, a small dose. The gabapentin, if I don’t take any, my face pain will come back. I take small doses. I’m pain-free. There’s absolutely a role for medication for some conditions. Some people may need disease-modifying drugs. I also want to tell your listeners that I did all of this to slow my decline. I had no hope of recovery. I had accepted that there’d be—with progressive MS—no return of functions once lost. I couldn’t sit up, my pain was getting more and more severe, my brain fog was more troublesome. I knew I would probably soon be forced to stop working, but I felt like I have to do everything that I possibly can. I have young kids. My kids are in high school and junior high. I was still doing my tiny simple work out. I’m still doing everything that I can: reading the basic science, experimenting on myself because I wanted them to see that life’s not fair, but so what? You don’t give up, you just keep doing the best that you can.


[1:21:06] Ashley James: So that was your mindset, that you were a fighter but you were also doing it for those you love, your children.


[1:21:12] Dr. Terry Wahls: I was modeling for my kids that life’s not fair but you do the best that you can anyway. I was modeling for them how I wanted them to face their greatest challenge in life. That was my why.


[1:21:30] Ashley James: I’m moved to tears. I’m just thinking about here you were just wanting to slow down the progression so that you could be there longer for your children, but also that you could demonstrate being a fighter. Out of all of this, you have helped so many people, so many people.


[1:21:51] Dr. Terry Wahls: When I was walking around—as you have a progressive illness, progressive neurologic illness, you finally get to a point where you take each day as it unfolds because I knew I had an incurable progressive illness. My pain is gone, my fatigue is gone. I’m walking the neighborhood with walking sticks and without walking sticks. I’m still taking each day one day at a time because I don’t know what any of this really means. It was the day that I got on my bike, that I was able to bike around the block, that I understood that who knew what might be possible. That the current understanding of MS was incomplete. As I said, my wife’s crying, my kids are crying, I’m crying. Actually, I’m crying now too because that was such a momentous moment. That’s when I began to have hope again. It’s like, “Oh my God. How much recovery is possible?”


[1:22:59] Ashley James: Yes. The body has an amazing ability to heal itself and you unlocked that. Then you started to see it, but it’s the mentality, it’s the mindset. We need to adopt the mindset that it is possible to heal. That a diagnosis is not a life sentence no matter what the doctors say because so many doctors tell their patients what they have been told, which is, “This is progressive. You’re never going to get better.” The fact is no one knows for sure, only God. No one knows for sure what is a life sentence and what isn’t, but the body has an ability to heal itself. We need to hold on to hope and believe that we can heal and then take the actions and fight for ourselves and fight for those we love. You did that and look, you’re creating a ripple that is going around the world and is saving millions of lives. They now get to ride bikes with their children because of you.


[1:24:04] Dr. Terry Wahls: They have meaning to their life. That they have joy and purpose. Some people get on their bikes again, some do not, but some find that they still have a very meaningful and joyful life. That their purpose is modeling for their kids that you keep doing the best you can.


[1:24:27] Ashley James: Beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on the show today and sharing your story. We didn’t break down your diet specifically but those resources are available. I’d love for you to point us in that direction. Of course, listeners can buy your book. If a listener wants to adapt their diet to heal themselves using food as nutrition, what’s the best place that they can start?


[1:24:53] Dr. Terry Wahls: Go to my website terrywahls.com/diet. We have a one-page handout that’s a great resource. We have many, many resources on the website to get you going. I certainly want you to pick up the book. Even if you’ve gotten the first book, the new book has so much more research on epigenetics, the microbiome on neuro rehab. We have more details on oxalates, histamines, FODMAPs. I’ve added the Wahls elimination diet. We have a lot more information on ketosis, how we monitor it, and the many different ways of using fasting strategies to get into ketosis. It’s 30% new material. We have lots of bonuses that I talk about in the book that we’ll have for you. If you go to terrywahls.com/bonus, you’ll learn more about how to get those bonuses that you’d be able to get by ordering the book.


[1:26:01] Ashley James: Fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. It has been such a pleasure. You are welcome back. Anytime you want a platform to teach we would love to have you back. To wrap up today’s interview, is there anything left unsaid or anything you want to say to the listener, make sure that you leave the listener with?


[1:26:22] Dr. Terry Wahls: I’d like you to swap out the sugar for berries and to try having some more greens.


[1:26:30] Ashley James: Nine cups. I love it. Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to have you here today.


[1:26:39] Dr. Terry Wahls: Thank you.


[1:26:41] Outro: If you love this interview and you love the Learn True Health Podcast, please join Learn True Health Home Kitchen. You’re supporting the podcast and you’re also supporting yourself and your family and you’re continuing your education to learn how to achieve true health. This isn’t a diet. The membership isn’t a specific diet. It’s just teaching you how to eat more nutritious food, how to incorporate whole foods that are unprocessed into your diet in a way that your children will love, in a way that your whole family will love, in a way that is quick, and will save you money. We teach you how to save you time in the kitchen, money in the kitchen, and how to grow your health by using your kitchen.

So please, join Learn True Health Home Kitchen. Go to learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. That’s learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. We make the videos fun and we share wonderful, wonderful recipes. I’m so excited for you to join. The members, the listeners who have joined already have shared some amazing testimonials. One listener, within five days of beginning to incorporate what she learned from the membership her chronic headaches went away and her fatigue went away. How cool is that? So join the Learn True Health Home Kitchen. Go to learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. That’s learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. I can’t wait to see you there.


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CDr. Terry Wahls and Healing MS – Dr. Terry Wahls & Ashley James – #418

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Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 417. Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the Learn True Health podcast. In the light of the coronavirus, I’ve been in contact with several Naturopathic doctors and medical doctors who have their finger on the pulse of what’s going on right now around the world and have been watching the studies that have been coming out of China and other places. Interesting studies. Korea and China have found some things that are working better than just waiting it out. They’ve been publishing these. The doctors that I’ve been talking to have been putting their finger on the pulse and really making sure that they are prepared, and they’re letting all their patients know what they think they should do. I wanted to pass that information along to you.

Some people feel we’re overreacting with the quarantine, the self-quarantine. I live in the state of Washington and we are self-quarantined. Some people feel were under-reacting. Whatever your position is, we are all affected. Borders are shutting down, restaurants and bars are shutting down. We’re being asked to stay in our homes for the next few weeks. All the schools in Washington and several other states have shut down. Whatever your belief system is around the virus, whether you think it’s a conspiracy, whether you believe the mainstream narrative. Let’s err on the side of caution. Let’s not give in to panic because that lowers the immune system. Don’t allow fear to run your life because that lowers the immune system. Any virus can be potentially fatal depending on your health status.

We all have a family member or friend who is at risk, who’s vulnerable. Whether it’s a grandparent or a friend’s grandparent or a child with asthma, immunocompromised child. Maybe you’re in total health but others around you, others that you could have contact with may not be. The best thing to do is to err on the side of caution. If you can, if your family is capable of doing it, if this doesn’t affect the income of your family to self-quarantine, if you need to leave the house, obviously you’re taking measures like washing your hands and face. Also, take your shoes off and leave them outside of your home. Take your clothing off the moment you get home and throw it in the wash and take a shower right away. There’s certain things we can do to lower our exposure, but the fact is that this virus does live on surfaces up to I’ve heard nine days, I’ve heard 12 days. It can incubate in someone for up to 2 weeks. So you may have it right now and not know it for two weeks.

Again, giving in to fear will decrease our immune health. So what can we do? We can all take precautions. There are antiviral herbs. I’m going to give you a list of some herbs that you can add in your cooking, you can add in tea, you can take encapsulated form, you can take in tincture form or an essential oil form. You’re going to want to do your own research as to how much of these herbs to take. It’s best not to overdo anything. I’m also going to give you a list of some vitamins, some supplements that the Naturopathic doctors are telling their patients to take. There have been some studies that show that they help to give a positive outcome with the coronavirus.


Vitamin A

The first is vitamin A. If anyone is experiencing upper respiratory problems you can take high-dose vitamin A. This is according to a Naturopathic doctor that’s very experienced that I was talking to recently. He says for 3 days you can take 100,000 international units of vitamin A and that’s not beta-carotene. You want to get high-dose vitamin A that is not beta-carotene. Then after that, you can take 25,000 international units a day. This is just for preventive measures during the flu season or during an outbreak.


Vitamin C

Vitamin C. In China, they’re doing high-dose vitamin C intravenously. They’re showing that that has been creating positive outcomes with the coronavirus. For just a regular dose every day, take between 2,000 and 6,000 milligrams a day. You want to spread it out throughout the day so that you don’t get diarrhea because high dose vitamin C does cause diarrhea. It’s best to get powder. That way you can dose it slowly throughout the day. If you can get between 2,000 and 6,000 milligrams of vitamin C in you every day during flu season that would be fantastic.


Vitamin D

Vitamin D. If you have your levels tested every year and you know you’re low like let’s say your reading is below 40 for example, 40 or 30. Then you can easily take between 5,000 and 10,000 international units of vitamin D a day. These are all adult doses. You’d have to speak to your pediatrician about doses for children. My son, our pediatrician has him on 1,000 international units of vitamin D a day during the flu season.



Zinc. They have seen, there’s been a study on the Covid-19 coronavirus where they found that zinc and a malaria drug combined, they did this in China and they did it in Korea, but they used a different drug. That you’re using the drug in order to increase zinc’s intake. It increases the uptake of zinc into the cell. They’re finding that zinc stops the cell from producing RNA for the virus. That’s very promising. I’ve talked to several health professionals about this. We want to take zinc every day. This would be just a great general practice during the flu season anyway. The Mayo Clinic says that between 8 milligrams and 11 milligrams is a good recommended daily dose, but that seems kind of low. The National Institutes of Health consider that 40 milligrams a day for adults is the upper limit dose. They recommend not going above 40 milligrams a day and that they say four milligrams a day for infants under the age of six months. That’s the National Institute of Health.

Again, any supplementation for your children, I’d talk to a Naturopathic pediatrician, but there you have it with zinc, basically 40 milligrams or less a day. Taking any supplements in high doses can cause diarrhea or other symptoms. You want to start gradually, slowly, and increase to your bowel tolerance basically it says. It’s how they put it for vitamin C but also for zinc. High levels of zinc too can cause diarrhea as well as headaches and nausea.

Again, we don’t want to overdo anything. We don’t want to harm our body by freaking out and taking high doses of something that ends up causing other symptoms. The point is we just want to support the immune system. What’s been proven to be supportive is vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc. There are herbs that have several studies, many studies that support the body in fighting off viruses in general. There aren’t a lot of studies around Covid-19 specifically and herbs, but what we’re seeing is that there’s a lot of herbs out there that support the body. For example, basil.



There was a four-week study in 24 healthy adults were supplementing with 300 milligrams of holy basil extract significantly increased levels of helper T-cells and natural killer cells. They’re both immune cells that help protect and defend your body from viral infections. Things like holy basil, that’s something that you could eat every day in your food. You could put it in salads and soups or you could get an extract or an encapsulated form.


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Lemon Balm

Lemon balm is a fantastic antiviral. It’s great to make a tea out of it. A lot of these herbs, not all of them but a lot of them, you can mix together, buy in bulk. For example, mix together and just drink all day long as an herbal tea. So lemon balm, oregano, sage, fennel, garlic. Garlic is something I wouldn’t necessarily make a tea out of, but you can eat it raw and you can eat it cooked. Peppermint, rosemary. Rosemary has an extract that has been proven to be quite antiviral. Oleanolic acid in rosemary has been displayed to be quite antiviral in several studies against several different kinds of viruses.



Echinacea both is antiviral and boosts the immune system. That’s something again you can get in tea form. Herbal tea, if you take all these antiviral herbs and you mix it together and make a nice tea out of it, that’s very gentle for the body to take it all day long, drink it all day long. If you take capsules or if you take an extract that’s more concentrated and then you have to be careful with the dose. Whereas, it’s easier to dilute. Just take a tablespoon of each dry herb and make a big thing of tea like 60 ounces of tea and then you just sip it all day long. That’s more gentle and it’s less likely that you would accidentally overdose. Tea is the most gentle form of taking herbs. Then the next would be encapsulated. Then the more concentrated extracts or essential oils the more careful you have to be with overdosing.



Elderberry, I’m sure you’ve heard of elderberry extract. There have been several studies on elderberry that’s very exciting. It’s known to suppress viral replication and it stimulates the immune system. Even in a recent study, it showed that elderberry helped to inhibit viruses from entering our cells. That’s something that you can actually get your own elderberries and make your own elderberry syrup. Or you could just buy a bunch of elderberry syrup or you can buy a bunch of elderberries. Kids often love it because it is delicious. That’s definitely something to have stocked up on.



Licorice has been known, it’s been used in traditional Chinese medicine for centuries. You have to be careful with licorice if you have high blood pressure. Licorice also is fantastic for depression and anxiety and for people who have lethargy. It has shown to be antiviral against several viruses including severe acute respiratory syndrome-related coronaviruses.



Astragalus is another herb in traditional Chinese medicine that has shown to significantly enhance the immune system against viruses.



Ginger, and you know, I heard that there were stores that had completely sold out of ginger. I’m not surprised because you can make teas, you can cook with it, and you can make cough syrup with it. It has fantastic compounds that are antiviral, but that also help us throughout the flu season to mitigate several symptoms of the cold or flu.



Dandelion is wonderful to add to your herbal tea blends. It has many medicinal properties including a potent antiviral effect. Several studies showed that dandelion extract reduced or inhibited the replication of some viruses, but it also is wonderful for the liver and for our blood.

There are many different kinds of herbs that we can use. You can go on Google, find the herbs that you like and make a tea. You could buy them on Amazon or there are many co-ops online that will ship herbal blends to you. I say buy it in bulk. Pick a few that sound really delicious together like lemon balm, basil, sage, rosemary, echinacea. Get these loose-leaf basically and then mix them together and every day make a big tea. You don’t even have to heat it. You can put it in a big thing of water overnight and then just drink it the next day. It makes a beautiful tea. You can drink cold or you can drink hot. That way, you’re getting very gentle antiviral herbs into you and into your family and you’re hydrating.


Learn True Health Podcast Episodes 

Some episodes for you to listen to. Episode 315 of the Learn True Health podcast I share everything I’ve learned from Naturopaths for what to do when you have a cold or flu to boost the immune system and also to mitigate symptoms. You really want to listen to that episode. I talk about colloidal silver. I talk about specific essential oil blends for respiratory support. Use of the neti pot, use of hydrotherapy to boost the immune system and boost lymphatic flow. You’ll want to listen to episode 315.

Photo by Christin Hume on Unsplash


Episode 15

So to get to episode 15, you can’t listen to it on iTunes because only the most recent 300 episodes are available. Because this is episode 417, there are 117 episodes that have been pushed off of iTunes. You have to go to learntruehealth.com, my website, or other podcast directories like Spotify, iHeartRadio, and Google Podcasts. There are lots of other podcast directories that you can find episode 15 on or you just go to learntruehealth.com and find episode 15.

Dr. Jenna Jorgensen. She’s a Naturopathic physician and she shares exactly what she has in her medicinal holistic first aid kit and what you should have in your medicine cabinet. All the natural remedies from homeopathy, essential oils, and some really interesting things that you should have in your home for helping you with cold and flu and other just general stuff that happens. If you want to have a Naturopathic kit, basically, a first aid kit, then listen to episode 15 with Dr. Jenna Jorgensen.


Colloidal Silver

Colloidal silver is something that has been proven to be antiviral. You have to make sure that it’s a high-quality colloidal silver. I was just talking to my Naturopath about this last week. She and I both like the brand that Sovereign Silver. You can take it orally, you can gargle with it, and you can use it topically. Some Naturopaths talk about nebulizing it, so inhaling the fine particles. Consult your Naturopathic physician or consult your doctor about that, about nebulizing. The lungs really aren’t meant to have stuff in them. If you’re going to nebulize colloidal silver be very careful because there’s been evidence to suggest that it will accumulate, the colloidal silver would accumulate in the lungs. However, if you are fighting a viral infection, many Naturopaths talk about nebulizing colloidal silver and also nebulizing glutathione to support the lungs.

There are things that you can do to support the lungs using natural medicine, but again, talk to a Naturopathic physician about these specifically. I really want to err on the side of caution here. Don’t just nebulize things randomly as a preventative because you could end up doing damage. We really want to be very careful.

There was several people that died recently in the Middle East because they read something on social media that some kind of rubbing alcohol if they drank it would be a cure for coronavirus. Of course, that killed them. I know you guys, my listeners, are so smart. You guys are smart. You guys wouldn’t buy into a fake meme. I want us to also not overreact. I want us to not under-react, but I definitely don’t want to overreact and an overdose on a natural substance. It’s best to do this all in balance. Before you take anything, just do a little bit of digging and talk to a Naturopathic physician to create your perfect formula of natural immune supportive supplements that you could be taking.

Supplements are generally very, very safe. It is when we go into high doses for long periods of time that we can do damage. So stay within those parameters and just err on the side of caution. Start slow and work your way up like vitamin C. Start with 1000 milligrams and then slowly ramp it up to bowel tolerance. Those are things that are totally proven to be safe.

The best thing we can do is to decrease our stress levels is to err on the side of caution to stay at home as much as possible. You know what’s really interesting? I bet we see a huge decrease in all infections. If you think about it, if we all stay at home as much as possible, we’re probably going to see a huge decrease in all affections across the board. A huge decrease in the spread of all infections. If you can’t stay at home, practice more self-care to decrease stress levels. I’m seeing so many people are so afraid right now. The best thing you can do for your immune system is to stay informed, stay calm. Maybe when you’re drinking your antiviral tea every day, you can imagine that it is supportive of your body every time you sip it, you could imagine that you’re supporting yourself, and your body is strong and healthy and then everyone you love is going to be healthy and safe.

We can just support each other by letting everyone know that we can take vitamin A, vitamin C, vitamin D, zinc, and elderberry and other herbs to support our body in the best way we can. Everything that I’ve shared today, I want to make it really clear, I’m not sharing a cure. I’m not saying that any of this will even prevent coronavirus, but what the studies are showing and what the doctors have told me is that these herbs and these supplements support the body. So they might help to mitigate symptoms. In China, several studies are showing that with the use of vitamin C and zinc and other nutrients that they’re finding that those people have better outcomes with their infection. That they have a higher success rate of thriving and living when they used vitamin C when they used other nutrients and herbs versus nothing at all.

Of course, we want to do the best we can to support our body’s ability to heal itself and stay healthy. Please, support yourself by not giving in to the overwhelm. By doing what you can daily to lower your stress levels. Get out in nature. Get out in sunlight. There are studies that show that sunlight is antiviral and getting out in fresh air, grounding yourself. Go stand out in your backyard with your feet in the ground or go lie down in the grass if you can. Go for nature walks. Read some books. Unplug from social media and do things that will decrease your stress. Now is a great time to pull out those board games and play with your family. Please, make an antiviral tea. Take these supplements to support your body’s ability to stay as healthy as it can.



Join our Facebook group, the Learn True Health Facebook group. We have many health professionals in that Facebook group, and we’re all sharing great information, staying up to date with what we can do to support our immune system and support each other. Please, come join the Learn True Health Facebook group. Although I just said stay off of social media, but it’s a really positive place to be, the Learn True Health Facebook group. We’re trying to keep it a very happy and positive place, but also supporting all of our health questions with great information. If you’re looking for a good resource, come join the Learn True Health Facebook group. I’m going to have some great doctors on the show coming up soon to support us around this as well. Please, just keep focusing on decreasing your stress and self-care. I love you all. We’re all going to get through this together. Have yourself a fantastic rest of your day.


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Coronavirus and Natural Medicine – Ashley James – #417

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Caroline Cory and Ashley James 


  • Why the Superhuman film was created
  • How to encourage DNA repair
  • What vibrational methodology is
  • The merging process
  • Release blocks before setting specific intent
  • Importance of getting to the root cause


In this episode, Caroline Cory shares how people not trained with telekinesis can change pH in water; and how blindfold perception were able to do those. She also talks about the importance of releasing blocks before setting specific intent.



Hello, true health seekers and welcome to another exciting episode of Learn True Health podcast. If you love the Learn True Health podcast, as I know you do, come join our membership go to learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. That’s a learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. We have some wonderful lessons on boosting the immune system and foods that you can use that are in your kitchen right now to fight off viruses. Come join the Learn True Health Home Kitchen and learn how to use food as medicine to heal your body and keep you healthy. Learntruehealth.com/homekitchen.


[0:00:42] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 416. I am so excited for today’s guest. We have on the show Caroline Cory, who’s an award-winning filmmaker. Oh man, I love your most recent movie Superhuman: The Invisible Made Visible. You produced some wonderful documentaries. I really am excited for my listeners to check out your documentaries because they’re so relevant to helping people heal their bodies. We get to a point where we’re trying everything, we’re trying all kinds of physical medicine or maybe we have emotional work to go through or maybe we’re really stuck in our life. The one thing we’re not tapping into, which is our most powerful tool, is our mind and our consciousness and our mind’s ability to shape and change our reality. I know that sounds like a bunch of new-age stuff, but your movie goes through the science of it. You have so many wonderful science experiments with PhDs who do this for a living. By the end of the movie, you walk away a believer that the mind has the ability to change our reality and our mind shapes our reality. It can be a very beautiful thing to cultivate that. Caroline, welcome to the show.

Photo by Ahmad Ossayli on Unsplash


[0:02:19] Caroline Cory: Hey, Ashley. Thanks for having me. It’s great to connect with you. You said it, it’s exactly what you said. We don’t talk about this that much. Actually, I take that back. Everybody’s been telling us and we’ve been hearing over and over that the mind affects our body, our health, our stress level. Even in the mainstream medical field, we know now that meditation is helpful for reducing stress and imbalances and things like that. What I wanted to do with this film is to take it to the next level. It’s not just theory anymore, it’s like show me how. How it’s possible that the mind is actually having a physiological effect on my body? That’s exactly why I made this film because it’s no longer new age stuff, just theory. This is the proof, this is the demonstration, these are the devices, this is the science and this is very real, very measurable.


[0:03:30] Ashley James: I like that you said the mind is having a physiological effect on the body.


[0:03:36] Caroline Cory: Yeah, measurable.


[0:03:39] Ashley James: It’s measurable. You can see it. My experience of this, back in 2005, I became a master practitioner trainer of neuro-linguistic programming timeline therapy and hypnosis. I often attended the American Board of Hypnotherapy conventions that they would have. Actually, the last one must have just happened, but it was every President’s Day. They did it for like 20 years. They would have, as the opening evening, it was like Friday evening, they would have all of us in a big ballroom. There’d be two or three or a hundred or thousand or however many people there are. It was a big ballroom, lots of people. The first event would be this man who is a Ph.D. professor. He taught at one of those big universities in California. He would come on stage. He was very factual and he talked about telekinesis. Of course, we’re all like, “Okay, this is a little out there. We’re at hypnotherapy convention.” His day job is teaching physics. He believes in reality and in measuring reality, he’s a physicist. He would take this giant iron bar that was maybe two inches thick, a very big iron bar used in making the railroads. He would have us all come up and touch it and pound on it and feel that it was absolutely solid. It was solid. It was not a magic act at all. It was solid.

He would hold it in both hands. He would pause and he would meditate with it. Then he turned it to a pretzel. We’d gasp like, “What just happened?” Then he’d say, “Okay. Now, feel it. Touch it.” Again, we’d come up and it would be completely solid. Then he’d spend the next few minutes explaining what happened. That our mind has the ability to speed up the matter, to speed up all the electrons and all the matter inside that iron bar to the point where he could mold it. Then he’d teach us how to do it. We’d all be holding lots of cutlery. He’d hand out silver cutlery so we’re all holding—I remember holding a knife and my friend, who’s also from Canada, was holding a fork. She and I had known each other for several years. I’ve known her not to have some superhuman powers. She was just regular like me. She’s holding the fork and she’s practicing what he said to do, which is with your mind imagine that the spoon is bending or that the fork is bending. Imagine that you’re speeding up the electrons.

I was having a hard time because I really wanted it, my knife, I really wanted my knife to move. I really, really, really wanted it. I just desperately wanted it too much and I wasn’t actually just doing it. Kind of like if you have your arm resting and you just say, “I really want to move my arm.” But you don’t actually just do it. Wanting it doesn’t happen. Wanting doesn’t make it happen but doing it does. I was not as successful as I was doing it. I looked over at my friend who was holding the fork. She’s holding the base of the fork. She’s holding it up in front of her looking at the four tongs of the fork. I’d believe you if someone told me that they like dropped acid in my water before the event because I watched, as she was just gently staring at it, and I watched as every single tongue moved away from each other and then curled up. They all curled together. I looked around the room and some people were successful, some people weren’t. I watched as people, with their minds, bent spoons, twisted knives around.

Some people would hold the knife and they’d sort of warm-up the molecules with their mind and the knife would be malleable. They could turn it to a pretzel and then it would harden again. Whereas some people could just look at the object and move it. He would come every year to the American Board of Hypnotherapy Convention. It was the highlight of the weekend, obviously. Seeing that with my own eyes left me, obviously, questioning my reality, but also left me in awe of the untapped potential of the human mind.


[0:08:27] Caroline Cory: Exactly. Absolutely. That’s it. People don’t realize that this is real. They can do this. That’s what I was trying to do with the film to make it very kind of an everyday thing. That’s why we didn’t just show people who are super trained. I had, in fact, guests who had never done anything like this. They would come. We would teach them in a couple of hours the basis of telekinesis and they would be able to move stuff like it’s no big deal. That is exactly what I want people to take away from this. It’s just an untapped potential, an untapped power. We just have to do it like you said. Stop talking about it. Let’s just do it. What was the name of this physicist?


[0:09:26] Ashley James: I knew you’re going to ask me that. I forget his name off top of my head, but if I remember I’ll tell you. I think he has since retired. It’s been a few years since I’ve been back to the conventions.


[0:09:41] Caroline Cory: There’s a lot of people as you saw in the film as well. There are quite a few scientists that we were able to bring together in the film. Of course, doing four different subjects. That’s exactly what I want people to take away from this. It’s not just a theory when they see other people on camera. Don’t forget, it’s even harder when we’re filming because you have this stress. You want to succeed. Even though it’s edited eventually, but then it’s one take. We don’t cut when we are doing the experiment, during the experiment. You can literally see the object move. It’s even more stressful like I said because you have cameras all around us. You have staff looking. The crew looking at it. “Is this going to work? Is this going to work?” It’s that much more tension and stress on you. Even under those conditions, when it works, it’s pretty amazing. That’s what I’m hoping people will realize to just try it. In fact, we’re doing a seminar. We’re doing workshops teaching everything that’s in the film. The telekinesis, the change in the pH in the water, the blindfold perception everything that’s in there we’re teaching in workshops. Because of the reaction of the people who are watching, like the crew, for example, some of them were kind of familiar with the topic. Most of them weren’t. When they would see this, their reaction would be like, “Wow. Wait a minute. I want to do this. Can I try this How come this person could do it the first time?

In fact, I keep getting just from the trailer that’s been out there now a few months so people are sending us texts and emails like, “Hey, are you teaching this? Where can I learn this? My kid wants to learn this.” It’s really more pop culture than we think. If it’s packaged and presented in the right way as opposed to this kind of strange new age thing that only a few people can do. You know what I mean? It’s just like, “Hey. It’s just a real thing. Have fun with it. You are your own superhero.” That’s what it’s about.


[0:12:27] Ashley James: I love it. Talking about the real applications of you go through in your movie and you show how we can use our mind to change pH really quickly. Within minutes, you can actually. There’s a great scientific experiment in a lab where you change the pH of water with your mind. Be able to move things with your mind. What I love is that your friend, who had an eye condition that left her almost blind, it was very hard for her to see. Within two weeks of using these techniques, she was able to read again. Not because she healed her eye but because she was able to perceive letters with her mind. That they’re using these techniques to teach blind people how to even see and read. You have these video, the part of the movie is following these children who become blindfolded and are able to read books blindfolded and able to run outside and play soccer blindfolded. It’s something that even adults can be trained to do to be able to perceive reality.

What you proposed was that you and the PhDs that you’re working with propose that, our order is wrong. We think our eyes perceive things, the messages get sent to our brain, and then we perceive reality. What it’s being proposed is that we are actually perceiving reality before our eyes perceive it. That our eyes kind of are the secondary system to go, “Okay, yes. I thought that was there and it actually is there.” Our brain has the ability to both intake and perceive information from the outside world, but also to influence it.


[0:14:35] Caroline Cory: Yeah. It’s consciousness if you will because your consciousness is non-local so it’s tapping into a unified field. It’s tapping into an information field whether you know it or not, whether you feel it or not, you understand or not. You are bigger than your body so your consciousness is constantly retrieving that information first. Then the brain, the physical brain, translates that information into a visual data. Then you see or you hear what your consciousness had already tapped into. It is the other way around. Whereas we are not just taught, but we’re literally programmed to think that what you see is what is real, what you see or what you hear is what is. Everything else doesn’t exist. That’s a big problem because, first of all, the order is wrong, like you just said. Also, if you keep convincing yourself that it’s only what you see and what you hear that exists and nothing else counts, it’s almost like you’re discounting what your consciousness is doing spontaneously, which is tapping spontaneously in this unified information field all the time and retrieving this information all the time.

This is a paradigm shift. This is a completely different perspective on reality. We show this in the film. It’s not just a few kids somewhere in the UK because they’re doing the specific training. They’re all over. We went to Utah, we went to Germany, Russia, Romania. There’s a lot of groups that we didn’t even include in the film. Mexico, India. We just want to—it’s obvious if the film gets very, very long so we just went to enough places, shown enough people of all ages, different backgrounds. By the way, the methodology is actually different.

Some folks use a vibrational methodology, meaning they’re tapping into the information field through vibration, reading the information as a vibration, and then translating it into a visual data. This is one group. The other groups do something completely different. They use visualization and, of course, intent. Especially with the kids, it’s so easy to teach the kids basically. Really allowing your consciousness to be in the universe, accept that you are everywhere in the universe, that there’s light everywhere, and then to bring that through the physical brain, the physical body, and translate that into the visual data. Then you start to see. It sounds crazy but it works. It’s in the film. There are people from all over doing it.


[0:17:56] Ashley James: I want to back up and get to know you a little bit, get to know why did you create this film? What happened in your life? Because this is a huge project. This is a huge project that took years and a lot of energy, a lot of time and money to create this beautiful documentary. What happened in your life that motivated you to put forth the effort to build this and create this documentary?


[0:18:30] Caroline Cory: Actually, since I was very, very young, even at the age of five, I could perceive subtle energy, not just aura, but I could see basically the energy field around people. People’s consciousness. I could just look at them and know everything about them. Of course, I was five years old so I thought it was like, “Oh, everybody can do this.” I didn’t think I was anything special or it wasn’t anything special. I just kind of went along with that. I don’t know if you want to call it ability because I think everybody can do this. What happened is that because it was so spontaneous, I also had an experience where I could kind of hear telepathically, kind of communicate telepathically. What started to happen was not so much like, “Oh, wow. This is happening to me.” It was more like how is this happening? What is the mechanism that allowed me to do this when nobody else, for example, could see the subtle energy or could understand certain things before they happened and things like that?

I kept kind of wanting to know the mechanics of this. As I grew up, of course, I went into the field of psychology. In college, I studied psychology. By the time I got to graduate school, it was like, “This is not even close. We’re missing a whole field of understanding.” I continue to explore and research and really bring my own knowledge from my own experiences. For example, I would look at someone and I knew the root cause of their whatever illness or struggle. They had been trying different kinds of healing methods and doing psychotherapy for 20 years. They were still exactly at the same place. Then when I would tell them, “Oh, yeah. Well, you have this because in the past life you had this and that or because before you were born you’re supposed to come in with a twin brother but this happened. Things like that. It was like I was able to pinpoint the root cause and exactly at that time their problem would go away.

This was validation for me. It was like, “Okay, I’m not crazy. This is real. I am tapping into an information field that is accurate. I just have to train myself to make sure that I’m not projecting, that I’m not mixing with my own interpretation and things like that.” This was my personal training that allowed me to develop a whole methodology. How do you stay out of the objective observation? How do you then shift the energy field? 

It took me 20 years to develop a methodology in energy medicine for healing and also for consciousness expansion. I started teaching other people to read the energy field in this way and to go directly to the root cause and the method. It’s not just one way, it’s many different ways. It’s color, its sound, its geometry, it’s zero point. There are all kinds of techniques altogether.

I did that for a long time. Even though, for example, I was working with people who had a cyst. We would do one session and the cyst is suddenly gone. You could see it on an ultrasound. One minute it’s here the other minute it’s gone. People with cancer. Even though I had so much validation and even my students, people who were studying it, had so much validation this stuff works, it’s very strange. It’s almost like I still had to go to the next level. It’s like I had to not just go from the experience of, “Hey, you had this condition and now you don’t” or “you were stuck in your life and now you’re not.” Going from the experiential to the actual scientific demonstration. It’s almost like people still need this additional validation to prove to themselves that they have this healing power. It wasn’t a fluke.

That’s the reason why the subject itself was very easy to me because everything I said, it took me my whole lifetime to explore the mechanics of consciousness on matter, in the physical world, in other dimensional fields, what-have-you. It was more like I need to at this point go beyond the experiential and bring the data. The scientific validation, demonstrations. That is the reason why I had to make this film. I wanted to also invite people who had never done anything like this before to take part in the experiments, in the demonstrations to show that anybody can do this. I wanted to bring some credible scientists, not just a few people who are just in, again, in the new age field.


[0:24:35] Ashley James: Woowoo?


[0:24:36] Caroline Cory: Yeah. Yeah. I think I managed to do that. That’s the reason why I ended up making this film investing so much of my time, energy, and money. I think it was worth it. I think it’s worth it.


[0:24:51] Ashley James: I think it was worth it too. This isn’t your first movie. You’ve made other movies.


[0:24:58] Caroline Cory: Yeah. Again, because I had so many experiences with otherworldly beings. When I was five, that one experience that I had, I realized that I wasn’t just looking at people’s energy field, but I could see beings, I could see angels, I could see spirits. It was obviously nothing scary. It’s not like in the movies where you see dead people, it’s so scary. It was nothing like that. It was beautiful, angelic, light beings. I could feel them, I could talk to them. I would see the type of energy they had and what they were doing here on earth and things like that.

That also stayed with me my whole life. I kept kind of, not just thinking or feeling that somebody was there, I would literally see them. Because of that, I also felt that I needed to demonstrate, that we’re surrounded by so many types of beings and what those worlds were about. That was my last film called Among Us, but I think it’s more specialized tactile. It attracts more people who are really into the subject whereas this current film is more helpful. It’s more like you can apply what you learn in the film to your daily life. Especially the experiment we did with pH.

There was a physicist—William Tiller actually did a famous experiment with pH. He was able to demonstrate that a group of, I think it was his students at the time, they would focus on a water sample and they were just intended to increase the pH or change the pH and it would happen. They did that scientifically. They did that study. I think he published that study. I believe it was in the 80s. Anyway, so this showed at the time that your consciousness, your mind can literally change the chemistry of water. I wanted to replicate this.

I worked a lot with water and DNA with another scientist, Glenn Rein. The reason why I had to include this in the film and why this is so important is because if you are able to change the chemistry of water that’s sitting in front of you, it means that you can change the chemistry of your body. That’s the point. That’s the point of this whole film. It’s not about moving the piece of metal. It’s not about the piece of metal. It’s not about the water. It’s about you having those abilities. Especially water because we hear so much about higher pH and water and people are selling these 9 plus pH water bottles and things like that. Obviously, an alkaline environment is not conducive to illness. I mean the virus cannot survive. We know that an alkaline environment is better for your health, not too much alkaline, but, again, a balance.

I wanted to demonstrate that on the film. It took a few minutes, but the other one with the DNA, I did that many times the DNA test where I was able to change the electricity in the DNA. That literally happens in seconds. I can zap that thing.


[0:29:16] Ashley James: For those who haven’t seen it, explain the experiment so we get the full picture.


[0:29:23] Caroline Cory: What happens, first of all, when we set up these experiments, of course, we’re editing a film, and so we can’t show the hours and hours and hours of preparation that goes into each experiment. Basically, what we do, let’s say we want to test the conductivity and change the electricity in a DNA sample. We have to measure this electrical conductivity in that same sample over a long period of time, get specific measurements. This is kind of like we get a baseline meaning over several days, over several hours this is the measurement of the electrical conductivity in this sample. Then at a specific point, I come in, or whoever comes in, and with the intent starts to interfere, intervene with that sample and trying to change. In our case, we wanted to increase the electrical conductivity in the water. Then let’s say at 3:00 PM the experiment starts from 3:00 PM-3:15 PM and then we do it again from 4:00 PM-4:15 PM, 5:00 PM-5:15 PM.

We have this measurement over a long period of time. We notice that exactly between 3:00 PM-3:15 PM, 4:00 PM-4:15 PM is exactly when the electrical conductivity changed dramatically. All the other times it would go back to the original baseline. This means this time correlation tells us that at those specific times, the intent of the observer or the person that’s doing the experiment has an effect, has a measurable effect. Scientifically, that’s how it works. Of course, we have to repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. In the film, we talk about the baseline, measuring the baseline. Then we show on camera how it changes.

I’ve done this experiment with DNA before. What I notice is that DNA responds very, very quickly like literally in seconds. Whereas the pH it takes a few minutes, which is still pretty good. What happens is that when you change the electrical conductivity—in this film, I think it showed about 100% jump. Other films I did it again and other places I did and it would jump to 400%. This is very significant because the electrical conductivity in the DNA was shown to increase its ability to self-repair. They had done a study, this is California Tech Institute I believe, they had done a study to measure or to see a correlation at least between the electrical conductivity in a DNA sample with its relationship to self-correct. If you have any sort of imbalance, any sort of something not working and you increase the electricity in the DNA sample, you basically restore its original kind of pattern if you will. That is huge. Imagine that you can do that in 10seconds. I did it in 10 seconds in the film.

This means that your mind, your consciousness can self-repair help your DNA to self-repair. If that is not significant I’m not sure what is.

Photo by Holger Link on Unsplash


[0:33:26] Ashley James: That is wonderfully significant. How would one go about encouraging the DNA to repair? Would we send love to our DNA? How would one do that?


[0:33:45] Caroline Cory: That’s what I was saying. We are now teaching workshops. I’m also writing a book. It’s more of a manual exactly for that. First of all, to understand like anything else it’s you, it’s your consciousness so you have to prepare just like in anything. You have to know what type of state your consciousness has to be in, what type of meditation needs to happen that is more useful because everybody meditates differently. People say, “Oh, I just meditate. I do mindfulness. I do this or I do that.” Well, yeah. To me, every type of meditation does something different. 

You have to do the meditation that works for what you are trying to do in this experiment. In this experiment you want your mind to be very very fast, very very accurate, very very precise. You want it to be very quiet. That’s the reason why it’s a specific meditation. Actually, I have one that’s online. It’s free of charge if people want to take a look at that. It may look or sound like a simple meditation but actually, it has, if you want, the pattern to get you to that point of specificity and aligning your mind channels very specifically. That’s the preparation.

Then you also have to understand, which was very very interesting actually, working with all of these devices. It is not the same when you are trying to affect water. It’s not the same as trying to affect a piece of an electronic device or an electrical device. It’s completely different or to move a piece of paper or to try to influence a metal like you were saying earlier. It’s a different feeling. It’s almost like you notice that the biological substance, like DNA or water, responds to your, I don’t want to say command but you know what I mean, to you intent let’s say in a very different way than does the spoon that you’re trying to bend. You have to kind of know all of these things so that you know how to approach whatever it is you’re trying to influence.

If you’re working on your body, of course sending love and all of that is great. You want to be more specific. You also want to be aware of what’s coming up for you and release that. For example, that’s part of the preparation. As soon as you sit down and you try to do something like that I can see the people’s mind chatter kicks in like, “Wait. Can I do this? Is this going to work? I don’t know. Maybe other people can do it. Am I gifted?” All this mind chatter are blocks. You can’t start the experiment if you have all these blocks. Part of the preparation is to release these blocks, to know when you are really energetically ready. Then begin the influencing of whatever it is that you want. If it’s the DNA then you focus on the DNA. Then you basically set your intent for something specific. For example, it was very specific. I want the electrical conductivity to increase. You can say, “I want to get my cancer.” That’s still too general.

I find that it’s more efficient if you have more specific intents. If you have more details as to—for example, what is contributing to your current imbalance? It’s that much better than you target that imbalance. It’s the thyroid or it’s the chemistry and this part of my body and so on and so forth. Does that make sense?


[0:38:22] Ashley James: Absolutely, I remember in one of my trainings back in 2005, there was an MD, a doctor, who was studying along with us. We came to this exercise using a pendulum. The pendulum was just a biofeedback. We would swing it and it would go from—one it would start swinging let’s say northeast, northeast and then it would go up like a sunrise and start then going towards north-south, north-south. It’s just kind of like arced. We would say to it, as it was arcing upwards, we would say as this goes, as this moves up progressively. It’s swinging going from one direction to arcing to swinging going to a different direction, my metabolism is increasing. This doctor just totally didn’t believe it at all. It’s not a placebo because he thought this was just ridiculous. He actually said it, “The mind cannot affect the body. I’ve spent eight years in medical school. The mind cannot affect the body. It’s not possible.” I don’t know why he was taking these trainings, but he said the mind can’t affect the body. Probably just to be a better doctor, have more tools in his tool belt. He said, “The mind can’t affect the body. This is ridiculous.”

He actually was the demo. Our teacher brought him up in front of the class to teach this. The fact that he totally didn’t believe in it and thought it was a sham was great. Because what happened was as he’s doing it, so he just says to his mind, unconscious mind, “Raise my metabolism and show me that you’re raising my metabolism by the movement of the pendulum.” We’re using as a biofeedback so the micro muscle movement, we’re not moving it with our mind. This is not telekinesis. It’s simply, the unconscious mind can control micro muscle movements in the fingers. He’s just holding it there but his unconscious mind is moving it. We’re watching. As it’s moving up, he wasn’t surprised that the pendulum was moving, he had moved a pendulum before. His unconscious mind has moved a pendulum before. It wasn’t a big deal. 

We noticed that his neck started to get really red. The redness move up his face. By the time the redness had crept up to his eyes, beads of sweat began to form on his brow. He yelled out, “This is impossible. What is going on? I’m so hot.” He throws the pendulum. He’s ripping off his coat, his blazer and unloosening his tie. He’s sort of angry. He says, “This is impossible. The mind cannot affect the body.” He’s fighting with it because he saw with his own eyes and experienced in his own body that his intention, his mind’s intention to increase his metabolism and the command he gave it, he gave it a conscious intention to his unconscious mind. His unconscious mind communicated back that he was doing it, that it was doing it. Just with the intention of his mind within seconds, it wasn’t even a minute, it was like maybe 30 seconds, he raises metabolism to the point where he was sweating and had a huge flush of blood flow and heats. He was very hot, his whole body was hot.

That kind of blew us away too because he didn’t believe in it so it’s not a placebo effect. He had to really re-examine his eight years in medical school because the mind absolutely affects the body. What does that mean? We’re walking around listening to other people’s suggestions, the media suggestions about our health. How much does that play a role in how we create our reality and how we create ill health?


[0:43:06] Caroline Cory: Absolutely. Look at the commercials. Every two seconds there’s a commercial on a drug because we’re all going to get sick by the time we’re 50. Women are going to develop that and men are going to be that. It’s like we’re definitely programmed to become ill. This is fascinating this story you just told about this. I have to say, the fact that he was even in that class, a part of him, I think his unconscious mind, totally believed in it. It’s his conscious mind, it’s his logical mind that doesn’t even want to go there because of his medical training. It’s like he’s not going to reexamine what he spent eight years or ten years or whatever that is. He’s not going to question that, but unconsciously, that’s what brought him to the class. Of course, that’s what demonstrated the effect.

Also, you bring up the point that we don’t even have to believe. I mean, it’s better if we believe because it’s more efficient and faster, but even if we don’t believe there’s still something happening. Even if we don’t believe consciously, I want to say. It still works.


[0:44:29] Ashley James: Belief is not required for your consciousness to affect your body because it always is affecting your body. You prove that in your movie with all the different scientific experiments you did. That our consciousness is constantly talking to our DNA, talking to every molecule in our body. Even across the country, across the world. You did an experiment where you were able to move an object in a vacuum across the United States, which goes to show that we have this. We’re connected to this morphic field, this energy field that is this earth. There are so many experiments. You want to highlight another one that so people can understand that they have the ability, they have tools to unlock inside them that can help them to achieve their health goals?


[0:45:31] Caroline Cory: Yeah. The pH and the DNA is extremely useful for an everyday life thing because every day you are dealing with chemistry: food, even your mood, the hormones that get released in your brain, your emotions. Your chemistry is changing all day long. I feel like this one experiment should empower people to remember that during the day like, “Wait, I feel off. So I just ate something and it just doesn’t feel right.” Instead of ignoring it or saying, “Oh, it’ll go away,” or “it’s just indigestion.” or whatever that is. To start to gravitate to have a reaction, a spontaneous reaction to say, “Wait, I can change the chemistry in my digestive system right now.” I feel that one is very useful on a day-to-day basis.

The other experiments, for example, the one that we did with the long distance, the remote viewing and of course the telekinesis and the blindfold. For example, the remote viewing, that one I feel also is very empowering for people to just remember that all these crazy synchronicities that happen in their life is not even on a day-to-day basis is not synchronicity. It’s like your brain and your consciousness is tapped into a universal consciousness, a collective consciousness. Everybody’s tapped into the same field so why is it so crazy to think that, “Oh, I just thought of Ashley and then the phone rings and it’s her. Wow.” This is not like weird stuff. 

Actually, there’s science. Scientists have also demonstrated and proven entanglement meaning that two particles at a distance can actually exchange properties. They don’t even have to connect with each other. The property of one particle can be transferred to another and affect the other and vice versa. Not just in a small way but even on a cosmic way like a star in the sky can do that with another star. This was demonstrated scientifically.

If you just allow yourself to imagine that or just believe that this is real, this is the mechanics of who we are. Stop calling it like, “Hey, it’s a fluke. It’s synchronicity. It’s luck,” but use this mechanism for your benefit. For example, I’m about to take a trip somewhere or for example, my son is on a trip and I haven’t heard from him in ten days. I’m worried, what’s going on? For example, I can use this understanding, the mechanics of our consciousness to know that we are entangled. If I train myself, there’s a method that I call the merging process, you can pick up that information accurately every single time. 

That’s why I showed the remote-viewing experiment in the film. It was used by governments around the world to spy on other governments. If this was a woowoo thing, they’re not going to spend 20 years and millions of dollars investigating. It was accurate to a point especially the Russians and the Chinese too. They were able to read documents and see what’s inside the drawer remotely or know exactly where the rockets were. That is very precise. If at that level of government level, if that doesn’t bring validation and also with this scientific explanation and demonstration of how entanglement works, we can start to use it in our daily life and manifest so many things, feel so much better of how we are interacting with the rest of the universe and use that to our benefit and manifest our daily reality differently.


[0:50:35] Ashley James: In the Bible, in the Old Testament, Genesis 1:27 it says that God made us in His image. I’ve always been curious about that ever since I was a child. It really dawns on me that what if this is what he meant, made in His image. Not that God has ten fingers and ten toes and walks around with a big beard. He’s about 6’2” with blue eyes. Not in his image physically like we’re taking it literally, but in His image in that he gave us the ability to be connected. We’re connected in this morphic field. You talk about in your movie, trees they can measure it and prove it, but trees have an energy field that talks to each other, communicates to each other when a storm is coming when there’s a threat nearby. Even there’s a mycelial network that all living things that are connected there, all plants connect through the mycelial network and communicate that way. More so that they’re able to communicate long distances through this morphic field. This resonance that were a part of that animals can sense it and communicate and we also too are part of it. That we can both perceive it and also affect it with our consciousness. What if that’s what God meant by in His image? That he gave us this tool to shape our reality.


[0:52:25] Caroline Cory: Exactly. I totally agree. When we talk about that, to me it has to do with being omniscient, omnipresent, omnipresence. Of course, we’re not talking on a Creator level, but it’s kind of like a smaller version of that potential. Omniscience is the ability to tap into all of the knowledge in the universe. Does it even make sense that animals communicate that way, trees communicate that way but not humans? It doesn’t even make sense that certain things have been proven, have been demonstrated on an animal level and then it goes kind of strange when we talk about it in terms of human beings. It’s the same mechanics. If anything, it’s even more sophisticated.

I feel like tapping into the knowledge of the universe spontaneously without going through a third party. Directly being tapped into the source of all of the information, all of healing, clarity, guidance; it’s all there. I feel that’s exactly it that we are connected. I think that is the definition of as above so below and being in His image. It doesn’t even make sense for it to be otherwise. Sometimes if you look around and there’s millions and millions of breeds of animals of flowers and trees and insects. Look up in the sky. The stars, billions of stars and galaxies and universe and multiverses. 

Whoever created this or however that whole thing was created, does it even make sense that there would be one species called the human being that would not be able, that would be completely isolated on this one planet and not be able to communicate with anything? Not communicate even with themselves. You know what I mean? It doesn’t even make sense that whatever divine intelligence, whatever mechanics is behind all of this, it doesn’t make sense to not think that it is all connected. You’re a part of this larger mold. If you’re a part of it, then you are it. It’s like your hand. Your hand is part of your whole body. Whatever your hand feels, you feel. Whatever your hand is doing you know what it’s doing and vice versa. You know if you’re going through something, your hand is going to feel it. It’s like that. We’re an extension. We’re part of this larger consciousness, universal consciousness of all that is.


[0:55:50] Ashley James: A very famous experiment was done in DC several years ago where they try to affect the crime rates in DC. At the beginning, the Chief of Police was not on board, he was not supportive. By the end of the summer, they had had such a drastic decrease in the crime rates in DC that the Chief of Police became an absolute supporter. How they dropped the rates of crime so significantly in DC was they meditated on peace. They got thousands of people together and they meditated. They focused their consciousness on peace. People focusing their consciousness on peace with the intention of peace we’re able to drop the crime rates. 

How is it that some hardened thug with a gun who’s down on their luck and wants to rob a convenience store who doesn’t give to any things about some monks down the street meditating. The people that do the violence right, all the violent crimes, those guys don’t care that there’s someone meditating for them to be peaceful. They really don’t. Yet somehow, the consciousness of a few thousand people were able to calm, to ground, to make these criminals choose a different path, a peaceful path.


[0:57:27] Caroline Cory: Yeah, exactly. This was done several times actually with the Dean Radin’s the random generator, the random number generator that measures collective consciousness. It works in the same way as you would have a hurricane category 5 that would completely destroy an entire neighborhood and there’s this one house that’s not the most stable house or solid house and yet it’s standing. It goes to show that you can still create your reality within the larger reality. The problem becomes when we think that we are here to change the world and so we want everybody to change in order for things to work. We want people to believe what we believe and have better systems and be fair and be honest and things like that. That doesn’t work. If we understand the principle of consciousness, I feel like consciousness is the behind-the-scenes power that we have.

You don’t really change the pattern or the behavior of a person, you affect their consciousness, which then, in turn, affects their behavior.


[0:59:10] Ashley James: Oh, sure.


[0:59:11] Caroline Cory: That’s the reason why a lot of clashes happen when we want somebody else to be convinced of our truth because we’re going head to head a neurological human mind trying to convince them that our truth is the better truth as opposed to simply tapping into the larger consciousness and pouring into the larger consciousness what we believe in. It doesn’t mean that you are being sneaky about it, it’s just that you are pouring your truth. If many people are pouring the same truth then eventually, it affects whoever is open to that truth because they’re still free will.

On some higher level, this thug in DC that was just about to rob the 7-Eleven that his conscious mind would say, “Hey, I’m going to rob this 7-Eleven and that’s that,” but on a higher honor, he’s tapped into the same consciousness field that everybody else is. On a higher level, his higher consciousness, kind of changed. Something happened in that field and told him, “Maybe not today. Let’s take a break.” He was on some level open to it. He didn’t understand it himself on a conscious mind, but on this higher consciousness level, everyone is tapped into this. Everyone can receive that inspiration, that shift if they’re open to it.


[1:00:58] Ashley James: A practical application would be instead of yelling at the kids again because they didn’t clean their room, to focus and intent with love for them to feel motivated to clean their room or something. Try that every day. Instead of just coming at them, just come at them from love and just focus an intent that you’re going to affect their consciousness. Do this experiment every day and see what happens. See that your intention, your focus, your consciousness could affect their consciousness. Now, in terms of healing our body you said the more specific the better.


[1:01:39] Caroline Cory: You don’t want to put in their consciousness, “I want you to clean your room and go do your homework.” You want, first of all, when you are working at that level because this is part of the method that we work with. You are, again, it’s a method that I call the merging, so you’re merging with their higher consciousness. Before you pour the love into it, you can already feel why they are not wanting to clean their room. You know what I mean? Do they not want to clean the room just to show you? Is it like a defiance thing or do they not want to clean their room because actually, they’re not feeling well physically? Do they not want to clean their room because they just had a fight at school and they were bullied? You know what I mean?

There are different reasons why. Every kid is different. Every kid has a different situation. Again, before you put in the positive you want to take out whatever is the root cause of the problem. If you do this enough, you tap into this root cause and then let’s say if it’s something physical, before telling them to go clean their room, maybe you can be guided to give them the chemical whatever food or drink or whatever they need. If it’s a tea, if it’s a hot milk, or whatever. Something that will soothe or bring that chemical balance back into their body so they feel good. Then you say, “Okay.” Then they will naturally feel okay and then they will clean their room. You know what I mean?

If it’s something that—let’s say you feel that something happened in school. They were bullied, they feel ashamed or something like that. Then you want to sit down and say, “Tell me what happened in school?” You know what I mean? Then it’s almost like first, you have to feel the block. Once that is resolved, it’s very easy to pour the love. Then you just watch them change. It’s very magical, but it works. 

The problem with kids is we don’t really hear them. Even though sometimes we hear this, some parents are really good. Some parents are, “Okay, tell me what’s wrong. What’s bothering you or whatever.” But what happens is that even though the kid says, “Well, this kid in school said this or did that,” or whatever. Usually what I noticed with what parents would say, “But it’s okay. Just don’t think about it. Just next time don’t talk to him. Go play with your other friends,” or whatever. It’s almost like the parent is bringing the solution to make the kid feel better or they’re completely ignoring it. That’s another case, of course. Even when they are trying to help, you’re bringing a solution to the problem, but that is not really helping the kid resolve the emotional block that just happened from that experience if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean?

It’s more like, why is this kid attracting the bullying in the first place? Why is my kid allowing these circumstances the other kids don’t get that, for example? I want to go behind the scenes again and feel the root cause that created this problem in the first place and help that, resolve the situation, and help him resolve it at that level. It’s a completely different approach because the kid then feels heard. Because if you propose a very loving solution, they’ll feel the support, they’ll feel like, “Hey, my mother has my back.” Yeah, that’s great, but it still does not resolve the conflict. Does that make sense?

Photo by Kat J on Unsplash


[1:05:54] Ashley James: Absolutely. I like that you’re starting by getting in their shoes, connecting with them, and then going deeper. Sometimes, we kind of just override their feelings. Not just kids but anyone we’re interacting or wanting to influence. That they should be doing it this way, they should be cleaning the dishes this way, or they should be doing it this way. They should do it my way. Why aren’t they looking for a job? Why aren’t they doing this, why aren’t they doing that? They should be doing it this way. They should be doing it my way. We’re cutting ourselves off from this flow of energy by imposing our own will on people.


[1:06:37] Caroline Cory: Yeah, exactly. Or why doesn’t he call me when he’s gone for so long? All the behavior of others.


[1:06:45] Ashley James: Instead, if we close our eyes, take a deep breath, connect with their energy, and just get in their shoes. What are they feeling? What are they going through? Have that level of empathy to connect with them. See if you could understand their world and what they’re going through on an unconscious level and a level of just connecting to their consciousness. From there, help them to get to the root cause. Help them to see it in a way that’ll help them get out of that rut or to shift their life. So that we’re not just imposing our will on them, but that we’re actually helping them to make those. I think it’s really beautiful. How can we do that for ourselves when we get stuck?


[1:07:36] Caroline Cory: I see that also a lot in relationships. For example, usually with women, they get very frustrated because he’s somewhere and he’s not calling or he goes to the store and he buys everything except the one thing that you really want. You know what I mean? Those little annoying things. You want him to pay attention to what you just said. I see this very, very often. It’s very frustrating because to you it’s very logical like, “What’s the big deal, just call me when you get there,” or something like that. “Hey, it’s on your list. What’s the big deal?” 

I noticed that when you tap into their higher consciousness exactly at that moment you notice in general, it’s really not that he’s trying to blow you off or you’re not important, sometimes it is, but most of the time it’s not even that. Sometimes they’re just very ADD. They cannot focus. Sometimes it’s just that. Sometimes they feel that what you asked for is not so important, that you’re going to be okay. They’re assuming that certain things are not important even though you tell them it’s important.

These little things end up piling up and at the end, you end up with fights and confusion and frustration in relationships. The way you can use this is, again, when this is happening, or even before, you can focus and merge with the higher consciousness, not the human aspect of the person. The higher consciousness of your partner or whatever, in that location and just ask the question, “Can you please remember to buy me what’s on the list?” You will feel his authentic reaction like, “Oh, wait. I forgot,” or “Oh, it’s not important.” You can change it. You can change it at that level. It takes a little practice, but it works like miracles.

If you do this with your partner, with your kids now you are becoming, I feel like I want to say evolved, you’re working on multi-dimensional levels of reality. Your human mind is being conscious, is doing all the conscious stuff: cooking, cleaning, driving, going to work, whatever. Your higher consciousness is tapped into all of this potential and it’s guiding you, it’s bringing. You’re not just on one level, you’re on both levels let’s say or multi-level. You are operating in this reality, in this very expanded evolved way.


[1:11:02] Ashley James: How can we take that same principle and apply it to our own healing?


[1:11:07] Caroline Cory: Again, it’s the same thing, it’s the same principle. To me, the biggest problem is the root cause. Why? For example, it’s not myself but let’s say it’s just an example. You start to have certain symptoms or certain imbalances in your body. In the same way, of course, we know at this point it’s not just the symptoms. You want to go back to the root cause of the root cause. We know maybe because your mother had this or it’s genetic or because you ate too much whatever the wrong foods or you smoked or this or that. This is one level of root cause. To me, the bigger root cause or the deeper root cause is why am I creating this in the first place exactly at this time? When you tap into that, all kinds of stories start to happen.

You can train yourself to go deeper and deeper and deeper. Actually, that’s what I teach other healers to do. Once you released one of these root cause, to try to even go deeper and deeper to that place where you first decided that it was okay to create this condition. That is the point where it needs to be reversed. It’s just training. It’s just practice. It’s just training. You just have to keep going deeper and deeper. It’s a whole training of course that we teach.


[1:12:51] Ashley James: That was my next question. I want to know about your training because you know what, my four-year-old wants to learn all this.


[1:13:00] Caroline Cory: Which part?


[1:13:02] Ashley James: Be able to be blindfolded and see the world. It’s just amazing that these kids are reading books blindfolded. You could hold up any color they can tell you what color it is. They can even navigate the world blindfolded. I like that you even did in one clip, you had a little sensor inside the blindfold to prove that there was no light coming in. It’s not a trick.


[1:13:35] Caroline Cory: Oh, it’s not a trick. Also, when you start watching that part of the film, in the beginning, you’re like, “Yeah. Okay. Whatever,” but then you see more and more and more people doing it and just doing all kinds of amazing stuff, not just reading. By the way, these kids, because somebody said, “Well, what if they just memorized the book?” Okay. Well, when I was there, for example, I would write something on a piece of paper that they had never seen before. They have no idea what I’m going to write and then they’d be able to read it. How does that work?

This is very much real and kids are easier to teach. Because they don’t think so much. Imagine that there’s light inside. I want you to put light inside your mask, inside your body. I want you to go out in the universe and bring as much light as you can and put it inside the mask and imagine that you were—I want you to pierce through the mask and read. They’d be like, “Yeah.” If I told an adult that they’d be like, “What? Wait, what? Universe? What does that mean? How can I bring the light? How does this work?” It’s definitely better for kids to do that.

We started putting some classes together. People can go to the Superhuman Film website for those types of classes. Because we’re getting more and more requests for kids so we’re going to do one specifically for kids. Also, we’re going to start doing them online. It’s not the same thing online because just for technical reasons as well because you want the kid to touch things and feel. It seems to be working. I’m doing that with a couple of kids. We’re going to be posting more and more specifically for kids. That is the best age. I think between four and eight is perfect. Of course, everybody can do this. Stay tuned for those details. The other ones that are currently available are on the website superhumanfilm.com.


[1:16:00] Ashley James: Got it. The classes haven’t started yet or have you already started teaching them?


[1:16:05] Caroline Cory: The ones that are based on it, because we’re releasing the film literally now. The film is being released now. It’s kind of like you watch the film you say, “Hey, I want to learn this.” You go on the website and then you take all the classes. We have about five or six workshops already planned this year. We’re going to keep adding more and more. 

These classes are specific for mind over matter meaning the blindfold perception, telekinesis, changing the water pH. These are the specific mind over matter workshops, but the other classes that I was talking about how to merge and feel the consciousness of the person, these are on my energy medicine consciousness website. I think I have like 600 classes and sessions on how to use these techniques for healers. People who are interested, there’s a whole healers program with all of these methods all on the website already. That is carolinecory.com.


[1:17:20] Ashley James: Awesome. Very cool. I think that these are fantastic things, fantastic tools for us to learn. It would be really great if this was taught in school. To come back to like how real this is that the US government, for many years, invested a lot of money in psychic soldiers and in remote viewing. So did Russia, so did China. They haven’t stopped because it works. I’ve met a few psychic soldiers. 

I went to the Awake and Aware Conference back in 2008 and talked to a few, met a few. The ones that are speaking up and sharing their experiences, it’s very interesting that you can remote view a location and know where a bomb is or read a manual or read classified files. The military would not be investing time and energy into it if it didn’t exist. The fact that if they can train a soldier to do it then you can get trained to do it too. It’s part of us. It’s part of who we are. For whatever reason, we’ve been suppressed. We’ve been told not to cultivate these gifts. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that throughout the history of the last thousand years, they’ve wanted us to suppress and not be connected to our gifts?


[1:19:13] Caroline Cory: Well, there are a couple of answers to this question. On one level, it has a lot to do with our programming that you have to believe what a scientist tells you because they’re educated and they are. That’s not to say they’re not, but here’s the problem. What people don’t realize is this is what I call subjective science, which is a contradiction in terms actually because science is supposed to be objective. This is still science. The problem is it is subjective in the sense that, for example, today I’m going to be able to move this piece of paper, make it rotate 360 degrees very easily. Tomorrow, if I sit exactly in the same condition, at the same time, at the same hour everything exactly the same, there’s nothing interfering with it, I’m going to be able to maybe move it 10 degrees. Then the next day, I’m going to be able to move it 20 degrees and then 40 degrees, and then on the fourth day, I’m going to make it move 360 degrees.

A scientist from the outside would say, “Wait, this doesn’t work.” Because the way we define science is you’re supposed to have repeatable results. You’re supposed to every single day you move an object it’s supposed to behave in the same way because they’re a physical law you. Newton’s physical laws that apply to the physical world. If you did it once in one way and then the next thing you did something different, that doesn’t count, therefore telekinesis doesn’t exist. It’s crazy. Wait a minute, wait a minute. I moved the object 360 degrees. Of course, we’re talking baseline, everything else in a vacuum, the conditions are scientific. The fact that every day the result was slightly different or very different, this should not make any difference because, under the actual physical laws, I shouldn’t be able to move anything. This should be impossible.

Some scientists will look at the result and say, “Wait, this just moved ten degrees. That’s nothing.” You know what I mean? That’s the problem. They dismiss it right off the bat because it doesn’t comply with the way scientific experiments are conducted. The reason being, that’s why I call it subjective science because this manifestation, what’s happening is that it has to do with my subjective consciousness, which is affected by so many things. One day, I have less energy, another day, my mother just called and I spend an hour on the phone and I’m exhausted, or my kid is sick. You know what I mean? I am a living consciousness that it’s continuously changing. I am in constant movement and form of energy that is constantly moving. It’s that energy that is trying to affect a physical object. That is the reason why the results are now going to be exactly the same. Again, but the fact that I have done it even once, it means I broke the physical laws of the universe. You see what I mean?

I think that’s one of the problems. They dismiss it because it needs to fit. They are trying to explain non-physical phenomena with physical laws in other words. That doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. It just doesn’t work. It’s like you have the wrong ingredients, you have the wrong parameters for measuring this thing. That’s the main problem. I have another. I don’t even know if you want to go there. I’m talking about hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years ago. I feel that there has been a lot of manipulation with the human species. Even on a genetic level, I feel that there’s been a lot of interference and a lot of genetic manipulation that kind of made the human gradually, generation after generation, thousands of years later, become very limited. I mean more limited than it should be. Something on a genetic level, it was programmed so that you keep going in circles so that you don’t expand out. You stay inside your little bubble. That programming is very, very, very ancient.

I don’t know if you want to go talk about those kinds of things because we’re talking about other types of species and doing stuff like that. I don’t know if this is part of this.


[1:24:39] Ashley James: I know I’m into it. I’m interested in everything. Leave no stone unturned. If you think about it, I think we’ve been programmed to have fear. If someone had awakened their gifts 500 years ago they’d be burned at the stake or the Spanish Inquisition. If you look at the last 1000 years or 2000 years even, there’s a concerted effort by the ruling people using religion and government to control us. To not want us to be awake and be empowered. There’s a fear. Don’t be a tall poppy. Don’t stand out. There’s a fear of standing out because we’ll be culled from the herd. We’ll be somehow put back in our place. We have to acknowledge that there’s a fear inside of us that if we were to tap into our own gifts that we’re afraid we’ll be rejected by those we love and care about. That it’s part of our survival to fit in. We have to get that it’s safe, it’s safe to tap into our gifts, and that we all have them. That there’s no Spanish Inquisition coming after us if we become fully empowered in our gifts.

I really would love every single listener to be able to tap into their and use their consciousness to support their body’s ability to heal itself, to unblock what is blocked, to adjust the pH, increase the connectivity of their DNA, to increase the absorption rate of nutrients, increase the uptake of nutrients into the cells, to open up their capillaries, and increase the oxygenation to the cell. Just all these little things that we could focus on, what if that if every day we chose one thing? We chose to spend five minutes just meditating on and focusing on the intention of increasing oxygenation to the cell or increasing the permeability for nutrients to come in and for waste to come out or supporting more blood flow to the liver to get toxins out or whatever. Pick one thing and just focus on it for a week and see what happens.


[1:27:18] Caroline Cory: Right. I love that.


[1:27:20] Ashley James: We can focus on supporting our body and healing tissue and increasing, like you said, increasing thyroid, but you got to get to the root. Because what if the thyroid is not the problem?


[1:27:30] Caroline Cory: I was just going to say. I was just going to say. I can’t stress that enough. Part of this work though is to first tune into why that is happening in the first place. Because if you’re focusing on increasing, let’s say increasing your metabolism or something. It’s almost like you are adding more information to the cells. You’re telling your cells, “Okay, now I want you to behave this way. My intent is that I want you to increase your electrical conductivity or I want you to increase your vibrational whatever.” You’re kind of adding more information when you have not taken out the information that made it behave this way in the first place. 

That’s why when we talk about affirmation it’s kind of the same thing. You can’t be saying, “Oh, I’m healthy. I’m beautiful. I’m successful.” I’m not saying it doesn’t help. It helps, but it’s not efficient enough if you are saying that. You’re still saying, “I’m successful. I’m healthy.” and your unconscious mind and your cells still have the old information of, “I’m not good enough. I’m a failure. I’m abandoned by my father.” and so on and so forth. That is part of the revolving door. You have to do both at the same time.


[1:28:58] Ashley James: That’s been my problem with affirmations because you can say, “Oh, I’m successful. I’m rich. I’m beautiful.” over and over again and yet, let’s say, you’ve got no money in the bank account. You really have an unconscious belief that you’re not beautiful and you’re unemployed or you’re not successful. You’re consciously repeating something but your unconscious mind is going, “That’s not true. That’s not true. That’s not true.” It’s not actually changing anything. When done wrong, affirmations are kind of a waste of time and also will actually harm. It’s almost like they’ll harm us though because they have our unconscious mind reinforce our belief system. “No, I am broke. What are you talking about?” Just reinforces that, whereas when we get to the root cause we go, “Okay. What do I need to shift? What do I need to change? What is my belief system?” Then focusing the consciousness on like you said, it can’t be so general, it needs to be specific.

Let’s say, okay specifically, “I just did a job interview and I’m going to put my consciousness towards that person hiring me or that person thinking I’m going to be really good for the job.” So we get really specific and we focus our intent, our intention on shifting our reality to go a certain way. I’d love to do experiments with lab tests like lowering cholesterol. Get a bunch of people together. Maybe if you’re interested in doing any experiments or doing a sequel to your movie. Get a bunch of people together and get a bunch of diabetics together and teach this to them. Type 2 diabetics and teach this to them. “Okay, using your consciousness we’re going to monitor your blood sugar, your blood glucose. Let’s see if you could actually manipulate your blood glucose with your consciousness.”

I just remembered. There is a—I don’t remember what book it’s in but there was a reference to a publication where this woman had multiple personalities. I forget what they call it now. There’s a new term for it. She would go in and out of different personalities, completely split personalities that didn’t know the other personalities. One of her personalities was diabetic and the other ones weren’t. When she went into the personality with diabetes, her blood sugar would change. They would monitor her. The other personalities didn’t have it. She would not have blood sugar problems when she was in those other personalities. The doctors were baffled to be able to see that personality, that the mind could actually affect that.

I’m not saying people should just stop taking their insulin or eat doughnuts and then just imagine that they’re not having high blood sugar. It’s not what I’m saying. I think diet and lifestyle, physical things are very important. What if part of keeping us sick is continually holding on to the belief that we’re sick?


[1:32:18] Caroline Cory: Absolutely. Absolutely. Exactly. That’s exactly it. In fact, we are opening a lab and we’re definitely going to be doing more along those lines. Again, like you just explained with that example, there was a root cause for this person. The root cause was that she had multiple personalities. It’s not just genetic, it’s not just a diet. But then, you go deeper into this and go, “Wait. Why did I attract or create this multiple personality condition in the first place?” So you keep going, again like I said, the root cause of the root cause. Then when you get there, this is when the diabetic condition is going to shift. Until then, it’s still there because it’s being built on all of these patterns that have been there for years and years and years. That’s the methodology that I teach.


[1:33:25] Ashley James: I love it. I love it. Caroline, this has been wonderful. I love exploring this topic. Is there anything you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview?


[1:33:38] Caroline Cory: I think if people watch the film they would feel that it’s okay and it’s time to be empowered. To just go out and do it and be themselves. I feel that is the purpose of this film. It’s not just a select group of gifted people. Everyone can do this and they will see it in the film. There’s a lot of scientific validation and we need to just move on from expecting everyone to agree or do this or do that. It is what it is. That’s what I’m hoping that people will get out of this. In terms of the healing methodologies and stuff, I have actually a lot of free stuff on my website, on my Youtube channel. For those who are more interested in really learning the methodology, they can look at the courses that are on the website carolinecory.com as well.


[1:34:50] Ashley James: Excellent. Very cool. So your website’s carolinecory.com and also, to see the movie superhumanfilm.com. Superhuman: The Invisible Made Visible, which is coming out really soon. What’s the date for the launch?


[1:35:07] Caroline Cory: Actually, now. We’re just finalizing the details of the actual official release. It should be any time now in March. The best thing is people go to the website Superhuman Film and they can just sign up, just put their email. They’ll go get an update. As soon as it’s out, they’ll get an update.


[1:35:30] Ashley James: Excellent. For those who are really interested in the paranormal, they could check out your other videos. You did something with William Shatner. Is that correct?


[1:35:44] Caroline Cory: Yeah. I am a guest on a couple of shows on History Channel. There’s one show is Ancient Aliens. I’m kind of becoming almost a regular in this season, anyway. I’ve done maybe four-five seasons of that show. The Unexplained is a new show with William Shatner. I think it’s season one still. We just filmed one of the episodes, actually, just last week.


[1:36:19] Ashley James: Well, I can’t wait to see it. Have you met William in person?


[1:36:23] Caroline Cory: Yeah. Actually, I met him in another event. These shows, he does the hosting. We’re not necessarily filming on the day, on same space, because we were at a conference. The A&E Network, they had an event for all their shows. We were both in that, invited. I just met him there.


[1:36:51] Ashley James: I’m a big Trekkie so I just have to know, what’s he like in person?


[1:36:55] Caroline Cory: He’s adorable. So nice, so nice, so so sweet, and so nice. Yeah. He’s adorable.


[1:37:04] Ashley James: That’s awesome.


[1:37:05] Caroline Cory: I think he’s 68 or 70, I’m not sure, but I mean he’s very sharp and just very, very sweet.


[1:37:11] Ashley James: Very cool. You should get him to watch your movie.


[1:37:16] Caroline Cory: I mean there’s enough on his plate but yeah.


[1:37:20] Ashley James: Well, we should all watch your movie. I’m excited for its release. Thank you so much, Caroline, for coming on the show today. It’s been a real pleasure. I’d love to have you back especially when you do more studies and when, in your lab as you say, when you have collected more studies, I’d love for you to come back and share the results. Then for those who are interested in taking your courses on developing their own telekinesis, their own ability to sense the world, perceive the world, like read blindfolded, and also to be able to affect the world with their consciousness, would going to superhumanfilm.com be better or go to carolinecory.com be better?


[1:38:04] Caroline Cory: Just go to superhumanfilm.com and look at the workshops. You just click on workshops, you’ll see what we have now. We’ll keep updating, we’ll keep adding classes and online classes. Like I said, the best thing also for people, just use the sign-up link. Every time we add a class or we’re doing like a private screening somewhere or a public screening, whatever, then they’ll get an update. We don’t really bombard people with information. It’s only when we have an update.


[1:38:38] Ashley James: Excellent. Thank you so much, Caroline. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show.


[1:38:41] Caroline Cory: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It was awesome.


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