Flicka Rahn And Ashley James


  • How we can heal ourselves through music
  • There is a way through love to heal ourselves that has been traumatized through toxic thoughts, experiences.
  • Music expressed through love is the variable that helps things become more ordered.
  • If we want to be in a state of loving empathy and be able to connect with others, we need to make sure the music we choose matches that.
  • We want to choose music that is meant to heal us and make sure that we avoid music that isn’t going to bring us healing.
  • We want to be conscious of that because music can be a weapon or can be a tool for healing.

In this episode, discover how the power of music can affect us emotionally and spiritually. Even knowing that music can have the power to heal us by just having the knowledge on how to correctly choose the music or sounds we would listen to. Flicka Rahn shares her expertise on all things music and sound in today’s podcast.


Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another exciting episode of the learn true health podcast. Today’s episode is uplifting and beautiful and it touches on this blend of energy and spiritual, emotional and physical healing. Bringing it all together something that weaves throughout is music. Music can affect us spiritually. Can affect our energy, our mood our psyche and it can even affect us on a physical level. I know you’re going to really enjoy today’s episode with Flicka Rahn, who is an expert in using music to heal us emotionally, physically and energetically.

I am so excited for the Learn True Health home kitchen. I’ve been working on it. Filming with Naomi since October. We launched just two weeks ago and already all the members who’ve joined are really enjoying it. If you haven’t joined yet, I highly recommend checking it out. Go to learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. That’s learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. Every week I upload new recipes, new videos, new lessons. There’s over five hours worth of content already in the membership and every week we’re adding more and more. If you want to learn how to use food in a way that heals your body, you’re going to love our membership. It’s affordable. Everyone can afford it and I want you to use the coupon code LTH to get the member discount so it’s affordable and we teach you how to cook delicious food, save you time in the kitchen heal your body with food and food that your family will enjoy. There’s wonderful tips in there for shifting your life and shifting your habits in a way that improve your health. So no matter where you are on the health spectrum and no matter what diet you follow, you will get fantastic tips and fantastic recipes that you can implement to get more healing foods into your life. Please come check it out. I would love for you to see it. We’re having so much fun sharing all these wonderful recipes and videos with you. learntruehealth.com/homekitchen. That’s learntruehealth.com/homekitchen and use the coupon code LTH. Come join us, we’re having a ton of fun. All the members who’ve joined so far are really loving it and I know that you will too. Excellent. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing this podcast with those you care about so we can help as many people as possible to learn true health.

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[02:57] Ashley James: Welcome to the Learn True Health Podcast. I’m your host Ashley James. This is episode 409. I am so excited for today’s guest. We have on the show Flicka Rahn. Who’s a specialist in healing with music. This is a topic that’s really near and dear to my heart. My dad, he loved music. He was so passionate about it. He was in the music industry. In a unique way he designed a type of speaker that these speakers that are in like home entertainment systems. He designed a type of speaker that you only needed two of them but that they you could hear from different directions and this is back in the 80’s and 90’s. So now I know like everyone just has a tiny little Amazon device in their corner that plays music but back then he designed these speakers that he called it spatial sound that you could be anywhere in the room and you could hear a sound from somewhere else in the room because it would throw the sound around. He always played music and he always shared his passion about music with me and growing up I complained that I was only teenager that would yell at her dad to turn down the music. He would wake me up playing Fool in the Rain Led Zepplin on a Saturday morning. So I just smile every time I hear Led Zeppelin because he would, I mean he just loved he loved all music but he would play he would play everything for me and so growing up him and I would share, we would share our CD collections. We’d go to the CD store together and we just we just shared it so much that, so much of music for me it brings back these really positive memories of love and a connection that I had with my dad. For me, I found that music is healing when you can link it to something like love and you can resonate a sense of like love and connection. That helped me to heal after losing him. I’ve always had a deep connection with music and I know that it’s part of us. I think I feel like it’s part of our DNA. When you reached out Flicka, to be on the show to share your expertise around using music as a form of healing, I thought this would be a wonderful experience for all the listeners. Because all the listeners are here to learn how to achieve true health and there’s a little-known thing that is very affordable that we can all do and that’s using music as a therapy. As a way to heal. Welcome to the show.


[05:37] Flicka Rahn: Well, I’m so happy to be here Ashley and thank you for this really wonderful opportunity to share what I know and what I know works. My entire life has been revolved around music and the sharing of music and teaching of music and playing music and composing music. I taught for 25 years at Texas A&M University as a voice teacher. I also had a pretty extensive career as an opera singer. I have music published by for soprano and piano. I really have studied this. I mean it’s a never-ending study of music and the depths of how it can reach deeply into us emotionally, physically and spiritually. Yes, indeed, what you did share with your father through music was a sense of love and there is no greater force for healing than love. That is really what after I retired from the University, I became impassioned with knowing about what has been used by indigenous healers. Throughout history as healing music and specifically sound. I did a great deal of research and study about those different examples. And because I have so much experience singing and in all forms of worship, temples and churches and fellowships, I just found a lot of commonalities. That I then went on to explore at a deeper level and went and experienced even into South America. Into the Amazon to really understand the healing nature of the music that they used. The shamans in South America in the Amazon. All of this has come around to broaden my – I really laugh people say, “You’re not retired.” “No, I’m I really, I’ve just found another job.” That is creating and composing this music that specifically uses the elements of sacred music that I’ve discovered and using those elements to then create my own specific type of sound. Which I think you will be playing for the listeners at some point.


[08:38] Ashley James: Yes, I’ll definitely play your music that you’ve given us at some point in today’s interview. Did something happen in your life where you were sick or didn’t feel well and you used music, the vibration? Maybe you could explain a bit about this also that music is energy and our bodies are energy. Where we’re made up of energy and so using music as a vibration that moves through your whole body can help to correct the energy in our body. I know this is really out there but if you think about it, we’re actually we’re not solid. Nothing is solid. Everything is atoms vibrating and we’re all a vibration and energy and so is music. There’s been people who’ve shared that certain frequencies, certain Hertz have healing properties. Was there ever a point in your life where you fell ill and used music or had an experience of healing through music?


[09:37] Flicka Rahn: Absolutely. But I do want to return to specific frequencies and how some are more powerfully accepted by your body than others. Let’s talk about the time, actually I was in I was in Peru and I used to suffer really pretty profoundly with migraine headaches and because I was about to experience sacred ceremony with the Shipibo Indians, I could not take any medicines for a month. I was just about at my wit’s end because I used it to help with my migraine headaches. Honestly one night, I went down there with my brother and he was in another place in the hotel and I said, “Flicka, you know, you’ve physician heal yourself, okay.” This is I mean this is where the rubber hits the road so I said, “Alright, so what I’m going to do, I will tone every note to correspond with the resonance frequencies of each of the chakras.” I did. I started at the root chakra with the pitch. Which is designated as the note C and for about 10 minutes. Then I moved up to the next chakra and I just really moved all the way up the body to the crown. By the time I had finished toning and it was about an hour that I had vocalized all of those pictures, the headache was totally gone and it never came back. That’s a powerful way because I was self-creating frequency and vibration. We know that quantum physics now teaches us this new view of reality which is which has moved beyond Newtonian physics in that, everything vibrates everything has frequency and yes, there is nothing really solid in that in the quantum world. Where I then begin to work and my knowledge and my studies is, “How do I affect this quantum world that is really at the base of what our bodies are to help people with illnesses that are –“ well, there’s lots of causes for that for the illness to appear into your physical body but they all really start at the etheric body. Which is the energetic body that is right beyond your physical bodies a lot about two inches away from your physical body. That is where I, as a sound therapist work is in the etheric body and trying to bring all of that energy into harmony and in balancing the chakras which respond to sound and vibration and to the healing touch which is really the vibration of love. Reiki has a part in that as well but by balancing and re-aligning and harmonizing the entire body, the electromagnetic field around your body then healing can take place. I have I have witnessed so much of this with my clients. Sometimes after I work with a client it in and really worked very closely with the energetic bodies, it takes a couple of weeks because for the etheric body to then harmonize the physical body. It’s not very often although in my case it was because I think I was highly stressed and stress as we know is not something that can help healing. Does that answer your question, Ashley? I’m sorry, I went on and on.


[14:04] Ashley James: It’s okay. You’ve given me ten more questions. Just that one example where you used the frequency for each chakra and within an hour your headache or migraine was gone. It’s interesting though you were reaching for the Advil or you’re reaching for the ibuprofen, whatever drug you’re reaching for every month when you had these headaches but then when you were up against a challenge, the challenge to go drug-free for a month. Then you were left with needing to like dig into your own tool belt. I think that that’s actually a really great challenge for all of us. All of us, we all have resources and sometimes we forget. Sometimes we’ll reach for the coffee, over-the-counter medication, right? The sugar, the coffee, the stimulants, the uppers and downers. Whatever over-the-counter stuff to get us through the day to mask a symptom. I love that you challenged yourself. You took on the challenge to not medicate for a month because you’re walking into a situation where the healer asked you for one month to be medication free.

That is a great challenge because sometimes we know we have these resources but sometimes we reach for what’s easy just to get us through the day and if we challenged ourselves to not self-medicate, to not go for the alcohol at the end of the day or the sugar when we have the sugar craving or the coffee when we’re tired but instead dig deeper into our own tool belt of resources. Realize that we probably have or the body is talking to us. The body probably is saying, “I’m dehydrated. I need to rest. I need some more joy in my life. I need to eat fruit.” Or whatever the body is saying. The body is – and your case, your body was saying, “I need to be in alignment. My energy needs to be in alignment.” So you dug deep into your into your tool belt and you used the very tools that you have at your disposal and your headache went away. We’ve been trained that it’s really easy to reach for the over-the-counter medication or reach for those things that mask our symptoms but when we mask our symptoms, we’re actually not achieving health. Where we’re stunting our own growth and our own personal growth and development so I love that you use that as an example. When you did that though for that hour, I think you said you were at a hotel, were you singing to yourself for an hour?


[16:41] Flicka Rahn: Absolutely. I was and it doesn’t need it didn’t need to be loud because even subtle, it was toning. It’s what was it was, Ashley. Toning is not really, it’s chanting without the words. It’s just singing a pitcher tone without words. It’s more like singing an alm but I would do it on the resonant pitch of each of the chakras. Starting off with the note C.


[17:14] Ashley James: Can you teach us?


[17:16] Flicka Rahn: Absolutely. I think it’s really – thank you for letting me have the opportunity to do this. It’s important that that your body be, check it for stress so that if you are sitting up and in this case, I was sitting up on the bed because the breath then can be deeper into your belly. Like a soft belly breath. I would breathe easily into my belly and then just, okay, here I go. [Singing Sound] I just did that using all of the resonant pitches of each of the chakras. As I closed, did you hear as I closed into the m to the mmm sound, you can feel the vibrations in your head. It was almost like an internal massage and very calming, very comforting and very ultimately healing. That’s all toning is. It’s no big mystery. When I’m teaching people about toning for in my case, I picked a specific pitch and then I moved up the scale but I teach people that whatever tone your body wants to make is the absolute perfect tone for whatever you need your body knows. It will produce the pitch that best heals it.

I always yield to the body wisdom in that case and it didn’t have to – so when I’m working with people, it doesn’t have to match my pitch. It is because we each choose the pitch that the body wants to hear or to feel. Of course, it’s frequency and frequency carries information and you can feel your heart vibrate through all of these toning exercise. It’s just wonderful. I mean you can even do this in the car when you’re driving and you’re in really bad traffic. Honestly, Ashley, I have to tell you this but when I go to the dentist and that is not my favorite place but I tell the dentist, I said, “I’m going to be toning the minute you start that drill.” and they expect it and it, number one, it blocks out a lot of those higher partials in that drill sound that makes them crazy but it also calms me down and I’m breathing slower because I’m releasing the sound slower than the breath I take in. All your listeners may try this. The next time you go to the dentist. I mean it works like a charm.


[20:23] Ashley James: Can you explain how you do that when your mouth is open, they’re drilling in your mouth or they’re cleaning your teeth, how do you do this?


[20:31] Flicka Rahn: Okay. So here I am in my studio right now and I’m opening my mouth like I have to and at the dentist, so it’s like this. [Singing Sound] so the back of my tongue is up against the back of my throat so as to not be you know, swallowing all that water they put in your mouth when they’re cleaning up but I don’t go into the sound the M sound at the end. I just I just hold one note for a long time and again, it doesn’t have to be a specific pitch. It’s whatever your body wants to sound at the time. You think about it Ashley, I mean for any really emotional response that we have to an event. Be it fear or terror, I mean there’s always an explosion of sound that we make as our species has done that to try to balance the body. Screaming when someone is afraid is very beneficial to help bring the body back into balance. Of course, when we’re really happy and laughing or singing. It’s all sound related as the body continues to try to keep itself in a balanced energetic state. That just occurred to me, sound is very connected. Our own sounds that we make to our emotional state at a time. By staying quiet if there’s something that you need to cry about is, you know, your body will take that energy and and hide it into the etheric body. It’s better to go ahead and cry or scream or sound or something so that you keep the energy moving out. Rather than pulling it in to be hidden and that you have to deal with later at some point because you will.


[22:52] Ashley James: It’s so true crying is so cathartic and letting it out, you know, we were taught in the society to hold it all in and then it explodes like a volcano, right? It causes so much internal stress but let it out. I like that you said that when you when you do this alming, your out-breath is longer than your in-breath. I recently had an interview with Forrest Knudsen who’s a yogi and he teaches how to create the heart rate variability which is now the number one way of measuring stress. It’s the most accurate way of measuring stress. They’re now seeing that it’s the most accurate way of measuring your longevity. That if you have poor hurry variability you are likely to die sooner than those who have very good heart rate variability. He said the key to achieving heart rate variability meaning very good healthy heart variability where the heart and the body is in a low state of stress is to make the out-breath be a little bit longer than the in-breath. So by you doing this, you’re actually practicing not only are you using frequency and energy healing but you are also creating heart rate variability and decreasing stress in the body.


[24:15] Flicka Rahn: Absolutely. I know exactly about what you were speaking. I’ve used the breath work as well but to add a toning sound to that is even better because then you’re giving your body some vibrations and frequencies that really help with the alignment and the heart rate variability. Yes, stress is a killer. Stress is a killer and we have a stress epidemic now. My music really addresses stress in a big way. I think that most healing music from Egypt, from Tibet to India, to all of the indigenous peoples use ways to decrease stress.


[25:17] Ashley James: Now what about those who are – I have some listeners who are Christian and might not feel comfortable saying ohm because they’re associating it with Buddhism or a different religion. Could they say anything? Could they say Amen? Yes, that’s what I was going to say. Could they chant Amen to themselves? I know that in the like Catholic Church and the very ancient you know, Catholicism, chanting was a really big thing. That they would chant over and over again. I was imagining you could just take a nice deep breath and say Amen over and over again. Sing it to yourself and whatever pitch your body wanted.


[25:58] Flicka Rahn: Let’s just try it.


[26:00] Ashley James: Okay. Let’s try it. Listen listener, you try it too. Let’s all do it. Let’s do it together. Okay.


[26:05] Flicka Rahn: Remember it doesn’t matter what note you pick. Take the deep breath in. [Singing Sound] Take another breath. [Singing Sound]


[26:37] Ashley James: That’s really fun. It feels so calming. It really feels like a blanket of comfort came over me.


[26:48] Flicka Rahn: Yes Ashley, Yes. You see even with just two Amens, all that anchors you again into a feeling of full, you know, completeness and peace. I think this is – it’s a it’s a beautiful practice.


[27:08] Ashley James: If one was spiritual could imagine connecting with source, with God, with Jesus. With whomever they want to connect with. Could imagine bathing in the energy of divine love. They could you know take that take this to the next level, right? Because you’re incorporating so many senses, you’re feeling your voice, you’re breathing in and then breathing out. You’re feeling a vibration around your whole body.  It’s sound bathing but you’re feeling this vibration inside you. You’re hearing it and then you’re feeling this energy so there’s several things going on at once.


[27:47] Flicka Rahn: Absolutely. Yes. You know, and if you didn’t want to close your eyes, you could look at a picture of whoever you know, a picture of Jesus or a picture of Buddha or a mandala with different colors. I mean there are a lot of ways to stimulate the senses through even sight. As also the kinesthetic and the end the oral with your ears. Yes, they’re very powerful. Very powerful.


[28:19] Ashley James: Now each chakra has a different frequency, so how do you then go up? Like if you said you could start at whatever frequency your body wanted then how do you address each chakra?


[28:31] Flicka Rahn: Okay, so in that case, I would pick the specific pitch. I would start at C and I’m getting a C for you right now. We’re going to start with a C. That’s a C. [Singing Sound] I would do that for as long as I felt like I needed it and then the next pitch is a D. [Singing Sound] E, [Singing Sound]. If you want to go down an octave, I don’t think I have a low E but if that’s not comfortable for you then you can go down an octave. There are lots of tools on apps that you can get as a tuner and they will tell you what note is C and D and E.


[29:37] Ashley James: Okay. Now I know you have a CD that people can download. I think it’s called chakra soundscapes. Is that it?


[29:43] Flicka Rahn: That is exactly it and it actually that is what I used when I was in Peru. I put my earphones on and I toned through each of those tracks. They’re eight minutes a piece so I was toning for a long time. The tracks and the sound would lead you gently into that pitch. People would enjoy that. They certainly could go to iTunes and get chakra soundscapes by Icaros. That is the name of our group and tone along. Just know that I’ve been toning along with you and actually my voice is also on each of the tracks. Yes, that would be an easy way to start to so you don’t have to find an app and know where the note C is. You could just tone along with the CD.


[30:36] Ashley James: Very cool. Tell me about Icaros. That’s your band?


[30:39] Flicka Rahn: Well, it is. It is actually two of us. It is my co-composer and when I did all this research about trying to find the common elements of sacred music throughout the world, throughout history and also through all of the sacred expressions of sound and music. I identified those elements and then I asked Daniel, who is an incredible pianist and to help me create what I knew in my mind I wanted to create. The incredible thing about the CD which if people hear it is all of the music is improvised. Which means we wrote nothing down. We went into the studio and I said, “Alright. We’re going to use C as our resonant pitch and we’re also going to play around with the major triad. For those of your folks who don’t know what that is it’s like, [Singing Sound]. I mean everybody knows that combination of pitches. Then we also used a lot of other intervals that have a very strong effect on our Western ears to help us release energy. Let me come back to that. Daniel and I did this and I use my crystal singing bowls which I have here in the studio and I used a whole set of those and we went through each of the resonant pitches of each of the chakras and his harmonies are absolutely just exquisite. I then improvised around his harmonic progressions. We both know how to improvise so this really came from just this outpouring of love that I was feeling and we both get in kind of the same spiritual space. Then we create from that space. Every time we perform, it is all improvised. We feel the audience and then really it’s a co-creative experience. The audience and us.

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[33:18] Ashley James: It’s like spiritual jazz.


[33:22] Flicka Rahn: That’s exactly what it is, Ashley.


[33:24] Ashley James: I want to see you live. oh my gosh. Do you tour?


[33:26] Flicka Rahn: Yes, we do.


[33:28] Ashley James: Okay. Well, tell me when you’re coming up to Seattle.


[33:31] Flicka Rahn: I will. I will. We’re about to go to Palm Spring in about three weeks to perform. It’s not even really performing, it’s to offer the experience is more like it. Because it’s meditation to a sales meeting of Tito’s vodka.


[33:58] Ashley James: So like get hammered and spiritual at the same time. It’d be really cool if they don’t have a hangover the next day because you’re like attuning their bodies.


[34:09] Flicka Rahn: I did talked to them. I said, “You know, we have got to do this in the morning.” So I’ve done that and we’ve also gone to some conventions of doctors and holistic healers. We are going to Mexico in March for a big holistic spiritual festival outside of Mexico City. People are hungry for this now because there is so much stress, Ashley and we’ve lost touch with our hearts honey. It’s we’ve lost touch and what Daniel and I offer is a way to touch back in and make a connection within yourself to your own heart and then it’s so easy to love everybody else. It just naturally flows. That’s what we are finding is during our live performances this happens and everybody just gets up and all they want to do is hug each other. It’s just great.


[35:15] Ashley James: Oh, my gosh. If the whole world if the whole world did that. Can you imagine the amount of change that we could make? I love that that’s your mission. Back when I was 19 I stayed at Kripalu. Which is the I think it’s the largest yoga residential Center in the United States. It can house over 200 people and I stayed there for a whole month. I took their 200-hour bodywork training program. I got to experience several different types of music healing. I had a session with didgeridoos where they would play didgeridoos on my body. We lay down like a daisy, like we’re petals of a daisy and he would stand in the middle and he’d play the didgeridoo straight on top of each chakra. There’s nothing like it. I can still feel it when I think about it. It’s pretty amazing.


[36:13] Flicka Rahn: See the didgeridoo is so rich in overtones and what we call partials. What it does is totally aligned, it’s like a buffet for your body as far as a frequency and sound. I am a big believer in that and Gong’s also offered the same thing. Often times when I’m working with a client, I will put the bowl right on their body just to kind of feed that chakra. That’s what happened to you. I mean, I bet it was an amazing experience.


[36:51] Ashley James: It was very cathartic and then we also experienced on a different day we had the singing Bulls. My favorite however, was that the crystal harmonica and they let me play it. I mean I really want to own a crystal harmonica. Many people don’t know what it is but I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that created it. It was at the time more popular than the piano but it would break often in transportation but it’s a bunch of crystal bowls on a stick on their side and it would rotate slowly and you have to have very clean fingers and you get your fingers wet and you play it as the bowls spin. Oh, my gosh.


[37:30] Flicka Rahn: Oh, ethereal.


[37:31] Ashley James: It’s so ethereal right. Yes. Yes, it does. It just did something for me. I’ve had those experiences and of course, we would ohm. The whole group would ohm like several times and you would be bathing in this vibration of the whole room. I can’t even describe what would happen but I felt so full and so complete. Then often every few days they had drumming circles. Where before and after lunch or before and after dinner, there would be 20 or 30 of us drumming and the rest of us would just be dancing just you know moving our bodies to the sounds of the beat. Everyone wanted to just hug and love on each other and smile. No matter how angry, I mean I was 19. I was going through so many emotions. I could imagine very angsty and no matter how frustrated or angry or you know hormonal or whatever I was going through, I’d walk into that drum circle and I’d walk out just like my authentic self. Like all that other stuff would just peel away. I’ve had these experiences with using music as energy healing and they were profound. I’ve never had a mundane music healing session. Let’s put it that way.


[38:52] Flicka Rahn: Well, it’s like effects like. We are frequency and so when we are into a therapeutic situation where there is vibration and frequency, there’s something in us that knows this is this is who we really are. Although there is some sounds that are not healing. That tend to be very disruptive to the energetic body. I think and people can know what those are but just by your response to them. I’ve had some experience with people who are quite disturbed. Do you want me to go into that?


[39:42] Ashley James: Sure.


[39:44] Flicka Rahn: Okay. I have a degree in counseling as well as I’m a master’s in both music and counseling. I have studied a lot of the psychological challenges that  people had. There is one way of releasing a lot of pain and that’s through this action of cutting your own skin and from the person who’s doing the cutting it makes a lot of sense because it’s a focus for the internal pain that they can’t get to so it feels actually good. I’ve also experienced people also listen to extremely loud disruptive hard metal dissonant music as a way of focusing on the inner environment which is you know, really probably frightened and in pain and in trauma. It’s making those tuning, that the cutting and the listening to just really hard metal dissonant really loud angry stuff, it’s a way of putting it outside yourself rather than it being inside. I’ve seen that as somewhat therapeutic but it certainly is not the end goal. To understand why, you know, if it were me, I would want to know, “Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? It feels good but why does it feel good?” Then move on to something that is more healing because if you keep doing that disruptive music it just keeps, the neural pathways keep getting deeper and deeper and it’s very hard to then change. Put in some other to feel the release of dopamine and seratonin through like meditation or meditative music. Did any of that make sense? I’m very empathetic, I guess. To how people try to manage their pain and yes, it can be very scary for them. Yes, so-


[42:05] Ashley James: Someone is cutting or if someone recognizes if they’re at the point where they’re recognizing that they’re using self-harm in an effort to self-soothe. How can they use sound or music to help them to make healthier choices for themselves and help them self-soothe in a way that isn’t harmful?


[42:30] Flicka Rahn: Okay, glad you asked that. I am working with a neurologist now and we are exploring the sound of the crystal singing bowls in working with our veterans that have experienced PTSD and are finding it very difficult to re-enter a society. You know, where there’s not the constant threat of death. We do know that their brains have been changed by the trauma and that there are some pathways in in the brain in which see if they heard a backfire, the brain would interpret that differently then say maybe I that heard the backfire because I don’t have the associative memory. Those neural pathways have not been made in me but it in some of our brave warriors it has been. How can you change the landscape inside your own brain to move away from that reactive, the reaction. We also know that what wires together then then repeats. What you want to do is not try to make that go away but spend time and meditation so that that becomes more normal. The pathways of peace, of love, of calmness and there had been a lot of success by people who have taught meditation and a lot of breath work to veterans even over one week. They’ve seen changes and the brain has changed. There is a fantastic movie on I think it’s Netflix called Free the Brain or Free the Mind. One of the two but free the – and it recounts the study that was done with these brave warriors and also with children with ADHD. Who it seems that you know, the neural pathways in there are different from someone of a of a child who can just sit calmly. Through meditation, through breathing, through learning, those techniques those kids have found some relief. I think that weird now really starting to – we intuitively have known the stuff has worked but now there is the data, the hard scientific data that’s coming forward that’s saying, “Yes, what we thought works is working. We can really see that. We can assign some numbers to that.” I really think that’s the next step and that is where I want to go with my neurologist friend who wants to do some studies with what is happening inside your brain when you hear the sound of the crystal singing bowls? Is there something with just the specific sound with a specific frequency? We don’t have those answers yet but we will. That’s very exciting to me because I want to offer some palliative tool to people who are suffering. You know, we all suffer to some degree. Through anxiety or stress or fear and we all have that. So is there a way that we can anchor to a part of ourselves that is not in the drama and then stay observing? I mean that is a meditative technique. I’ve really tried to pull away from the drama of the ego but I think this helps. It helps connect to that higher expression of yourself through meditation, through listening to meditative music. You want to stay away from music with words because that then engages your left brain and you want to get into the right brain which is more holistic. More just stilt in nature.


[47:06] Ashley James: I mean music with words is okay, it’s just if you’re looking to heal with music, you want to avoid words is what you’re saying. What about when you’re chanting to yourself? Like chanting the word ohm, you are the instrument. The word is the instrument in a sense, right? The word is the music coming from you which is the instrument.


[47:28] Flicka Rahn: But you’re not having to analyze it.


[47:31] Ashley James: Okay. Yes, got it.


[47:32] Flicka Rahn: It just becomes like the sound you’re making and then at some point because of the repetition, Ashley. The mind says, “Okay, nothing to see here.” and it then can lift to a higher awareness.


[47:51] Ashley James: Okay. Yes, so chanting of a word becomes a meditation in and of itself and allows you to go into that higher state. I like that you mentioned becoming the observer in neuro linguistic programming. That is a technique where you become the fly-on-the-wall. The third person. Seeing your life as the third person allows you to analyze especially difficult situations where you can then kind of start to see the whole scenario instead of be reactive in this situation. What about headphones versus allowing the music to bathe their whole body? Is there a big difference? Can we listen to this music and gain the same benefit from hearing it through headphones or should we have speakers or the sound bathe or whole body and our whole body feels the vibration?


[48:44] Flik Rahn: I think that it addresses two therapeutic scenarios. If you listen to chakra soundscapes for example with headphones, you are harnessing the effects of entrainment. Which the binaural entrainment, which is webbed into my music. Both of the CDs have theta brainwave state and webbed in through binaural sound. Should I explain that?


[42:20] Ashley James: We will definitely get into binaural sounds in a minute because I think that’s an important topic but I definitely want people to understand like when should they listen with headphones and when should they make sure their whole body’s being bathed in sounds.


[49:32] Flicka Rahn: Okay. So when is the whole body’s being bathed in sound, the sound will then interact with the whole etheric body. The physical and the etheric body. That offers other benefits too because within our etheric body, we have places where there’s like stuck energy. If you want to attain a deep meditative state in your brain, it’s headphones. If you want to address the places in your etheric arc body that have stuck places or negative emotions are caught there, then listen with speakers on either side of you and just sit in the middle of it.


[50:17] Ashley James: Yes, all right. I think you already opened us up to the next question which is, tell us what binaural. I keep hearing binaural beats, right and I’ve listened to this on YouTube. What’s binaural beats? What’s binaural music? What does that mean?


[50:30] Flicka Rahn: Okay. So this was discovered I can’t give you the exact date of when it was discovered but it’s not been some very long ago because our technology has not allowed that with our earphones but binaural beat is, let’s say for example, okay so you’re hearing, it goes from 20 Hertz to 2000 Hertz. All the way through there, you’re able to hear like outside bird calls, your dog barking, that falls within that that spectrum but if you go below that 20 Hertz, you can’t hear it. The sound will be there but you can’t hear it. What a binaural beat does is it’s through the sound technology in the studio, they will produce a sound that a say let’s say 15 Hertz in one ear and then in the other ear they will produce 10 Hertz. Those are two different frequencies and pitches. You won’t be able to hear them but your brain does. Your brain can discern the difference between those two fifteen and ten as being five. Five Hertz that is way below hearing but that then measures and falls within the theta brainwave state which is very deep meditation. That’s where we see visions, that’s where we go into these altered states that really deep meditative state. That’s what binaural beats do for you but you have to listen to them through your headphones so that you get – the beat means that what you hear you don’t hear specific pitches but you may hear a beat. That’s why they called it binaural beats.


[52:35] Ashley James: What effect is listening in, so you want to still listen with your headphones because they does something to the left and the right, in the brain, right? Can they measure – you spent many years in academia teaching so I’m sure you like to look at the science of it. Do they have they ever hooked people up to machines or brain waves so they measure? Do they see that it measurably makes a difference to the brain waves by listening to this?


[53:04] Flicka Rahn: Absolutely. Yes, through binaural beats then they can they can put a do some brain mapping and see that the person listening to the binaural beats has slipped into these lower expressions of your brainwave state like theta certainly alpha. That yes, that’s reproducible and provable. That is a very actually, this is the way I meditate. I put my earphones on and I listen to either my music or you know sometimes others that I really like and I will very easily and quickly go into that low meditative state. Where the deep healing takes place. So yes, it’s powerful and it’s easy and it works. I really encourage your listeners to find some music on YouTube that you really like that says it’s binaural, hook your ear, put your phones on and close your eyes and drift away.


[54:09] Ashley James: Now does it make the difference whether we put the right earbud in the right ear and the left earbud in the left ear?


[54:17] Flicka Rahn: No. It doesn’t matter.


[54:18] Ashley James: Okay. So it doesn’t matter which way we have our headphones on as long as we’re wearing headphones.


[54:23] Flicka Rahn: Yes, that’s exactly right. Yes.


[54:25] Ashley James: Interesting. I always come back to this same binaural beats soundtrack when I am trying to concentrate so if I find that I – I like to multitask. I’ve got a million things going at the same time and I’m like, “Okay. I’ve got to get a podcast episode up. I got to finish editing this and I’ve got to schedule this person.” I’ve all this stuff to do and I really want to focus. There’s this one track on YouTube that I listen to. It’s for studying and focusing and it really helps. I just put it on it’s like a two-hour long track and I I just put it on in the background it with my headphones on while I work and it really helps me to stay focused so I’ve noticed that it works for me. Then they have ones out there for like weight loss and for happiness and for sleep. They’ve figured out different binaural beats that put the brain into a certain state.


[55:19] Flicka Rahn: That’s exactly, yes, yes.


[55:20] Ashley James: Can you talk a little bit about that like how did they figure out that this specific binaural beat makes someone relaxed for sleep and this one makes people happy and this one makes people want to lose weight.


[55:31] Flicka Rahn: Well, I don’t know about the lose weight. I can tell you that if you’re calm and peaceful, you may not want to eat as much because you have stress eating syndrome but we do know about the beta state and right now I’m in beta, you’re in beta because we are actively listening to each other and thinking. Beta is not a bad state to be and when you are in high beta. This is those brainwave states are well known that you are stressed. You’re in you’re in a lot of traffic and you know you’re sweating and you’re that kind of high beta. What happens is you’re not really thinking clearly and you’re in high stress. Your body interprets that is we are threatened so it down shifts into the limbic system like, “I’m going to protect myself.” All of this is not conducive to healing. That’s beta. The next one is alpha and that’s the daydreaming place. That’s where you’re taking everything in but you’re not analyzing or paying extreme attention to something. That’s alpha. That’s also very creative place. That is where you probably go into like this lovely alpha place with your music. Now if you were to go into theta you’d be falling asleep. The different brainwave states are fascinating and they each have a signature brainwave weight that people can see on a screen. We know that these two things correspond the binaural beats and also emotional states and these different brainwave states.


[57:40] Ashley James: When you’re creating binaural beats how do you know that what you’re creating is going to put someone in alpha or put someone in theta, put someone in a more relaxed state?


[57:55] Flicka Rahn: I guess I don’t know that it will but that is when we we’re finished with in the studio, we were finished with our tracks and then I gave it to a sound engineer and I said, “I want theta binaural beats webbed into each of these tracks.” and so it was sub-audible. How do I know it will? I don’t. I mean if someone is really convinced that they’re going to stay in beta they can probably override that but if you say, “Okay. I’m in for it. Whatever.”  You just give in, you’ll slip into theta or alpha. There is also another phenomena that I know your listeners know about this. The scientific term is called isochronic beats and that is different from binaural beats. Isochronic means the same thing over and over. Isochronic, one thing over and over. This is what happens when drumming. You’re in a drumming circle you’re getting isochronic beats. If the drumming is fast then you will your brainwave state will align with that faster beat. Warriors who want to get ready to go into battle, if you can remember what was it? Braveheart.

They were getting ready to go into battle and the Scottish Warriors were gearing up, they heard this loud drum going over and over and over so everybody was aligning in training to that drum. There is also a part of the brain that that loses touch with reality through that isochronic heavy drumming. This is what puts people into trance state in many indigenous societies. Through heavy drumming. It’s like the brain  pane just shuts down and doesn’t think anymore. It’s an interesting phenomenon.


[01:00:09] Ashley James: It reminds me of being in a stadium at a sports stadium where we’re all hitting the floor with our feet and then drumming starts off [Sound], the whole stadium is just banging really fast and you feel like you’re not in your body anymore. You really feel just out there. That you’re not thinking. You feel like you’re totally in the moment. It’s a very intense but very enjoyable experience. You’re right. You’re definitely not just in like regular beta anymore at that point.


[01:00:42] Flicka Rahn: Nope. You’ve lifted out and drumming can be very healing too. The slower drumming, remember that you’re going to entrain to that slower beat and that means your brainwaves are going to entrain to that slower beat and you can easily be put into alpha. If you could just imagine that whole stadium slowing down and everybody slowing everything down all of a sudden things would get really more peaceful if the drumming or the sounding slowed down.


[01:01:17] Ashley James: You’ve made this chakra soundscapes. What other and I know you have other music for meditation –


[01:01:32] Flicka Rahn: The other CD that we just released is called hymns like a hymn to Gaia. G-A-I-A. Hymms to Gaia and the subtitle is Honoring the Elements. We used the same process nothing was written down. We went into the studio and I tried to, didn’t have to but I tried to like match the water element with the sacral chakra. Which is has to do with water in your body and like the fire element was the heart and very often we see that the heart is shown as the fire of love or the fire. Then we mixed in, after we have to recorded everything then we mixed in sounds which would show these different elements like sounds of wind, sounds of water, sounds of fire, like a fireplace in a cozy cabin and then I also added the ethereal element love I saw as an element and the angelic realm. I see them as part of our energetic environment that we live in. That we may not always know or recognize but it’s there all the time. I loved doing this. We had a great time. It’s a beautiful, it’s a different experience but it can be used as for meditation as well. It’s hymms to Gaia: Honoring the elements. That’s also Icaros which is what I call. The name Icaros actually is what the sacred songs that are sung by the shaman in the Amazon. That’s what they call them the their Icaros and during sacred ceremony, I was so profoundly moved by the fact that I could actually see the sound in the air. I could see it. I saw how the beautiful songs that the shaman would sing would heal and help people manage you know to come to a place where they’re freer and more loving, more centered in themselves through this through these sounds. I jumped on board. I said, “That’s for me.”

Photo by Simon Rae on Unsplash


[01:04:28] Ashley James: I love that you traveled the world to learn from the indigenous people. I studied Hoonah many years ago. I studied Hoonah, ancient Polynesian spiritual practice and learn to do their chants. Here listening to the chants or doing it myself, I definitely went into a different state. Definitely went into a meditative state but I felt my heart would vibrate, my whole chest would feel full of love and full of energy. It was my prayer to for healing. The chanting was sort of this meditation asking for healing and I would just feel that in the moment it was so it was really a connection there was a connection there with universal energy. It was very interesting my experience with sort of indigenous music for healing. Can you take us back to when you were traveling? Share some stories about or revelations you had as you were traveling and learning from these indigenous people and learning about how they’ve always used music for healing?


[01:05:46] Flicka Rahn: I went because I felt myself that I was in need of some emotional spiritual growth and healing and as I told you before the month before, I promised myself that I would do whatever it took, I was willing to go to any anything to get free. There were things that happened in my childhood some pretty traumatic things that I wanted to I wanted to let go of in a way that was loving and that made sense to me and that I could synthesize the wisdom of those experiences without carrying the trauma. This is what drove me is, I knew that I needed to be in this lifetime as free as I could. If I was going to offer what I knew I what came here to do and that is this beautiful music infused with love so I needed to be infused with love. My own love. That is why I went it was like I cannot do this music and carry any trauma or any bitterness or any resentment or any guilt. I needed to free everything so that’s why I went down to be in the jungle with the Shipibo Indians and went through some very powerful experiences, Ashley.

In which I reviewed my whole life from the perspective of love and saw that everything made sense and so part of this process is experiencing those emotions and then moving through them so the motions the crying and the yelling and that was part of the release. I understood the process and I wasn’t afraid of that. What I wanted more than anything, I was not afraid of the crying or anything. I was afraid of carrying resentment and trauma. That was the biggest fear because that would limit me. That was my profound gift to myself is, “We’re going to do this.” and we did. That’s what drove me and then because I knew that the sound having known, that sound has led me into the divine places in my own heart and I’ve known that I was a little girl. That I would experience these moments of clarity where I knew there was something much more than what I was just seeing out of my eyes and I had some in spirit experience of enlightenment. I was familiar somewhat although the traumas in my earlier life, sometimes drew a veil over what I knew to be true. I not only wanted to know what I wanted to feel, I wanted to embody as much love as I could. So that means I’ve got empty out all the other stuff that isn’t loving. To be a true handmaiden of sound and frequency and love. That is what I did.


[01:09:34] Ashley James: You mentioned that you felt enlightened doing this. Can you take us back to that moment and share with us the experience?


[01:09:47] Flicka Rahn: Yes. It happened when I was probably, there are two times that I can recount which was not a part of a sacred ceremony enlightenmen. This just happens spontaneously. One was when I was probably about seven years old or eight years old. I was laying on a sidewalk in front of my house in Texas and it was just of starting to be dusk. I was just looking up at the sky and I could see the clouds but I could also see the stars were coming and starting to come out. I something left my body and I knew that I was a part of that. I knew it that the little Flicka on the sidewalk was just a teeny expression. I certainly have no words for it. I just knew I was part of this greater reality. I was an intregal part. That happened then the next time enlightenment happened and I think enlightenment is not like one event. It is many enlightenment events in which you get to sense the true-self in little bits as you can handle it. I was driving back from a funeral in Philadelphia and this time I lived in Boston. I was on actually the Connecticut Turnpike and I was listening to Pachelbel’s Canon which is a beautiful classical piece and for me it’s just very spiritual. I was listening Pachelbel’s Canon. It’s Orchestra and all of a sudden I felt totally enveloped and enclosed in this tube of light. Light that was so bright that it I had to pull over because I was so infused with this white light but it was not bright it was just brilliant and of course, I was sobbing because it was so beautiful and I don’t know how long I was by the side of the road in this white light but ultimately it left and I started crying now it’s so beautiful. I knew that that is what I was.

In back of everything, apart from everything that’s what I was. I was this light and I’ve been trying to get back there my entire life but it happened on the wings of music so when I sing now or when I perform music or when I do this music with Daniel, it’s like we cross a bridge into a divine playground of beauty and love. It’s exquisite. It’s what it is. My hope my music can impart some of that reality to people because that’s what that is my intention is to be so connected to love. That is what I channel so it becomes audible love. I mean that’s my wish so if people can sense this in themselves then they will know that they are not the anger, they’re not the trauma, they’re not the fear, they’re not the crisis of the moment. That they are something way beyond all of what we hear on this and dualistic planet experience. Then to identify with that and to not be afraid. There’s no reason to be afraid of anything. There’s no reason. It’s all love. That’s all it is.


[01:14:04] Ashley James: I like the saying we’re spiritual beings having a human experience. We’re spirit. We’re energy. We’re in the Christian faith, we’re made in the image of God and in other faiths there’s a belief that were that God chose to become us to experience this world. There’s many different ways of thinking about it but when it comes down to it, there’s so much more than what we can see and touch. That what we can see and touch is the illusion. That energy is the reality. That energy is in this infinite energy, is reality and that the illusion is physical. That the illusion is fear. Yes, the negative emotions are illusions and that what’s true is love. When you said that you realize that you are that light and you’re sobbing on the side of the turnpike. That you that you were enveloped with light but that you remember you remembered that you were light.

In timeline therapy it’s a technique, I’m a master a practitioner of timeline therapy, In timeline therapy, it’s you go into a light state of trance, they’re totally conscious. You travel above your timeline and when I ask people to go beyond this life so go beyond your death people see the same thing. Everyone sees they enter a brilliant light that it envelops them and is them and that you know you could call that heaven. With the afterlife when everyone imagines themselves in in this light state of trance, we all see the same thing and it’s this brilliant energy. I thought that’s just very interesting. That we all perceive when we’re not in our body anymore, the same beyond  this energy. I’ve heard so many people who can commune with angels. They all talk about this music that they hear like the angelic realm is vibrating in this music and so between I mean, there’s light. Light energy and music are all just forms of frequency.


[01:16:41] Flicka Rahn: Exactly. That’s exactly right, Yes. Everything vibrates. Through vibration comes sound and yes –


[01:16:50] Ashley James: Now you mentioned that the latest album you created was to help people release energy. Can you tell us what you meant by that?


[01:17:03] Flicka Rahn: Okay. I guess I mentioned that if there is something in your etheric body that really is a block to the free flow of electromagnetic flow. That very often that will show up as discomfort or dis-ease. So you understand what I’m saying about that, is that if you put yourself  – for example, you put yourself in that area or of the didgeridoo and you felt it. I mean you felt it in every cell of your being and I’m sure that that was like taking a sound bath that what I do too. I give sound bass once a month at the little clinic where I have see my clients and people come in the bathe and themselves they allow themselves to be bathed in these different frequencies. That breaks up the – is this what you’re referring to? That breaks up the blockages or the places where the energy gets thick. Where it doesn’t flow. So there’s no flow of Chi so to speak. A problem and if there is a free flow then the body is able to bring itself into consonants and heal itself.


[01:18:37] Ashley James: Yes. You talk about maybe the stagnation where people get locked. It’s Interesting. In Hoonah, there’s this visualization of the body as a river. Imagine a beautiful river because in Hawaii they have these gorgeous rivers and so you imagine your body’s this river and the river it represents the flow of Chi. The flow of energy through the body, through the meridian system, through the chakras radiance. Negative emotions and limiting decisions and unhealed unresolved past memories are seen as little black bags where that store that negative experience and are like a big boulder in the river. Distorting the flow of the energy and so their visualization is all these black bags may be stored in your body and you imagine a river with no stones that it flows very nicely. There’s no rapids, there’s no turmoil in the river but you put a bunch of boulders in the river and now there’s waves and it’s disruptive. Their description is you want to really work at resolving the trapped the trap trapped negative emotions and limiting decisions and negative past experiences that are stuck in your physical body.

They’re in your energetic body but there actually can be triggered in your physical body and release them. Gain the positive learnings and heal from them because they cuts off the flow, it creates stagnation. We said release energy. It reminded me of that – I was a massage therapist back many years ago. I had a really interesting experience. I was receiving a massage by my instructor in in college as a demonstration. I was the demo and she was working on my back laterally by my shoulder blade coming up around my arm on the outside of the armpit basically and I began to sob uncontrollably. I couldn’t stop sobbing. The class ended and she held me just put her hands on me on the table and I sobbed for an hour. I couldn’t stop. I had no idea what was going on and I just obviously released but she, I mean, she was a massage therapist for many years so she knew it was going on. 19 years old that was my first experience with this happening and she said that, you know sometimes the body can hold on to the – can in the muscle will hold on to that little button that little trigger and but by getting massage. Massage can be a spiritual and an emotional healing tool as well because it allows you to release these trapped energies.

I imagine combining energy work with like for massage therapists listening, combining energy work with your songs would really help. I’ve had these experiences. My husband had a similar experience. He went for a Reiki class and no, it was before the Reiki class. He had Reiki, his girlfriend, this a long time ago gave him Reiki and he burst into tears, sobbed uncontrollably for an hour and then laughed. He said he never felt love like that before. Just universal love and then he just became a raving fan of Reiki because it was just for him, he just never had anything that allowed him to cry and feel such release. He had no idea where was coming from. We have this trapped in our body as so many of us walk around so stoic because that’s what we were taught but there’s this there’s so much available. So many tools out there available for emotional healing for this release as you say so that we can get back in touch with who we truly are which is connected to spirit, connected to the universal energy. That we are that love and that light actually. I love that you’re creating these tools through your talents to help people achieve that. What about the day to day problems that people have with anxiety, procrastination and motivation? Sometimes people get in this cycle of stress that – we don’t feel stress, right? Stress is kind of like we don’t feel it until we break but we do feel anxiety or procrastination or we do feel sort of get that stuck this or that stagnation in life where we don’t have that motivation and then the anxiety kind of just overwhelms us so we get stuck again. What can we do to break free from that?


[01:23:46] Flicka Rahn: I think all of those reflect kind of this and most of it is subconscious but that there is some fear around that activity. We don’t know. I mean it comes up as anxiety but really if you keep going down deeper and deeper there’s some fear of what’s going to happen or me not being good enough or I’m not going to say the right thing. So what you do is you procrastinate so you don’t have to go into what you fear but you don’t really understand where that is coming from because it’s subconscious. Again, to realign yourself with your Divine self is the way out of that and to become another person and a person that is not caught up in their daily routines of being a certain way or feeling a certain way about a person or going through the same habits. You then try to create this other self that is more whole, more a happier and some of this is through your own observation. “Oh, there I am I’m doing it again. I don’t want to do that because I want my life to be about happiness and love and compassion so I’m going to choose to do this.” Sometimes it’s hard to give up Ashley, because I find that people and I know you probably find this they have an investment in being a victim or they have an investment in being hurt or bitter.

There’s a payoff for them. If they really want to get well then they’re going to have to give up their addiction to those negative reactions and say, “No. I’m not going to do that anymore. I’m going to go towards love and I meditate every day so that I continue to stay connected to this. To the divine expression of who I am.” There are times when I, I’m human you know. I get angry at drivers on the road that are doing stupid stuff so but at least I’m aware, “Oh, there I lost. I lost touch with myself.” Send that person compassion instead of the alternative but it takes awareness and it takes such an investment in wanting to be free or to be whole or to be in love with yourself and in love with the world. If people knew and this is what I am trying to do is to give you a taste of what the peach tastes like. This is the peach. The peach is the best but if somebody says, “I don’t know what a peach is. I don’t even know if I want to come over there and have a peach. I like it over here eating free fries.” That’s what I try to do through this music is to say, “This is the peach. I’m going to give you a little taste of it. Do you like it? If you like it, there’s a lot more.” That’s the deal. When I go over there and I’m eating french fries and I’m thinking, “Oh, my god. I will back off the same, “Look at you Flicka. You’re eating french fries when you could be having a peach.”


[01:27:15] Ashley James: Right. We all indulge in the self-pity and the anger and all that. It’s the human, the ego wants to have a little fun and the ego gets to have it’s fun but then to become the observer and go, “Oh, isn’t that interesting that I did that? Isn’t that interesting? What’s the payoff there? Is this the quality of life I really want? Well, no. Okay. So my ego got to have some fun. Let’s get back to creating a connection with the divine and getting back to remembering that I am loved.” Did you definitely need to become conscious of it. There’s stages of mastery. The first, being unconscious of it. We’re totally unconscious and then there’s that conscious incompetence. Where we have to keep catching our self and building that muscle and going, “Oh, look I did it again.” but now you caught yourself only five minutes into being angry instead of 15 minutes into being angry, right? Then we keep catching ourselves. My husband is a great example. He used to really have a lot of road rage where, I mean he wouldn’t like take it out on people except the people in the car would throw this, he wasn’t happy. I would catch him and be like, “You know you don’t know what that person might be having a really bad day. Maybe they just didn’t see you in their blind spot. You’re always assuming the worst.”

Just reminding him and now bad drivers don’t bother him. Whereas they used to really, he’s a Virgo. No one can – everyone has to be perfect on the road apparently but now he can just he can just let it go. It’s funny because he’ll catch himself and he’ll be like, he’ll say, “Do you see that? Do you see that? Oh, that that person cut me off and I didn’t freak out. Do you see it?” so he got to the point where he’s catching himself going, “Oh, look. I didn’t do that old behavior.” or I’ll catch himself getting angry and then go, “Oh, okay. That’s not who I want to be. That’s not the quality of life I want. I’m not going to choose that.” We have to catch ourselves so in catching ourselves, we create a break state of our neurology and we’re creating a new neural pathway.


[01:29:31] Flicka Rahn: Exactly. Yes. Now I wrote about this very same thing the road rage because it happened – I’m with your husband here. I do it too. Although it’s been so long since I’ve allowed that to you know change mine. The stress hormones which are released when you get angry but I did the same thing. I mentioned this in my book. I want to make sure that we know that all of this information is in my book. That what I’ve learned to do is to say, “I don’t know what’s going on with that person but they may be going to the hospital to see a loved one or they have some emergency.” I reframe the event so that I can stay centered in myself and not get thrown out of who I really am. Because ultimately, I’m the one who pays. The person who you know cut me off they’re on their merry way but I am left with all these horrible stress hormones coursing. The adrenaline coursing through my body. I don’t like the way that feels. Some of it is self-preservation I’m going to stay loving but it’s best for me. Ultimately of course, everybody else. Yes, that is a technique I’m continued, of course we all continue to learn but it has become a lot easier is to look at the event and reframe it so that I don’t spin out of control.

Photo by Andre Hunter on Unsplash


[01:31:07] Ashley James: Do you have stories that you can share from people who have had positive experiences listening to your CDs has anyone shared with you results?


[01:31:19] Flicka Rahn: Yes. A lot of people have said that just listening to my CD it and it’s extremely grounding and comforting and loving. A friend of mine who actually lives in Mexico, I just got back from Mexico. She was going through extremely difficult period and she’s she is a shaman and she said that she saw into that music what it does and I can’t do that but she has that ability. She said it is very – it heals DNA. Now I don’t know that, Ashley. But I’m telling just what she said and she had been through a huge trauma in her life. She listened to it like two hours a day and she said it really helped her come back into herself because trauma tends to separate us from ourselves.


[01:32:22] Ashley James: Right. Well, trauma, they can actually test DNA and see if your ancestor had trauma. They’ve proven this. Because we’re just still we’re learning so much about DNA and epigenetics. Epigenetics means that the certain DNA that can turn on and off. Become like suppressed or can activate. It can turn on and off different enzymatic processes in the body. The best example is and I’ve said this on the podcast before but for new listeners, they did a study where they took white mice. This cute, fluffy, soft white mice and they exposed them to the same amount of bisphenol A. BPA per body weight that we would be exposed to on a daily basis. If we were to touch of receipts every day when we buy things there’s BPA on there. Drinking from plastic bottles and cans that have BPA. You might think, well, I don’t buy those things but if you eat out at any kind of restaurant you have exposure to BPA because restaurants really don’t care. They’re going to buy the cheapest things possible so their canned foods or sauces, whatever. Their condiments are going to have BPA in them. Through the food industry BPA is just leached into our food unless you eat a whole food plant-based diet where you’re buying organic and just cooking everything from scratch which is what I teach. We actually I just launched a membership called learn true health home kitchen. I teach that. How to cook whole foods so that you’re getting the purest nutrition you can to heal the body through food.

So this BPA they exposed these mice to it and the mice quickly turned yellow, their fur went from white to yellow and from a nice softness to a coarse hay straw like feel and then they became obese. They didn’t really change their diet other than giving them the BPA but what it did is epigenetically changed their genes to make them become obese and to make them not be able to make beautiful fur. Then they stopped giving the mice BPA and it took several generations. They followed these mice for several generations before they just fed them water and food instead of the BPA but I think it was over three generations until the mice returned back to being white again and having the soft white fur and not no longer being obese.

Epigenetically their DNA was damaged for several generations. We see this with ancestors of those in the Holocaust during World War II. Those who spent time in Auschwitz or were severely emotionally harmed during World War II. Even their grandchildren they can see when they do DNA test, they can see the epigenetic gene expressions of trauma, of stress. They have higher levels just at resting state of stress hormones. What we do in this lifetime will affect our grandchildren directly through our DNA and though the healing that we do in the detoxifying and the nutrifying that we do, they’re seeing now can actually affect our DNA for generations to come. It’s not only healing yourself that aids your healing for your children and grandchildren. I think that’s it’s really fascinating. The fact that this healer sees that your music has a role to play in healing DNA. I wouldn’t be surprised that everything is energy.


[01:36:01] Flicka Rahn: There is a study that I mentioned in my book and I’m sorry, I don’t have it at my fingertips but I’ll recount what it was. It was a study done by taking some DNA in which they put into a petri dish and they subjected it to heat so the DNA “died” or uncurled. It was essentially destroyed and then they had people hold the dish with the hurt DNA and directed loving thoughts to that, I know this sounds crazy, to the DNA and the DNA recoiled. There is a way through love to heal ourselves and to heal the DNA that has been traumatized through toxic thoughts, experiences, down regulated so to speak. That’s through this the power of love which carries probably I’m thinking a very coherent geometry. That the DNA can then reform around this coherent geometry which that’s also a huge subject that we could talk about. How they’re now understanding that this field that we are in the zero-point field is filled with information and energy but there is a uniform geometry that they’re finding that is common throughout everything that saturates everything. I don’t know if you know the work of a Nassim Haramein. He’s a physicist in Hawaii actually and has been studying the geometric shape of the field.


[01:38:05] Ashley James: Interesting. What you’re saying is reminding me of Masaru Emoto, his work. The book. The hidden messages in water where he would emit love or hate and freeze water and then under a microscope you see that water looks so beautiful in the geometric shapes are just divine when you emit love to it but when you emit hate or anger it looks distorted and polluted.


[01:28:38] Flicka Rahn: Right. Then they give the polluted water to some Japanese monks and have them love that water. They take another sample and the water has reformed into those coherent shapes. It sounds to me like love is the variable that helps things become more ordered. Are you familiar with the work of Hans Jenny and cymatics?


[01:39:04] Ashley James: It sounds really familiar but I don’t know tell us.


[01:39:07] Flicka Rahn:  Okay. So cymatics is the study of sound made visible. What he did and this was in like the early 1900’s maybe up through the 50s. He would take like a brass plate and sprinkle particulates on it or sand. Then introduce a specific pitch and then the sound would form into these beautiful like mandalas. Beautiful shapes that correspond and it’s reproducible under the same circumstances that they would always form the same shape. Then there were other researchers who put particulates in water and the same thing would happen once introduced to specific pitches or frequencies.  Snowflakes, I think snowflakes just are showing us the geometry of the field. If the field is love then that is like the rosetta stone of all of these expressions. My music is tuned to a 432 and I don’t know if you’re familiar with all of that work. It’s a way of tuning, Ashley. It will sound warmer to you. I’s a little bit not as sharp.

It’s a little bit under pitch because we tuned to at 440 Hertz. Universally, all music is at a 440 Hertz but throughout history certainly in the in the Romantic period it’s a musical period and before instruments were tuned lower than 440 Hertz. Some higher but for the most part it’s 432 Hertz because when you see pitches tuned at 432 Hertz, the geometry is beautiful and it’s coherent. It’s much more balanced. Knowing all of that, all of my music is at 432 Hertz which sounds warmer so your body can accept that geometry because it matches because it’s a whole kind of sacred geometry and the fibonacci spiral and everything. All of those shapes that we see in nature are then reproduced in the sound that if the instruments are tuned down to 432 Hertz. Have you heard an orchestra that the oboe plays one note and then everybody kind of tunes off of that one note that the oboe plays? Have you ever experienced that when you go to a symphony orchestra? Well, they do and then the oboe then is toning an A pitch at 440 Hertz. Then everybody else in the orchestra tunes to that but if the oboist drops it just a little bit, just a little bit to 432 Hertz, then the orchestra would tune down a little bit and the sound is warmer to your ears. Your body can accept that because that is our natural, we are sacred geometry beings. Geometrically, we align with that.


[01:42:56] Ashley James: How does the musician know to go to – I can understand knowing how to play a C note but how do you play hertz? How do you know to go to a certain hertz? You need a device to read the Hertz?


[01:43:15] Flicka Rahn: Yes, and there are lots of tuners out now that you can get that will direct you to that 432 Hertz. Both of my CDs are tuned down to 432 a at 432 Hertz. Certainly, every note is a different hertz because hertz designates the frequency and the pitch. But you have to have a touchstone you say, “Okay. I’m going to use this as my tuning center.” The oboist, they can even use a tuner. They’ll hold up a little tuner. They’ll blow into the tuner and then they’ll go to their oboe and they’ll sure that they match that tuner. You asked me why did things change because it used to be that things were tuned down to a 432. There’s a whole conspiracy theory that goes up around –


[01:44:14] Ashley James: I want to hear it.


[01:44:16] Flicka Rahn: Oh, my god. Okay. We got into it.


[01:44:19] Ashley James: I want to hear it. So because back before TV, music was so – that’s what we did. That was entertainment. Even kings and queens five hundred years ago would pay composers. It was a status symbol to have a composer write you. That’s sort of my dream is I’m going to win the lottery one day and like I’ll pay a composer to make me as a symphony. It’s such a outlandish but beautiful thing to promote the arts obviously but just imagine if you had the ability to have a have a composer write you a song. That was such a big deal and music, we bade themselves in music so often and now, we watch TV and don’t bathe ourselves in music. This was my dad’s, that was his mission was to get people back to listening to music. That’s one of his things why he invented his speakers and promoted that. I lived it. I lived his vision. Well, my dad’s time was before cellphones but his thing was, “Why do families come home and stare at a boob tube together when they could put on music and they could talk and they could connect and they could have this loving family time.” He wanted people to return back to that. Tell me the conspiracy theory around changing the hertz in music. When did that take place?


[01:49:49] Flicka Rahn: Okay. Well, first of all, your dad was so right. There is nothing that forms bonds of loving feelings than doing music together. What would going to church be without everybody getting up and singing a hymn. There’s this energetic flow that happens through making music or listening to music together. Yay, dad. The conspiracy theory and I tend to think it’s not so much conspiracy that it’s really true. During the Second World War, before the Second World War, there were lots of composers. This very famous composer Verdi. I don’t know, it’s Giuseppe Verdi. Wrote many operas and he insisted that his orchestra tune to 432 because he said it is easier on his Sopranos. What he didn’t know is that the geometry of the body matched that specific way of tuning and if you tuned up it goes against the geometry of your body.

He was a big believer in that. At World War II, there was this whole propaganda machine that Hitler got into play as a way of controlling the German population. One way he wanted to control them is to make them a little bit anxious because if you have people who are anxious they’re going to get behind a guy who says, “I got the way out for us. We’re going to go out. We’re going to conquer the world.”  but you don’t want them feeling comfortable and loving. No. You want them on edge because you can control them. Goebbels his minister of propaganda decided that all the music that they were going to use is we’re going to be up at four hundred and forty Hertz. Which makes you feel a little bit more on edge and you can go to YouTube right now and look at examples. Look up 432 versus 440 and you can hear the same piece played tuned a 440 and the same piece of music played at 432 and just subjectively experience that. That’s easy to do. That’s fun.


[01:48:18] Ashley James: You know what’ll be fun is get your get your partner, like you get blindfolded and get your partner to randomly choose whether they’re going to play the 440 Hertz which creates anxiety versus the 432 Hertz which is healing. Then you feel your body and you see if you feel on edge or you see if you feel connected and happy and content. That would be a fun home experiment.


[01:48:44] Flicka Rahn: Right. Yes. Well, subjectively, I feel better when I hear music in 400 and here, I wonder if I could do it right now because I have my tuner on my phone. Alright. So here is and I will tune so that your listeners can hear this. Here is a note played in 432. Okay. Now here is the same note played in 440.


[01:49:23] Ashley James: It does sound just like a little bit anxious. I got that, yes.


[01:49:26] Flicka Rahn: So here’s again 432. This is the calm pitch. Okay. Now here is 440.


[01:49:51] Ashley James: Hitler made all the music be played at 440 Hertz to make people anxious and so they’re not happy with their present situation in life.


[01:50:05] Flicka Rahn: Exactly. Yes. That’s the way you control people. Engender fear and anxiety and stress and they’re going to look for a way so that can go away. So he said follow me, I’ll make that go away.


[01:50:18] Ashley James: How did he know to do that?


[01:50:21] Flicka Rahn: That I don’t know, Ashley. That I do not know but interestingly enough after World War II and there is also other conspiracy theories that the Rockefellers who were invested in a lot of, I’m not sure if I’m trailing all of this correctly but I knew they were involved is that then they approached the American Federation of musicians and then the worldwide Federation to make the standard 440. Now you can say maybe they wanted us all on edge so that they could control us and that was a worldwide conspiracy I don’t know. But that is what happened so that if a flute player in the United States can go to an orchestra in Japan and they’ll tune the same way. There had to be a standard but they chose that higher standard so that so that the population would feel ill at ease and not as anchored or centered.


[01:51:31] Ashley James: That’s so interesting because we listen to classical music in the car. Often we’re driving with our son. We often most of the time, I say 90% of time we’re listening to classical music. There are some times when I feel like I should be very comfortable and at ease in this a beautiful song but I’m not. I get agitated. I’m , “What’s going on?” The music is and I have to like change it to a different classical station and I’m just wondering if that was the Hertz. Very interesting that they chose to stick to 440 Hertz around the world. Well, the thing is that if they knew they could prosper from it because when you were feeling uncomfortable in your own skin, you will seek dopamine. You will seek pleasure. You’ll spend money and you won’t spend time doing internal exploration. Becoming a sovereign individual. Becoming a higher thinker. Becoming more spiritually connected.

You’re going to spend more time trying to soothe the anxiety through staying in a low level so it’s easier to control a population that’s uncomfortable or that’s in pain. Than control population of a very comfortable, happy, free thinkers so that really does make sense. We want to make sure we want to be conscious. This is why my husband doesn’t – he prefers that we don’t listen to music with words because he doesn’t want to be enslaved to the mainstream narrative. Let’s just say that. Because when you’re listening to music you’re in a state of trance and if you’re taking in words that are telling you the world is a certain way then you are a slave to that narrative and if you go dive into the history of the music industry, there’s a lot of control there. We have you just did but there’s modern-day music industry. There’s a lot of control there and so I like to listen to independent musicians who aren’t trying to manipulate us but are just trying to spread love like you are. We’re being conscious. I think I like that you really bring up a point to be conscious of the music you play because it can be used as a weapon against you or use as a tool to heal.


[01:53:59] Flicka Rahn: Yes. My business partner her name is Tammy McCreary. She also was a co-author with me. She wrote the last chapter in my book and she is a manager for artists in Los Angeles. She absolutely sees that the music that is being offered now is very detrimental because yes, you’re right. That people do, they are in trance when they listen to music and so that allows the message of the words just to be accepted blindly by a brain that is not really thinking.


[01:54:42] Ashley James: It’s hypnosis.


[01:54:43] Flicka Rahn: Exactly, Ashley. Yes, right. Her goal is to wake up the musicians and say, “You have this incredible power you’ve been given. Be very careful with this because you create the future of our young people.” I get very concerned for them. I really do. I certainly don’t listen to it but your husband is right. Don’t be enslaved by – See now, I didn’t think about that you are in a kind of hypnotic trance.


[01:55:17] Ashley James: I’m a master practitioner and trainer of hypnosis. You’re talking about that music sends you from beta to alpha, what’s hypnosis. Then you’re taking in words that have suggestions that create imagery in your mind. Even in an unconscious level those are, its slipping past the conscious mind and slipping into becoming unconscious suggestions.


[01:55:44] Flicka Rahn: There no evaluation. It just goes straight in.


[01:55:47] Ashley James: Right. You’re not using your critical thinking.


[01:55:51] Flicka Rahn: Yes, yes. Amazing.


[01:55:53] Ashley James: So you listen to something over and over again and you like really – I have a friend who listens to heavy metal and he’s just a very angry person and he reinforces it and you’ve said this earlier but he reinforces it with the music he chooses to listen to. The music we choose to listen to can reinforce our neurology. Can  reinforce the way we’re thinking and our thoughts. Create our actions or actions create our behavior and our results in life. If we want to be in a state of loving empathy and be able to connect with others we need to make sure the music we choose matches that.  Hopefully at 432 hertz. Now that we know that.


[01:56:43] Flicka Rahn: Yes, right. You know there are stations or YouTube stations that have, this is not ideal but they’ve tuned things down like the orchestral pieces. The famous ones. It’s certainly better if it’s recorded from 430 Hertz rather than to be manipulated by a sound engineer to drop it down. That’s better. So that may be interesting for you to listen to expressions of the same piece to see.


[01:57:17] Ashley James: Oh, so cool. Well, it’s really interesting is after this interview I’m rushing off with my son to take him to the Seattle Children’s Chorus where he is taking classes. He’s four years old. He’s about to be five but he’s taking singing classes. It’s so adorable to see these four-year-olds singing together so that’s what I’m doing later today. I’m about to go bathe myself for an hour in children’s singing which I’m really looking forward to. Flicka Rahn, it has been such a pleasure having you here today. I would love to have you back. This has been so much fun exploring this. Thanks for getting into the really interesting topics and this is the kind of stuff I just love exploring. I really feel like we hit the meat of it by understanding that we want to vibrate with a frequency of 432. That we want to choose music that is meant to heal us and make sure that we avoid music that isn’t going to bring us healing. That isn’t either the lyrics or the sound is not in alignment with our healing goals. We want to be conscious of that because music can be a weapon or can be a tool for healing. I love that you uncovered that for us. Is there anything you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview?


[01:58:35] Flicka Rahn: No. I just want to really encourage people to like if you’re changing a pattern be aware. Just be aware of what you’re hearing. Go into the supermarket and be aware of what you’re hearing or if you’re out in nature the sound of the birds carry such high healing frequencies so you’re being bathed in those beautiful higher frequencies that are natural in the natural world. I think just waking up and just saying, “What am I really hearing here? What am I listening to? Is that helping me or do I feel more loving now or do I feel more anxious now?” Just maybe understand that sound can have a huge impact on you as we know. It’s sound and music. To not forget about the beautiful gift of toning and help how quickly you can move to a place of peace and just calmness by doing that. If you go to your dentist, give it a shot cool. It works. I tell you, it works.



[01:59:56] Ashley James: Awesome. Cool. I’m going to tell my husband. He’s got a dental cleaning coming up next week. I’m going to teach this to him. That’s so cool. Flicka, thank you so much. Of course, the links to everything that Flicka Rahn does, it’s going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at learntruehealth.com. I’ve decided I’m going to edit this episode so listeners who are hearing this have already experienced. I’m going to sprinkle your music throughout the episode. Also, now at the end of the episode. Thank you so much for gifting us some of your music that we could include in this and if listeners would like to buy your music and buy your book, please check out the show notes of today’s podcasts. Where you’ll find the links to Flicka’s book and her CDs. Also, we’d love to see you live so tell me if you’re ever going to be up in Seattle. On your website, do you display where you are when you tour?


[02:22:52] Flicka Rahn: That is forthcoming. Let’s just put that.


[02:00:53] Ashley James: Okay. Looking forward to that. Looking forward to seeing that information on your website actually. Thank you so much Flicka.


[02:01:01] Flicka Rahn: Thank you, Ashley. It’s been delightful really honey and have fun tonight with your son. That’s great.


[02:01:06] Ashley James: I will.


[Flicka Rahn Music]



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Anthony Losquadro And Ashley James


  • Who are the Blood-stained Men
  • The history of circumcision
  • Effects of circumcision
  • Stages of foreskin restoration
  • What Intaction does
  • How to properly clean a baby’s intact genital


In this episode, Anthony Losquadro shares with us the history of circumcision and which countries have the highest rate of circumcised men. He also shares with us the effects of circumcision on men. Lastly, he shares how parents should clean a baby boy’s intact genital.


[0:00] Intro: Hello, true health seeker and welcome to another episode of Learn True Health podcast. I know a lot of moms and dads listen to this show, a lot of grandparents too and some future parents listen to this show as well so this really applies to everyone. Even if you don’t have male genitals I think you will still really get a lot out of this episode. It was mind-blowing to me the things that I learned from Anthony about foreskin and about circumcision. Something that we should all know especially if you’re going to be a mom of a future boy. It’s really worth knowing this information. Please, share today’s episode with your friends and your family members especially those who are pregnant or expecting or who are planning to have children. This episode is going to be that ripple. We throw that stone in the pond and watch the ripple and watch how far that ripple goes and how many lives it can help. So, I’m so excited that you’re listening to this episode and you’re sharing it so that we can get this information out there.

Now, if you’ve been a listener for a while, you know that recently I launched something I’ve been working on for a while. I launched the Learn True Health Home Kitchen, which is a membership where we teach you. We make all kinds of videos, teach you how to cook whole foods, really healthy healing foods. The focus is on using food as medicine, using food to heal the body. Well, one of our members, Emily, just shared the other day in the Learn True Health Facebook group and by the way if you’re not in the Facebook group already you are welcome to join us. It’s a very supportive community. Just go to Facebook and search Learn True Health.

Emily shared her testimonial and it was so good I wanted to share it with you. She says, “I have to share. I joined the Learn True Health Home Kitchen five days ago and have successfully gone from meat three times a day to only after 5:00 PM. My kids are eating actual vegetables less cheese sticks. My daughter’s poo has, for the first time in years, been a normal consistency. I don’t plan on going fully without animal products, but this resource and community that Ashley and Naomi have put together has helped me get a grip on my fridge and put me back in control of what goes in and out of it.” She says that her husband is now back to fasting like he used to before and that since she cut out processed cereal for the last five days that she noticed that her headaches have gone away. She says that her fridge is full of whole foods, lots of plants and that for the first time in this mother’s life she says, “I am not the only one eating those vegetables in the fridge.

So, she’s really excited that all her kids are eating the vegetables. She says she loves the bowls module and the resources that we share. She thanks us and she says that she’s also cut way back on her coffee intake. She noticed that she has so much more energy,  that she’s not drinking coffee throughout the day and she’s actually getting to sleep better at night. So, she’s very excited and she wanted to share her experience.

We’ve had others already share since we launched it about two weeks ago that their experience in the memberships has been really positive. The whole resource, Learn True Health Home Kitchen, is for everyone. You don’t have to give up meat to be part of it. We’re teaching you how to cook more vegetables, how to cook more plants, how to get more healing foods into your diet. The point of it is that wherever you are on the spectrum whether you want to eat meat at every meal or whether you want to eat no meat at all or anywhere in between, you’re going to use the videos to learn how to use food as medicine.

Naomi and I choose to eat a whole food plant-based diet. We choose not to eat meat anymore and we’re noticing that’s really healing for our bodies. I respect that everyone’s at a different part in their journey, but if you listen to your body, you can dial in your diet for you. Maybe that means eating more fruit, more vegetables, more whole foods, less processed foods, less sugar, less oil, less highly processed foods and more real food. That’s what we’re teaching you. We also teach how to cook food very quickly that’s very healthy, how to save you a ton of money eating really healthy and how to be able to cook food that is super delicious, saves you money, saves you time for the whole family including picky husbands and children.

So, if you love to learn any kind of resources to heal your body in your kitchen and help your family eat healthy, then come join the Learn True Health Home Kitchen. You can get a free tour. There’s a video that gives you a tour. Just go to LearnTrueHealth.com/homekitchen. That’s LearnTrueHealth.com/homekitchen and use the coupon code LTH for the big listener discount. Thank you so much for being a listener. I really hope to see you in the Learn True Health Home Kitchen because we are adding new recipes every week. It’s just growing and growing and it’s so much fun to see people expanding their palate and healing their body with food.

Thank you so much for sharing today’s episode. Thank you so much for being a listener. Enjoy today’s episode and enjoy the rest of your day.


Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 408.


Photo by Matheus Ferrero on Unsplash


[0:06:08] Ashley James: I am so excited for today’s guest and for this topic. I’m really passionate about this topic and we’ve never covered it on the show after over 400 episodes with all kinds of topics. When Anthony reached out to me, my husband actually saw the email first and he got really excited because the two of us are very passionate about this. It isn’t talked about enough in the society. So, I love that Anthony that you are an advocate, that you are giving a voice to the children who don’t have a voice. So, thank you so much for coming on the show today and talking about something that I didn’t even think about until I was actually pregnant. I didn’t even think about it.

We were in San Diego, right around the Convention Center, there was a bunch of men protesting. We were driving by and life has it that we have the right kind of timing in life. So, the red light came and we were right there at the red light, the very first car. There’s a bunch of men standing there holding signs with babies on it. I couldn’t really understand what they were protesting. They were wearing white boxer shorts and white shirts with a big red dot on their crotch. The sign says something like, “I was never given a choice.”

We sat there and we were scratching our heads going, “What are they talking about?” Then finally it hit us. They were protesting circumcision. They were spreading awareness about the choice. The ability to choose whether to be circumcised or not. Well, we kept driving when the light turned green but this sparked a conversation between my husband and I. It began our dive into looking at circumcision and the pros and cons because up until then I thought circumcision was of incredibly positive thing. I mean, don’t all men get circumcised because isn’t the foreskin dirty and nasty and we shouldn’t have it. Haven’t men done this for thousands of years? Isn’t it in the Bible?

Well, lo and behold. We started looking deeper and deeper. We saw that babies die in the United States from circumcision. That it actually causes a lot of damage. My husband ended up discovering that some issues that he’s had his entire life that he didn’t realize that they were actually caused by his circumcision. He said it was okay for me to share this because he said if even one man learned something from his experience or even when parent learned something from his experience, then he would be really happy.

So, when we saw your email that you wanted to come on the show and share your information, oh man I was so excited. So, welcome to the show.


[0:09:13] Anthony Losquadro: Ashley, thanks for having me on the show. You really started off at a great introduction. The group that you saw was a group known as the Blood-stained Men. They travel around the country raising awareness on this issue that like what you said, a lot of people never have given any thought.


[0:09:31] Ashley James: Right. Well, at the time we were pregnant, we knew we were probably but we didn’t know that we were pregnant with our son. So, by the time we were ready to give birth we were 100% sure that circumcision was off the table. We had seen the information and we came to a very educated decision that the healthiest thing for our son was to allow him to be intact. What was really interesting is in talking to our doctors about this because we had several of them, I’m kind of an overachiever in that sense. We had midwives and naturopaths and OBGYNs that we all were working with. All of them started to share these really interesting statistics that blew my mind. That it’s actually becoming more and more common for parents not to circumcise.

My husband’s concern would be that if our son was the only one not circumcised in the locker room he’d be embarrassed or something because his would look different. Well, first of all men, don’t go around staring at each other in the locker room, but he was worried that maybe our son would wonder why he looked different. Then all the doctors were sharing with us that in certain areas of the United States, it’s almost half of men. It’s something like 40 something percent of men are not circumcised. So, it’s becoming more and more common, which is good because parents are waking up to this information.

I’m really curious though, Anthony, what happened in your life that made you want to become an advocate around this? Now, your website is intaction.org. Of course, links to everything that you do is going to be the show so today’s podcast at LearnTrueHealth.com. Tell us your story. What happened that made you want to become the founder and director of Intaction and that you wanted to give children a voice and help raise awareness around the importance of an intact body?


[0:11:34] Anthony Losquadro: Well, Ashley, there’s a number of things that have impacted my life that kind of put me on the path that I’m on. When I first started, this issues I became aware of it when I was a very young boy. I was maybe seven or eight years old and I went to Florence, Italy. I saw all of these sculptures and statues by Michelangelo for instance. First of all, I saw these statues they’re all naked. So, I thought that was pretty crazy. The male statues, the male figures all had intact penises. I started to wonder what happened to them or why were they different from me? Why were they different from us? Something didn’t seem to add up to me. That’s when the first earliest days I started to recognize it something was being done.

Growing up I always noticed on my body there was a scar on my penis that everybody had circumcised has a scar. It’s from the device they used to crush the foreskin. I could never recall anything happening to me but why was my body this way and why wasn’t anybody talking about it? So, later on in life as I began to research this issue and information became more available over the internet, I started to have a better understanding. The thing they say once you start learning about circumcision, the more you learn the more shocked you become.


[0:13:14] Ashley James: It’s so true. I’m shocked that female babies are circumcised because that is brutal. I guess in our society we accept male circumcision as normal but female circumcision is barbaric. Well, they’re actually both incredibly barbaric.


[0:13:34] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. That’s right. All of the issues that surround male genital cutting are the same when it comes to female genital cutting or female genital mutilation, whatever you want to call it or female circumcision. The word circumcision, first of all, it’s just a euphemism to really cover up what they’re actually doing. What we’re doing when we say we’re going to circumcise is we’re cutting genitals. We are cutting normal healthy body parts whether it’s off of a boy or whether it’s off of a girl. I don’t like to get into a debate who’s got it worse. Do little girls have it worse than little boys or vice versa? Deaths occur in both sides, complications occur in both sides, pain and trauma occur in both sides.

So, I don’t like to say that one has a greater standing on the issue than the other. It’s human genital cutting. We need to stop cutting babies altogether and young children altogether.


[0:14:41] Ashley James: So, you started to look into it. You started to question it. What happened in your life though that made you become the founder and director of Intaction? What clicked for you? Is there a story there?


[0:14:56] Anthony Losquadro: I felt that I had a lot of experience in the business world and I can apply some of this to create change in America and to help educate Americans about why we need to re-examine this issue, but really the seminal moment for myself and for many others in the intactivist movement and we like to call ourselves intactivists, which is just a conjugation of intact activists so promoting intact bodies. In 2012, the American Academy of Pediatrics came out with a statement that seemed to reverse where their previous stance was and they seemed to encourage circumcision despite much lobbying on side of intactivists for them not to do this. It was almost preordained.

When they decided to change the policy. They claimed they were going to study all the literature. They were going to do a comprehensive investigation on this, but I know they pre-baked the cake. They knew what the decision was going to be before they even started it. I know this because I have thousands and thousands of their emails, which I was able to obtain. I can see the deliberations between the committee members. They were going to go to a positive pro-circumcision policy statement way before 2012. They started this in 2009. They issued their statement in 2012.

This incensed many intactivists like myself. The American Academy of Pediatrics, first and foremost people have to understand, they are not an organization that promotes the interest of children first. They are a doctors’ trade association. They are there. It’s all about the money, unfortunately, like many things in this country and many things in the world. I hate to say and it’s a bit of a cliché but it is all about the money. Because if you look in their policy statement in 2012, one of the things they were very outspoken on is that insurance payments must continue for infant circumcisions. So, this is a big moneymaker for hospitals and for the doctors that do them.

So, this incensed many people. It incensed me. I felt like if innocent babies. Our children, have this goliath against them, who’s going to speak for them? Who’s going to help educate the parents to be able to stand up to all this pressure? I could tell you. When my own son was born they kept pestering us, “Are you going to cut them?” “No.” You’re going to circumcise him? Let’s circumcise. They pressure, the doctors pressure parents to do it. So, I felt the need that I need an organization to get like-minded people together to work together, help educate people so they could stand up to this pressure. The next generation of children, the next generation of Americans can have healthy intact bodies the way nature designed us to be.


[0:18:10] Ashley James: You let me know that in the US, over a 100 babies die every year due to complications of circumcision and it was part of a 2010 journal study. That’s unacceptable. That’s just the United States alone, right? Can you imagine worldwide, how many children die from an elective procedure that does not need to happen? Now, let’s talk about the pros and cons so people understand because I’m sure that those that are listening, this is like the first time they’ve ever heard that circumcision is not a great option. What are the pros of having a circumcision? Right and what are the cons? Lay it out for us.


[0:18:59] Anthony Losquadro: Pros, it’s oftentimes a religious or cultural custom that parents feel obligated to get or parents may have anxiety that they feel if they don’t get this done their children may have health issues later on in life. So, this anxiety may compel them to do this or throw reason and logic out the window. So, medically pros there are none. I’ll read you a statement, a policy statement from many many doctors representing over 20 international medical institutions mostly in Europe but all over the world. What they said is, “Circumcision fails to meet the commonly accepted criteria or the justification of preventive medical procedures in children. It has no compelling health benefit, it causes pain and it could have serious long-term consequences and it also conflicts the Hippocratic Oath of “First, do no harm.”

So, these are medical institution representing thousands and thousands of doctors that have said this. So, I want people to understand if they think there are health benefits and they may have read things in the news media or the press or maybe they read something online about it’s going to prevent this or it’s going to prevent that. If they were to get past that, first of all, you can’t believe everything you read in the news because reporters often get it wrong and they tend to uphold the status quo. But if they were to dig down into the studies like we have and looked at this stuff, they would realize that there’s nothing there. People in Europe have stayed intact. They’re intact now, they were intact 100 years ago and they were intact 1000 years ago. They’ve had no health issues related to having intact genitals. So, why is this provoking anxiety in Americans? Because Americans have been sold this bill of goods from American doctors, the American medical system, that goes back over 100 years in America.


[0:21:22] Ashley James: Can you walk us through the history of circumcision?


[0:21:26] Anthony Losquadro: It’s a bizarre history and I’d love to. Circumcision was uncommon in America up until around the 1890s. What happened back then is it was the Victorian age. It was an era of where they tried to have greater attention to morals and morality. America became obsessed with stopping masturbation. They thought masturbation was the root of so many mental and physical ills. That they had to take all resources and all actions necessary to try to restrain this behavior. First, doctors thought that they could circumcise men to get them to stop, but then they quickly realized that was a hard sell. Right? Because an adult knows how good that feels and they’re not cutting parts off their body especially on their genitals.

So then doctors then reasoned well Plan B let’s do it to babies and then we will just have to convince the parents that it’s going to be better for them. We had doctors of the time. Now, you’re going to recognize this name, John Harvey Kellogg. He was the inventor of Kellogg’s cornflakes. He thought masturbation was a serious issue. He was a celebrity doctor of his day. He wrote books. He ran a medical institution. He was one of those figures from back then that convinced parents that circumcision needed to be done.

Then we had another guy who’s by the name of Dr. Lewis Sayre. He was a doctor in New York City. He claimed that circumcision prevented all kinds of things. He claimed it cured epilepsy, mental illness and hernias. He said genital irritations and masturbation are deemed to be the causes of these issues. Lewis Sayre went on to become the president of the American Medical Association. So, this is what we had going against us. This is how it started in America. As time went on and as more and more babies became born in hospitals, actually around 1940 was the break-even point where more babies were born in hospitals as opposed to being born at home.

Doctors took over the birth process. Oftentimes, babies were circumcised without parents even having to be able to consent to it.


[0:24:08] Ashley James: Oh my gosh.


[0:24:09] Anthony Losquadro: Right. I mean back then the father couldn’t even be in the delivery room. So, they took over the birth process. Also, medical insurance became more commonplace. So, doctors could get paid to do it. Going into the late 40s and into the 1950s circumcision rates really started climbing. They probably peaked right around 1970. That’s kind of the history of circumcision in America. There’s some other things. There’s elements of racism and xenophobia. There’s always panic over illness and disease, which some in the medical industry are always happy to exploit. That’s what drove the rates up so high in America. It happened here for the most part. Europe never experienced this maybe with the exception of England.


[0:25:06] Ashley James: I’m confused. How did racism and xenophobia drive circumcision?


[0:25:11] Anthony Losquadro: Well, there was a doctor back in 1894. His name is Dr. Peter Raymond Eno. He said that circumcision of Negroes was a remedy in preventing their predisposition to raping people. When it comes to xenophobia you had the great immigration waves of the 1920s. People from Southern Europe and Eastern Europe, upper-class white Americans were looking to differentiate themselves from the dirty unclean masses coming in. Circumcision became part of that. If you were able to circumcise your child that meant you could afford a hospital birth.


[0:25:55] Ashley James: Oh, they spun it. The media spun it so that it was a status symbol.


[0:26:02] Anthony Losquadro: It became a status symbol. Just like formula-feeding, that became the modern thing to do. If you had the money you could afford formula. You formula-fed your baby as opposed to breastfeeding. That’s for the peasants out in the countryside. We don’t do that.


[0:26:18] Ashley James: Meanwhile, they were damaging their children. They’re damaging their children’s health and they’re damaging their children’s bodies not knowing that it was the so-called peasants that probably their children were healthier as a result of being breastfed and intact. So, what about circumcision around the world? Is America kind of an oddity? Is this the country that has the most circumcision? What about around the world?


[0:26:48] Anthony Losquadro: In the current day with some isolated pockets if you take out people of the Muslim faith and the Judaic faith, you take them out, 99% of the men in the world are intact. So, there are some pockets here and there like for instance in the Philippines, they practice circumcision even though they’re Catholic. South Korea practiced circumcision. They still do, although it’s starting to back off. That was American influence from the Korean War when American medics were providing free health care, they kind of spread it there. Places that were doing it like for instance Australia and the UK had high circumcision rates also up until about World War II. Then as their national health services took over, they decided they’re not paying for this anymore. They cut it out of their insurance and rates plummeted, whim. Again, circumcision rates in England are very very low, Australia very very low.


[0:27:50] Ashley James: I’m from Canada and growing up I knew people who were and who were not. I had discussions actually with my friends’ moms about it because I thought it was kind of interesting. They said that they had the choice. That in the hospital it was not pressured. The pressure wasn’t put upon them but that they could choose. They could elect to have it or not to have it because Canada being a one-payer medical system. So, the government doesn’t want to pay for something it doesn’t have to, luckily. It’s still a common practice there because the United States influences these other countries. Interesting though, in the latest statistics, does the United States have the highest rates of circumcision compared to all other countries?


[0:28:51] Anthony Losquadro: I would say amongst developed countries, you have different countries in Africa that circumcise depending on their tribe and the culture. Again, the Muslim world almost universally circumcise as boys. So, you mention Canada. Also in 2015, the Canadian pediatric society came out. They do not recommend circumcision policy statement.


[0:29:19] Ashley James: Interesting.


[0:29:20] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. They’re distancing themselves even further from their past.


[0:29:23] Ashley James: Well, it’s interesting that the Canadian pediatric society is saying don’t do it and the American pediatric society, or whatever the American version, is saying to do it. It’s always look at the money. Look at the money. That’s very sad that the pediatricians in the United States are going after the money and not after the health of the child.


[0:29:50] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. Even the American Academy of Pediatrics policy statement, it’s vague and it’s conflicting. There are parts of it that seems to say that it recommends it. Then other parts they say, “Well, it’s not a recommendation but we’ll leave it up to the parents.” So, they kind of vaguely word it. So, it’s kind of like reading tea leaves. You can interpret into what you want. They do say that if parents want it, insurance should pay for it.


[0:30:23] Ashley James: Let’s talk about foreskin. What purpose does foreskin have? What does it do for the body? Again, we’ve grown up thinking foreskin is something you could throw into the trash the second you’re born. Like God created us as these amazing beings and His image, but definitely the second you’re born you should cut off this little extra piece that he accidentally left on you if you’re a boy. It’s just kind of crazy to think that God made a mistake when he created us so you should cut off this little part. So, what purpose does foreskin serve?


Photo by bruce mars on Unsplash


[0:31:02] Anthony Losquadro: It serves a lot of purpose. It’s a wonderful anatomical adaptation that males are born with. Incidentally, women also have foreskin in the form of the clitoral hood, but the male foreskin has what we call the four powers. That is pleasure, protection, lubrication and connection. The foreskin offers 20,000 specialized nerve endings known as Meissner’s corpuscles that are fine touch neural sensors. The foreskin protects the end of the penis. It keeps it covered and it keeps the skin moist and supple underneath. It provides its own lubrication. It’s better overall. Guys that are intact say they have a terrific overall experience because of what they’re sensing through their foreskin and with their partner. Nature doesn’t make mistakes. It put this on our body for a reason. The skin slides back and forth. That’s where most of the sensitivity is.

The head of the penis is relatively insensitive. It may come to a shock for some people. I’ll even give – for the guys out there that are listening to this, they can try this. The head of the penis can’t feel hot and cold. A lot of people may not realize. It doesn’t have heat and cold receptors. You could prove this to yourself if you were to go into a guy, not you personally, but if you were to go into a shower with an ice cube. You put warm or hot water on just the head of your penis without getting anything else, not the shaft area, just the head. You put an ice cube on and you go back and forth. You can’t feel any difference. You can feel the pressure, but a guy can’t feel hot and cold.

 Most of the sensation, all the different types of nerve receptors are in the foreskin. There’s a structure in the foreskin. People always ask me, “Well, you’re cut so how do you know?” I know because I can study anatomy and I can study histological studies by researchers like Taylor. They studied the foreskin and they found the structure, Taylor found the structure, in the foreskin called the ridged band. That’s like this wrinkled section of skin that goes around the foreskin. That’s where all those Meissner’s corpuscles reside in.

The studies Taylor did, he found that that rich band and the frenulum band underneath, the frenulum band is that piece of skin. It’s almost like a rubber band. It helps the foreskin go back forward when it’s not in use. Those are the most sensitive parts of the penis. Those are all cut off during circumcision. So the most sensitive part of a guy that’s been circumcised, cut is around the circumcision scar of the penis. That’s what he’s got left. That’s where the nerve endings stop. It’s called neurotmesis. Its death of the nerve endings there. That’s where they can feel.


[0:34:14] Ashley James: So, the argument is that doesn’t having a foreskin mean you have a really dirty penis that is more prone to infection? Doesn’t not having a foreskin make it easier to keep a penis clean?


[0:34:32] Anthony Losquadro: I always like to say a joke when somebody tells me that. I think guys that say that, they have an over-exaggerated sense of how well-endowed they are. They think that their penis is so big it might take an hour to clean it. I mean, seriously, if you take a shower once in a while or a bath or maybe some guys just use baby wipes, I don’t know. It’s not that hard to keep it clean. Once you clean it it stays clean for quite a while. I have other parts on my body, which we don’t have to get into, they get a lot more dirtier a lot quicker. All right.

Anyhow, we expect guys to brush their teeth. So, if they can brush their teeth they can’t wash their foreskin, which takes like two swipes in the shower. It’s not a big deal.


[0:35:28] Ashley James: I know. It’s a funny argument for, “Well, we should remove the skin because clearly you won’t be able to keep it clean.” It’s just so weird.


[0:35:35] Anthony Losquadro: I mean, yeah. Maybe if your life goal was to be homeless or something where you had no access to taking a bath, maybe then you should be circumcised. By then your teeth are probably falling out and who knows what other problems you have. So, I think the hygiene is just a red herring. It’s laundry list persuasion. Laundry list persuasion is when somebody’s trying to convince you of something and they throw so many different things at you that individually they have no merit behind them but they hope that the sum of all of zeroes adds up to something.


[0:36:22] Ashley James: Sounds like a pediatrician trying to make a profit, make a boat payment or something. So you said there’s four powers of the foreskin. One being pleasure. We just talked about that. That by removing foreskin. You’re removing 20,000 nerve endings and most of the sensation of a penis we’re basically removing the ability to fully feel. That’s really really sad. I imagine that’s something very similar to happens to female children when there’s female circumcision. That many of their, if not most of the nerve endings, are removed. Again, both situations I feel are barbaric. So, we’re removing the ability to fully feel and have pleasure, which we know in today’s age it’s 2020. We know that having fully feeling pleasure with our partner is not sinful. It’s beautiful. It helps to create a wonderful intimate loving relationship. It’s part of that. It’s part of a healthy relationship with our partner.

So, that’s pleasure has been severely stunted. Now, protection is the next one. How is protection removed when we remove the foreskin?


[0:37:43] Anthony Losquadro: Well, the foreskin keeps, it’s like the eyelid protects the eye. The foreskin is a cover over the end of the penis that keeps it protected, it keeps the skin underneath moist and supple. There is also some antibacterial properties that the foreskin contains. There are cells called Langerhans cells. They emit a substance that is antibacterial. Again, that’s nature kind of programming this all into the mix there.


[0:38:16] Ashley James: Wow. So, we’re removing part of the immune system that protects the penis?


[0:38:23] Anthony Losquadro: Unfortunately, yeah. Langerhans cells in the foreskin that have an immune function. They’re like sentries. They’re early alert sentries. If an invader, a pathogen comes in and presents itself to that area that it alerts the immune system to respond.


[0:38:40] Ashley James: Oh my gosh. Are there any studies or any data where we’re seeing that men who are intact with their foreskin have less occurrences of UTIs or penile cancer or any kind of infections versus those who have had their foreskin removed?


[0:39:02] Anthony Losquadro: I think when we look at European studies, we don’t see any difference intact men and men that have been cut. When you’ve been circumcised that mucosa tissue becomes keratinized and dried out. So that thick layer, that thick leathery skin that forms it’s more like skin on the rest of your body instead of being sensitive mucosa tissue. That forms a more denser barrier to infections perhaps. The foreskin in it of itself, we don’t see much difference. I don’t think that men that are intact have lower rates of STDs, but I don’t think they have higher rates either.


[0:39:45] Ashley James: Okay. So, that’s not even a point for anyone to bring up because I know that some doctors say that those who are circumcised have slightly less chance of getting HIV. Has that come up for in your research?


[0:40:03] Anthony Losquadro: It comes up all the time because the press has hyped it and the researchers that did the studies have hyped it. Yeah. Those studies, there’s only three of them that were done. There was one done in Rakai, Uganda; Kisumu, Kenya and Orange Farm, South Africa. There’s only three studies. These things have gone on and on since they were done around 2009-2010. They’re highly highly disputed by a number of academics and a number of doctors. You have to understand, these researchers who did this, they got millions and millions and millions of dollars for themselves and the institutions they work for in terms of grants from the Gates Foundation and from US government. Back then, this is before the advent really of antiretroviral drugs that is really bringing HIV under control. Before that they didn’t have that. They gave them all this money to do something. They concocted these studies. If you read their press releases they’ll say they’re gold-standard studies.

When you look into their data and you look into their methodology it’s so flawed that the only reason why they got away with this is most people don’t understand it and I’ll give you an example. In one mistake, take one study so let’s say the study participants were 3000 men. So, you have 1500 that we’re going to be intact and you had 1500 that were going to be circumcised. Well, first of all you have to convince 1500 men to get circumcised, right? Because you have to tell them upfront they’re going to have a benefit. What are you going to them if the study showed no benefit? “Sorry, we took your foreskin off for no reason.” So, you take these circumcised men. Now, the intact man they said okay go back home and live your life and do whatever. Then the circumcised men they couldn’t have sex for the first month, two months, three months maybe even because they’re healing.

Then the study is supposed to go say a year and a half. I don’t have the original time frame of the study but they stopped the study short. They stopped the study like after six months. So, the guy had surgery they were only exposed for a very short period of time. What makes these studies so fraudulent is that all three studies they stopped. They cut them. They stopped the study in half the amount of time it was supposed to be. They claimed it was due to ethical reasons that they had to offer circumcision to the intact group before they caught HIV.


[0:42:48] Ashley James: Oh my gosh. That is so – I can’t believe it.


[0:42:55] Anthony Losquadro: They pre-baked the outcome of the study. Then what they did is they press release, big press releases. “Circumcision we reduced it by 60%. Wow, isn’t that amazing? The millions of dollars you gave us wasn’t that so well spent.” They don’t even tell you the 60% number is actually an absolute reduction from 2% to 1.2%, but they couldn’t say that because that’s not a great press release. So they say, “We reduced it by 50% – 60%. It’s amazing. It’s like a vaccine. We should be doing this. Give us more money. We need to set up clinics to do it now.” Unfortunately, these poor Africans are being pressured into doing this and it still goes on to this day. The US government continues to fund these programs. They actually pay people in the community to go out and be like recruiters to get men to come to the clinics to get circumcised. They’ll set up soccer teams. You can’t participate on the soccer team unless you get circumcised.

Now, they just realize that the botched rate is like becoming off the chart. Many young African babies are being botched for life from this program. So, now they may even be moving away from doing it to the babies. All this stuff’s going on in Africa. There are some groups, intactivists in Africa, that are starting to get organized and fight back against this. If American parents are thinking that’s a reason to circumcise their son they really need to learn more about this.


[0:44:39] Ashley James: Well, just wear a condom. If you’re worried about HIV wear a condom. Only have intimacy with your partner after you’ve both been tested. I mean, just take precautions. Take a few steps but don’t cut off your son’s half of his genital because you think it might prevent him from catching HIV one day. That’s planning for bad parenting right there.


[0:45:08] Anthony Losquadro: It’s sad. If somebody is in a high-risk group then they should take antiretroviral drugs like PrEP. That will give them much much more protection than circumcision ever possibly could.


[0:45:22] Ashley James: Wow. Okay. So, you look into the studies and you see that it’s totally botched studies and just made-up exacerbated numbers so they can make money. It’s all about the money. It’s really really sad.


[0:45:39] Anthony Losquadro: If you’re a professor in an academic institution, your career is based on how many grants you can bring into that institution. Professors and these academics need to constantly be publishing and they constantly need to be trying to get grants. They found a nice juicy target with circumcising Africans.


[0:46:03] Ashley James: This is just sick and sad. All right. So, by removing foreskin we remove pleasure, 20,000 nerve endings, most of the sensation of the penis. We are removing the protection. There is a whole immune system that we are removing. Talk about lubrication. I never knew. So, it’s actually a like a mucosa like you said it’s almost like an eyelid where it’s like a kind of mucosa tissue?


[0:46:34] Anthony Losquadro: It’s a mucosa tissue. It’s naturally moist. The technical name is exudate. There’s a liquid that kind of leaks out from the skin and it provides zone emollients and moisture to both the head of the penis and to the foreskin itself to keep the skin moist and supple.


[0:46:57] Ashley James: And clean. Isn’t that also kind of like a self-cleaning mechanism like females have?


[0:47:05] Anthony Losquadro: Well, it sheds dead skin cells and the individual has to clean it. Just like all parts of your skin, you’re constantly shedding skin cells. If you don’t wash it for a long time, many many days maybe as long as a week, you would produce a substance, again I use you figuratively I don’t mean you personally. I’m from New York and that’s just the way I talk. Everybody’s a you.


[0:47:37] Ashley James: Yeah. A you.


[0:47:40] Anthony Losquadro: It would produce a substance called smegma, which is the thing everybody jokes about. That’s the emollients and the substances after they go rancid if you’ve never washed it for a very long period of time. That could get a little gross, but hey, you don’t brush your teeth you’re going to get gingivitis and your teeth will fall out too. So, it’s just a normal function of the body, which is a very easy thing to clean.


[0:48:07] Ashley James: All right. So, it keeps it moist and lubricated. So, removing that makes the skin, like you said, it becomes scar tissue, becomes hard and dense almost like leather. That’s just wrong. Okay, connection. You talk about connection. Why does removing the foreskin remove connection?


[0:48:29] Anthony Losquadro: Well, this is kind of an intangible part of having this anatomical function, a feature. It’s being connected with your partner, intact body to intact body. All that sensation. You’re both connected that way. It’s the way nature intended us to be. Circumcision interferes with that. Somebody said, “You can’t change form without changing function.” This is the way the penis was designed to function and go together with the vagina. This is the way everything works together. That’s the connection that two people can have.


[0:49:15] Ashley James: I wonder, I mean this would be kind of an interesting study to look at the numbers, but I wonder if men who are circumcised have higher rates of rape or violence or just there’s something missing. There’s something missing from their body and from their experience and maybe they’re unable to get over that frustration of not having what their bodies meant to have. I just wonder if there’s a, I don’t want to say correlation, but just statistically if men who are intact or more at peace with their body than men who aren’t?


[0:49:57] Anthony Losquadro: Well, I’m not a psychologist so just speaking on a speculative basis. I think when you look at sexual abusers or predators, I think one of the things that’s in their background is they were in turn abused in their past and they were repeating that. When you take a baby or you take a young child and you cut off part of their body, you tell them that you don’t respect their body, their integrity, their autonomy. We’re in this “me too” era now. One of the questions that comes up is how do we expect young men or men in general to respect a woman’s body, to respect a woman’s space and a woman’s dignity when they themselves weren’t respected or their own bodies were altered. Their genitals no less. In a sense really, although it’s not an intentional abuse, it’s a form of abuse. It’s happened to them.


[0:51:05] Ashley James: If you were to take that exact same statement though and talk about a female genital mutilation, if you were to say that, we would say 100%, every listener would say, “Yeah. Female genital mutilation is abuse.” It is barbaric and it’s abusive. I don’t care if it’s part of someone’s culture. Things got to change. So, we need to look that yeah, if that same procedure is happening to a boy, to a girl it’s just the same. You’re doing it to a newborn baby. It’s eight-pound baby. We’re cutting, we’re mutilating their genitals. What are we thinking? What are we doing? We need to start questioning the status quo because if we just go through the baby mill of going to a hospital and just doing what everything our doctor wants us to do, they’re doing a lot of for-profit stuff to our newborn babies that are not helping them. Removing part of their genitals is one of them.

So, we need to, as parents, ask questions and stand up for ourselves and demand more from our society, demand a better look at what we’re doing to newborn babies. I just think this is just crazy.


[0:52:40] Anthony Losquadro: It is. It’s insane.


[0:52:42] Ashley James: You talk about botched jobs. This is where it gets kind of sad, really sad. But I was just reading on Facebook. I was just reading actually a friend of a friend was posting about how she’s a great mom and she regrets so heavily. She regrets the day that she circumcised her son. They botched it. He will never have use of his penis. That blew my mind. He’s like five years old. They botched it to the point where he’ll never be able to have sex. I couldn’t believe that that that actually happens right now, in this day and age, here in the United States. So, can you tell us a bit about statistics and the risks that go into having a circumcision?


[0:53:42] Anthony Losquadro: There unfortunately happens more often than people realize. Often times it gets swept under the carpet. The parents that are party, they’ve been also victims of this because what happened to their son. They want to kind of put it onto the carpet. The hospitals, they’ll just pay off some malpractice settlement deal in court just to make it go away, but it happens quite frequently. I can tell you, there was a study done in Utah using the all claims database, which is an insurance database. If you do study off the all claims database that’s considered one of the best sources of data. Researchers there found an 11.5% serious complication rate from circumcision. If you’re a pediatric urologist, the biggest job you have is repairing circumcision complications.


[0:54:42] Ashley James: 11.5% of boys, of baby boys, newborn baby boys have some form of complication. What do these complications look like? I mean, disfigurement. Are they actually slicing off, accidentally slicing off half the penis? What is the complication?


[0:55:04] Anthony Losquadro: Complications run the gamut. It could be excessive hemorrhaging or bleeding during the procedure. It could be removal of too much skin. It could be misapplication of the circumcision clamp that causes gouges or actually amputates some or all of the penis because obviously a baby is so small. If the doctor is off even a millimeter or so with this clamping device which crushes the foreskin. He can crush not only the foreskin but part of the penis.


[0:55:37] Ashley James: So, 20,000 nerve endings are being crushed in a newborn baby?


[0:55:41] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. Yeah. They’re removing the whole foreskin. So, these complications can also be infection. There could be complications that develop later on in life called meatal stenosis. Stenosis is a medical term meaning narrowing of a particular part. What happens is the urethra, which is the part that you urinate through, because of the scar tissue can tend to increase with time. You can have difficulty having urination baby or the male or the older male, mature male can have. They have to go in and kind of roto-rooter that out somehow.

So, not only did the baby have to go through all this pain and trauma to begin with, now he’s got to have to go through corrections and revisions and sutures. He’s not going to have a penis that looked like the one that nature gave them. He’s going to have one that doctors had to do reconstructive surgery on. You’re talking as much as like over 100,000 botchers a year. Botchers complications a varying degree. There’s a case going on in New York right now that I was initially consulted on. One doctor did severe damage to babies’, two different babies, penises using a type of circumcision clamp called a Mogen clamp, which is still widely in use. This has the highest malpractice rate of all the circumcision devices yet hospitals continue to use it. This doctor botched two babies in a row, severe that part of the head of their penis is missing.

There was a baby down in Georgia where they amputated the whole entire penis with that device and they didn’t tell the mother. Get this. The doctor wrapped the baby up and said, “Okay. Take him home.” The mother took the baby home. This was a baby of color so I guess they felt that they could take advantage of this situation, maybe she wouldn’t realize it. The bleeding wouldn’t stop. The mother took the baby to the emergency room and part of the penis was missing. The doctors put it in their refrigerator.


[0:58:09] Ashley James: What?


[0:58:12] Anthony Losquadro: So, this is one of the most egregious cases of current history. This was Stacey Willis. You can google it. This was highly reported. She ended up with a huge insurance judgment, huge court judgment. But money is never going to replace what this child has to go through, what kind of life is he going to have with his genitals missing.


[0:58:40] Ashley James: Yeah. I keep coming back to compare it to a woman. We wouldn’t do this to a woman. Why are we doing this to men? Both men and women should have equal rights when it comes to choosing. They should be able to choose. I’m so happy you’re doing the work you’re doing because these babies, these newborn babies, do not have a voice. The parents are being pressured because the doctors and the hospitals want to make money. That is sick and wrong. I know more and more parents are waking up and learning about this. So, I’m happy you’re doing the work you’re doing to allow people to know.

My husband gave me permission right before this interview. I think it’s a sensitive topic. I told him I’ll tell the story without mentioning him. He said, “No, it’s okay.” Because he said it would kind of be weird if I told the story with saying a friend of mine. He goes, “It’s fine. You could tell them my story.” So, he has had issues his whole life. He’s 51 now. He has had issues his whole life and not known that it was because his foreskin was removed. Then about five or six years ago, I discovered medium.com. I think it was kind of newish or new to me. So, we were looking at medium.com as a place for me to write some health articles. My husband was looking over my shoulder and we’re both looking at the computer screen. He says, “Check this website out. It’s really cool. Medium.com. It’s a place where you can go and publish articles.”

So, I went to it and of course the first thing I click on is the health section. I’m like, “Let’s look to see what the top health article is.” We click on it and the top article was not only about circumcision but about regrowing your foreskin. I thought it was a joke because that just sounds like, “What do you mean regrowing? Why would you even? Why would you want foreskin? Wasn’t it a good thing to have it removed?” So, we click on it and start reading. It was a very detailed article about how men, when you have your foreskin removed, you’ve lost the 20,000 nerve endings. You’ve lost pretty much all the sensation, but you’ve also lost this protection. Always having the organ, the head of the penis, touching things like touching your underwear, just touching stuff all the time is making it less and less sensitive. It’s sort of desensitizing it.

Part of the function of the foreskin is to protect it so it doesn’t become desensitized. Even though you said most of the nerve endings are in the foreskin, but still there’s something that happens when the head is constantly touching things. So, it says that by regrowing your foreskin you can regain some of that. It kind of happened right around the same time that we saw those men who were protesting in San Diego. That helped us look into it further and look into the negatives of having your foreskin removed. He kind of got angry. He said, “I was never asked.” He started to process the emotions about it. It was really interesting to watch him talk about it and process it. He was so upset that he never had a choice and he’s had this lifelong problem with having it removed. It’s affected the quality of his life. Not our relationship because he’s done a lot of emotional work, but in his past, his past marriage, it caused a lot of stress. He ended up internalizing it and he ended up feeling shame and guilt. He ended up feeling less than and insufficient as a person.

So, having your foreskin removed can severely affect, because I’ve seen it happen in him, can severely affect your identity and who you are as a person. I thought that was really interesting. So, he did a lot of therapeutic work around it. He’s really wonderful. His process has been wonderful. He ended up going through with this device that you can actually regrow or try to grow some more foreskin basically. So he’s got partially the way there and it significantly changed having regrown some. He’ll never have those nerve endings like you said but he actually did, he did grow some with this device that you wear that kind of stretches the skin and protects the penis. He noticed a really big difference in the sensation and in his problem. His problem started to become a less of a problem. The function, the functionality of it. So, I thought that was really interesting. Have you looked at the movement to regrow foreskin?



Photo by ABRAHAM POPOCATL on Unsplash


[1:04:20] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. I mean, that’s admirable that your husband was first of all able to acknowledge that there was an issue and then respond to it in a positive manner. There are many men that are doing foreskin restorations. It’s the term that it’s called. There are a number of devices available online that can assist guys who want to do this. Foreskin restoration is the means of or the process of placing gentle tension on the skin of the penis to make the skin grow back again. One of the amazing things about skin is if you put tension on it like as if a lady is pregnant, she’s going to get more skin around her belly to accommodate that growing baby inside.

So, the same thing happens. Doctors or surgeons will call that skin expansion. When they have to do reconstructive surgery they will also do that. So, it’s a proven process as crazy as it sounds. It is a proven process. Men can regrow their foreskin. It does take time, it does take patience and it does take perseverance, but it can be done. Guys have done it. There’s also stages of restoration. For some guys just doing a little bit so they can get a little more slack sliding skin when they have an erection instead of for a man that had a circumcision and too much skin was removed so when he has in erections it’s like an overt taut, overblown balloon. It’s very uncomfortable. By regrowing some of the skin you can regain some of that, remove some of the tension on the skin during erection and it can have more comfortable sex.

So, for some guys that’s enough. Then some guys want to continue all the way because they want the head of the penis covered all the time. They want more sliding skin. I think psychologically, they want to kind of take back what was taken from them. So, even though they don’t have all the nerve endings at least – some guys that do this successfully, doctors can’t even tell that they were circumcised before. That’s how authentic-looking it is. They grow the skin too back. It hugs the head of the penis just like an intact guy and it would fool anybody. But that’s a longer process to do that. So, there’s a range, a whole host of devices and extent that somebody wants to purchase. People or guys may pursue foreskin restoration, but it is done. I think, from what I read online, more and more guys are getting into it. It’s fortunate that these things were developed because there are millions and millions of cut men out there that are having issues. This is something that can help them.


[1:07:18] Ashley James: Right. Well, I mean it doesn’t give them back the tens of thousands of nerves. It doesn’t give them back the mucosa protection. It doesn’t give them back everything, but it does give them back something. My husband has grown about 25% of it back. He had a huge, I mean it just really made a big difference for him. He just wore this device on and off for the last few years. I was really happy to see that it made such a difference for him but not only for him in performing in the bedroom. It wasn’t even about that, although that increased for him. It was actually I noticed something in him all the time. That something about having it feeling intact, feeling more intact like you said it was about reclaiming what was taken.

So, it really, it affected him outside of the bedroom. It gave him a sense of completion. I mean you’d have to talk to him but it was just absolutely there is a shift that happened for him when he started to do foreskin restoration. This shouldn’t have to be. Foreskin restoration shouldn’t even have to exist because we shouldn’t be taking it away from men in the first place or women. Circumcision is harmful and barbaric. It is killing babies both female and male causing things like excessive bleeding, lifetime disfigurement. I mean that is just sick and wrong. The fact that over 100,000 babies in the United States have these complications. That’s incredible. It’s being swept under the rug because it’s all about the profits.

So, we have to look where the money is look, look where the money’s going and look at the actual information and make up our minds. Anthony, tell us about your organization. Tell us what is it you guys do besides getting on podcasts and sharing this information, what does the organization do?


[1:09:33] Anthony Losquadro: What we do is educational advocacy. We need to get all of this information that we found and that we’ve become excited about learning and try to impart that information and that knowledge and that excitement into other people. So, what interaction, one of the biggest things we do is we do public events where we have a mobile unit and we have exhibits. We have an exhibit on the bizarre history of American circumcision that we discussed and we touched on and how it got started in America with Kellogg and Sayre and all these people. We have these public exhibits out like that. We have in a 3D diorama that’s interactive that people can see what doctors actually do to babies in a hospital when they circumcise them and they put the baby in this contraption that the babies spread-eagle in. It’s really like baby waterboarding. They have the baby’s arms and legs tied down spread-eagle. Then we show them the clamps that are used. All the various equipment identical as if it was happening in a hospital procedure room. So, we have exhibits like that.

We have all kinds of literature that we give out. Some literature for parents of intact children that they can give to their son. It’s age-appropriate. We do it actually as like a comic strip. It helps give young men that are intact confidence about their own natural body. That they have all these natural advantages and features that guys that are cut don’t have and that their parents were really – they should be thankful to their parents for keeping them intact. So, we have this type of literature that we give out.

The biggest thing we do is we talk to people face-to-face. We just don’t sit behind computers and social media. We like to get out into the public and talk to people face-to-face, listen to their questions. I consider it like a big ongoing focus group. We hear about all these different stories. We hear from people from all walks of life, all different types of religions and faiths and cultures and what they do in their home country or what happened to them in America. We hear all these different stories. We have a great interactions with the public. Most of the time it’s very rewarding in what people come and tell us. People could thank us for being out there or glad somebody’s doing this. They support us. They give us donations. They help fund.

We run a vehicle so we have to pay gas and insurance and all those kind of things. We have to print our materials. We’re all volunteers. I’m a volunteer. I’m an unpaid volunteer. Even though I’m the founder and director this isn’t a business for me. This is a passion. Passion that I want to help the next generation of people. All of the directors on our board, same situation. They want to protect the next generation of children so what happened to them doesn’t happen to someone else. So we get all this. We know that we’re saving thousands of kids and they’ll never know who we are and we’ll never know who they are. It’s happening. Circumcision rates are dropping and we’re just out there spreading the word.


[1:13:09] Ashley James: The next time you see the, what did you call those men that protest that travel around the world or travel around the United States protesting?


[1:13:16] Anthony Losquadro: They are the blood-stained men. They’re a great group.


[1:13:19] Ashley James: The next time you see the blood-stained men, tell them that back in 2014, it was either early 2015 or late 2014, in San Diego. I could still see him in my mind holding that sign. So, just thank them for me. It sparked this conversation. That’s actually another reason why my husband wanted to do foreskin restoration. When we decided to not circumcise our son, which was a very easy choice to make to not circumcise once we spent only a short time looking at this information. It just made so much sense to let a baby keep all the body parts it was born with. One of the reasons why he wanted to do foreskin restoration was so that by the time our son was old enough to ask questions, he wouldn’t say, “Why do I look different from you? Why do we look so different? So, I thought that was interesting.”

My husband asked his mom, our son’s grandmother, “Why did you get me circumcised?” She said, “It was so that you would look the same as your father.” I thought that was really interesting. I mean back then, like you said, they took the babies away. There was not really a choice back then, but now we do. Now we can advocate and we do have a choice now. So, for those who choose to not circumcise their children and if the husbands are worried that they look so much different because they’re cut and they’re circumcised and their son isn’t, the foreskin restoration might be an avenue for them so that they end up both looking the same. If that was a cause for concern. So, it’s going in on the other direction.

I’d like you to thank those men for me for sparking this whole path for our family. I can’t imagine the amount of guilt that I’d feel as a mother if I had circumcised. I can’t imagine the guilt that parents feel who circumcised and then discovered all this information afterward. It’s so hard as a parent. I mean I’m constantly struggling with the guilt of you try to do something like oh they act up and you put them in a timeout or you yell or something and then you’re like, “Did I do that right? Am I a good parent?” We’re constantly questioning whether we’re doing things right or not. I just want to say to all the parents that did circumcise, you are doing the best you can with all the resources you have. You did the best. You could with all the resources you had at the time. This isn’t about guilt and this isn’t about shaming you are guilting you. Hopefully though, you can take this information and move forward with it. Your future children or your grandchildren or your nieces and nephews and cousins and hopefully you can help spread this information and help protect future babies.

Anthony, how did you deal with the guilt after you learned about it? Did you not circumcise? Did you know all this information before you had your children?


[1:16:38] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. Absolutely. My son is intact. I had the fortunate opportunity of having this information ahead of time and knowing about people that great intactivists like a lady by the name of Marilyn Milos from California, who is an early early pioneering advocate on this issue. So, what we find is that just people, parents whether it’s myself, anybody, they just need a little bit of information, just a shred just to get them thinking about it. Once you do that, they realize, “Why would I cut off part of my son’s body? It’s the most insane thing.” That’s all they need. Just like you saw the blood-stained man in San Diego. You just needed that a little bit of a push to say, “Hey, what’s going on here?” Then you realize, “Hey, there’s no reason to be doing this.” That’s all we need to do. If any of your listeners, anybody out there, if you’re having a baby, you know someone’s having a baby or a friend, family member just say, “Hey, you should look into the circumcision issue.” That way when they’re in that delivery room or wherever they’re having their baby, they’ll have the information, they’ll have the knowledge and they’ll be able to resist the pressure if it’s from doctors or they’ll just know more. If you know more you can do better.


[1:17:56] Ashley James: If you know more you can do better. Now, when our son was a newborn I realized quickly that I had no idea how to keep his penis clean being a woman, first of all, but my husband didn’t know how to keep it clean because he didn’t have a foreskin. So, the two of us were like worried like how do you keep this thing clean? Instead of me telling the listeners, is there any advice you’d like to give or let people know how can you help a baby, who is intact, who has not been circumcised, how do you keep a baby boy clean? Because we have to obviously change diapers like 12 times a day. So, how do you keep it clean? How do you make sure – you don’t pull the skin back. You don’t like wash it. How do you keep it clean?


[1:18:51] Anthony Losquadro: This is a really important thing. I’m glad you brought it up because we almost missed it. You don’t do anything. That’s the most important thing to remember. You just wipe the outside with a baby wipe or whatever you’re using. Do not by any means pull back the foreskin. Do not allow any caregivers or doctors or nurses to pull it back because on a young infant or a young child, if that is pulled back it will tear the skin underneath. There is a sealed membrane under there. Nature sealed it up so nothing can get in there. If somebody pulls it back it’s going to tear, it’s going to bleed and it’s going to be causation of scar tissue potentially and then later on in life that guy may get a condition known as phimosis, which is a foreskin that doesn’t retract because the scar tissue is not stretchy, it’s not flexible.

So, the thing to do with the baby is nothing. You don’t pull it back. You just leave it alone. You clean the outside. That’s all that it needs.


[1:20:04] Ashley James: I remember finding an article. I remember lying in bed, exhausted. Having given birth and just thinking, “How am I going to clean this? What do I do? How do I change a diaper?” I found this great article explaining exactly step-by-step what to do, what not to do. It said, treat it like it’s a finger. Clean it like it’s a finger. Obviously, you’re not going to pull the cuticle back and pull your skin off your finger to clean it. You don’t want to harm the cuticle of the finger. You just wash it or just clean it. That’s it. Then leave it alone.

So, I remember having to tell, like at one point we had a babysitter. I had to tell her because she didn’t know that either. So, yeah. Not only do you need to know this but you have to actually tell everyone that’s going to change your son’s diaper to not pull it back because I think the instinct is well we’re supposed to clean this part but you actually would be incredibly damaging the organ as if you were peeling the skin off of a finger. It would be very very damaging. So, it’s actually easier to take care of then than a circumcised baby. It’s easier to take care of. You just wipe it and that’s it, just leave it alone. There’s no chance of a botched or anything like from circumcision. So, it’s actually less maintenance. There’s no concern.

I remember when our son was maybe six months old he said it hurt. Oh no, he was a little bit older because he was able to talk. Let’s see. Maybe he was a year old. He expressed that it hurt to pee and I looked at his penis and it was red. So, we got him in a warm salt bath because I talked with a midwife about it who also had a son who was not cut. She said, “Yeah. That can happen sometimes. There can be a little bit of a irritation or maybe a little bit of a beginning of an infection.” So, I got him in a warm saltwater bath once and that’s all he needed and then it went away. I’ve heard that it could happen. Have you heard of this? When a young boy, if it gets irritated or infected, have you heard about doing a salt bath?


[1:22:37] Anthony Losquadro: You could treat it that way. It could be two things. It could be bacterial or it could be yeast or it could just be irritation. So, if it’s a yeast type infection just some antifungal cream would clear it up. If it is a true UTI, then an antibiotic would be given by a pediatrician. It could be that. It’s uncommon, but it can happen. It can happen with cut boys too. It’s just one of the things who stay on wet diapers and they’re constantly going. So, we try to stay on top of it and keep them clean, but sometimes the yeast, the bacteria wins.


[1:23:20] Ashley James: Right. Right. So, just like you said it could happen with a cut boy just like with a not cut boy. I guess there’s fear there for parents who have never been around an uncircumcised penis. That they’re doing it wrong or that there’s a more of a chance that it could become infected. So, you’re saying just keep it clean. You don’t need to pull the foreskin back and you’re good. Those are the two things to know.


[1:23:44] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. You absolutely don’t want to pull it back. That’s called forced retraction. The only one who should be pulling it back would be the boy when he matures and becomes a certain age where he’s going to naturally notice that, “Hey look, it goes back.” That may happen at five years old. It may happen at eight years old. It may happen during puberty. Everybody’s different, but it will naturally start to retract on its own.


[1:24:07] Ashley James: It’s his right and it’s his body to choose when he does that. That’s between him and himself. No one else.


[1:24:17] Anthony Losquadro: Yeah. Yeah. One day he’ll just notice, “Hey. It goes back.” Then he’ll just normally wash it when he bathes. He can pull it back himself and wash it and then everything will be fine. But before that it’s like a sealed up unit. There’s a membrane in there that’s all sealed. Keeps all the dirt and everything out of there.


[1:24:35] Ashley James: That’s cool. So, we don’t have to worry about it as parents because by the time it comes back, he’s old enough to do it himself. We got to tell him like, “Hey, once it comes back you got to clean it.”


[1:24:47] Anthony Losquadro: Right.


[1:24:48] Ashley James: Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else that we haven’t touched on that you really love to make sure you cover?


[1:24:55] Anthony Losquadro: No. I think we had a good discussion here.


[1:25:06] Ashley James: We got it all? Okay. Awesome.


[1:25:17] Anthony Losquadro: I’m going to say your last name again. I’m going to write this down this time. I’ll edit this part out. Is it Losquadro?


[1:25:18] Ashley James: Losquadro. Okay. Anthony Losquadro, it has been such a pleasure having you on the show today. I feel like we covered a really important topic. The fact that you’re spreading this information, educating parents is wonderful. I really encourage listeners to donate if they can, to spread your information, to go to your website intaction.org. That’s intaction.org. Check out everything that Anthony’s doing. Can they follow you? Are you big on social media? How do people stay connected or learn more?


[1:25:59] Anthony Losquadro: We’re on Facebook, we’re on Twitter and we have a pretty good YouTube channel and that’s growing. We’re getting more and more into YouTube videos. So, become a subscriber to our YouTube channel. Come to our website. Join up as a member, get on our mailing list. We don’t spam you. We won’t spam you. We don’t send a lot of emails out, but you keep up to date what’s going on with us, what’s going on with the issues. We have good resources available there.


[1:26:30] Ashley James: Awesome. Thank you so much, Anthony, for coming on the show today and spreading this information. Hopefully we’ve touched some lives and there’ll be babies born with their skin intact and they’ll keep it intact and they will never know that maybe this conversation is what helped spark that. But it’ll be wonderful to know that there’s a ripple going out right now. A ripple that is going to affect thousands and thousands of future boys to be able to live a full life with all their body parts.


[1:27:02] Anthony Losquadro: Ashley, it’s a great feeling. As we like to say, “It’s foreskin for the win.”


[1:27:07] Ashley James: “Foreskin for the win.”


[1:27:10] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? How we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition, but from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to learntruehealth.com/coach and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

We need more health coaches. In fact, health coaching is the largest growing career right now in the health field. So many health coaches are getting in and helping people because you can work in chiropractic offices, doctors’ offices, you can work in hospitals. You can work online through Skype and help people around the world. You can become an author. You can go into the school system and help your local schools shift their programs to help children be healthier. You can go into senior centers and help them to shift their diet and lifestyle to best support them in their success and their health goals. There are so many different available options for you when you become a certified health coach.

So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

Are you looking to get the best supplements at the lowest price? For high-quality supplements and to talk to someone about what supplements are best for you, go to takeyoursupplements.com and one of our fantastic true health coaches will help you pick out the right supplements for you that are the highest quality and the best price. That’s takeyoursupplements.comTakeyoursupplements.com. That’s takeyoursupplements.com. Be sure to ask about free shipping and our awesome referral program.


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Kerri Hummingbird And Ashley James


  • How to heal your relationship with yourself
  • How to let go of the mind chatter and negative self-talk
  • How to shift the mindset
  • What the listening piece is
  • How important support is 
  • How to practice self-mastery, emotional mastery and spiritual mastery
  • What the Skills Not Pills movement is


In this episode, Kerri Hummingbird shares with us how she healed her relationship with herself, how switching from judgment to curiosity opened up new possibilities in her life. She also shares with us that staying away from the negative environment and surrounding yourself with positive people that believes your story helps in healing yourself.


[0:00] Intro: Hello true health seeker and welcome to another episode of Learn True Health podcast. You’re going to love today’s interview. It’s so beautiful. We get into some beautiful healing of the heart and the mind and the spirit. It’s very motivational, uplifting and deep. I just think it’s so so beautiful. I’m really excited to bring you this interview today. 

I really have some exciting news for those who love the magnesium soak. If you have never heard of this and you’re like, “What magnesium soak? What are you talking about?” Go back and listen to my interviews with Kristen Bowen. You can search them easily by going to LearnTrueHealth.com and searching magnesium or searching magnesium soak or searching Kristen Bowen. I have a little search bar at the top of my website and you can find all my podcasts easily that way. Since this is episode 407, there’s 406 other episodes that you can search through and find.

My interviews with Kristen Bowen are totally mind-blowing. Just to give you a little snapshot, she was I think it was 87 pounds or 97 pounds in a wheelchair having 30 seizures a day, unable to really talk her advocate for herself. That was her lowest point. I’m not going to spoil it if you haven’t heard her story. It’s really rad. You have to listen to it. It’s pretty crazy. I love how she shares it. So go back and listen to our first interview. 

One of her biggest tools was soaking in undiluted magnesium from the Zechstein Sea. Now, we absorb 20 grams of magnesium through our skin when it is delivered this way. You can put it in a foot basin or put it in your bathtub and people notice such great results. In fact, there’s over 2,000 listeners who have purchased the jugs and have used them over the last year. I’ve shared, there’s hundreds of testimonials in the Learn True Health Facebook group about the magnesium soak. It’s really amazing. 

Magnesium is the most important mineral in our body, 1800 processes, enzymatic processes, require magnesium. It’s the first mineral we become deficient in. So, things begin to break weird symptoms headaches, fatigue, hormone disruption, inability to fully metabolize toxins. The list goes on and on. Sleep disruption and muscle aches and pains and also restless legs, twitching of your eyelid, twitching of your muscles. These are all symptoms of magnesium deficiency, but there are over 200 symptoms of magnesium deficiency. So, I’m not going to list all of them but you can definitely listen to my interviews with Kristen Bowen to learn more.

Now, she offers the Learn True Health listeners 10% off of her magnesium soak, which is really generous of her to always give us a bit of a discount. Once in a while, she throws a big special, which is what she’s doing right now. From today until January 30th, Kristen Bowen is giving us a jar of her muscle cream, her magnesium muscle cream, which is highly concentrated magnesium in the cream. It is all-natural ingredients, it’s very safe, it’s a non-toxic and it is my favorite cream. I’ve used all kinds of natural pain creams. This one’s my favorite. You rub it on your neck if you ever have tension and the tension melts away. If you ever get a headache it is so soothing. It really really really works. She’s giving it. It’s a $36 jar and she’s giving it for free as a gift when you buy a jug of the magnesium soak.

You go to LearnTrueHealth.com/freecream, that’s LearnTrueHealth.com/freecream from now until January 30th. Then once you hit “Add to Cart,” make sure that you use coupon code LTH, that’s really important because that makes sure that you get this special and the discount of 10% off. So go to that special link. That’s only going to work from now until January 30th. If you’re a listener who’s listening to this after January 30th, stay tuned because Kristen does specials a few times a year for us. You can get on my email list by going to LearnTrueHealth.com. When there’s a big pop up put your email in. I promise not to spam you I send out a few emails a month usually telling listeners about really awesome specials like the ones that Kristen provides for us. 

You could also join the Learn True Health Facebook group because anytime Kristen gives us a special, I announce it in the Facebook group as well. So that’s a great place to go to stay on top of these great deals. There’s other health companies that let me know about specials. So I always let you guys know because I love these products. 

So, if you’ve been a listener for a while you’ve heard of the products that I use and that have helped me get to the next level in my health. I want to make sure that you guys save as much money as possible. So, anytime I love these products I usually reach out to the company and see if I can get a discount. Usually, they do the coupon code as LTH as in Learn True Health.

Speaking of the coupon code LTH, if you’ve been a listener for a while you’ve heard but if you’re new listener welcome to the show. It’s great to have you here. You should totally join our community by going to LearnTrueHealth.com/group or search Learn True Health on Facebook. It’d be great to have you join our community. I believe we’re up to 3600 members now. It’s a very active and supportive Facebook group that loves to talk about holistic medicine. We’d love to have you there if you’re not already there.

The coupon code LTH can be used to save a huge huge percentage when you join the new Learn True Health membership. This is something I’ve been working on for the last four months. Something that I’ve been thinking about for years actually and kind of planning it. Then I finally stepped into action and we’ve spent the last four months filming these wonderful videos. Every week, I release new lessons. Going to keep growing and growing. The Learn True Health Home Kitchen membership, I designed it with the intention to show you how to cook healthier food and how to increase the amount of nutrition you get from your food. So, if you want to save time and save money and save your health and eat food that’s healing and delicious and nutrient-packed then join the Learn True Health Home Kitchen. 

You don’t have to give up your meat, if you want to stay paleo, if you want to stay whatever you’re doing, my goal is to teach you how to eat more whole foods and more plants. Now, if you want to go 100% whole food plant-based and eat this very nutrient-dense cleansing diet, I give you the tools for how to do that. If you just want to add more wonderful fruits and vegetables, nuts, seeds and whole grains and legumes into your life, you’re going to learn how to do that as well. We are dairy-free, gluten-free and we do teach how to avoid allergens. 

We also teach how to make healthy food for kids because I have a small child and Naomi, who’s my friend who we’ve been filming all these wonderful videos with, she has three boys. We also have husbands and so we have many palates that we have to figure out how to provide delicious but healthy foods for. We do that and they’re whole foods so there’s no processed food, there’s no chemicals. You know what? It’s pretty amazing that even the pickiest of children are loving these recipes. So, we teach you how to feed the masses, feed your children, feed your families and feed yourself healthy whole foods and also learn how to cook more efficiently so you’re saving time, you’re saving money.

I can’t believe how much money I’ve saved actually since I started cooking all my meals at home and then packing and taking meals out with me instead of buying food when I’m out. I’m saving a ton of money but I’m also saving a lot of time because I figured out how to cook in a way that saves time because I’m busy like you. Wouldn’t we like to all eat three really healthy meals a day that are delicious that didn’t take us a lot of time to cook? Then notice that the health results come that you have more energy, that you have more mental clarity that you jump out of bed, that you notice aches and pains have gone. Naomi’s mom shares a great story in one of our videos. Her arthritis is gone after eating this way for, I believe she started – it was like she ate this way for six or seven weeks and then was like, “Wow. My arthritis is totally gone. All my pains are gone. My aches and pains are gone.” That’s the kind of wonderful thing that happens when people add more plants to their life. It’s detoxifying, its nutrifiying, it’s anti-inflammatory. So there’s wonderful things you can learn.

Please go to LearnTrueHealth.com/homekitchen. Use coupon code LTH to get the big listener discount. You could just go to LearnTrueHealth.com and right there at the top of the menu it says “Home Kitchen” and click there. Awesome. If you have any questions at all please feel free to reach out to me. You can reach out to me in Facebook in the Facebook group Learn True Health Facebook group or you can email me [email protected]. I’d love to hear from you. Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you so much for sharing these episodes with your friends. I know you’re going to share today’s interview because it really touched my heart and I know it’ll touch yours as well. Enjoy today’s interview.


Welcome to the Learn True Health podcast. I’m your host, Ashley James. This is episode 407.

Photo by Raychan on Unsplash


[0:09:47] Ashley James: I am so excited for today’s guest. We have Kerri Hummingbird on the show. Her website’s KeriHummingbird.com. That’s easy to remember. Kerri with an I. Of course, links to everything that Kerri does is going to be in the show notes of today’s podcast at LearnTrueHealth.com. Kerri, I know my listeners are going to love today’s interview. This is going to be one of those really positive, uplifting, inspiring interviews. We’ve had some pretty heavy ones lately so this is going to be a really nice break to help us, to motivate us and release the guilt and the shame and all the negative emotions. Just let it go. You have so many beautiful things to teach us today. I’m just so excited to get started. Welcome to the show. 


[0:10:33] Kerri Hummingbird: Thank you so much, Ashley, for having me on. I’m really looking forward to providing as much as I can in service to your listeners.


[0:10:40] Ashley James: Absolutely. Before we get started, because we talked a little bit before we hit record, you’re going to teach us so many beautiful things about opening to being present to the flow where your brilliance is, where connection is made and letting go of that mind chatter the negative self-talk. Also discussing the idea of your identity around your diagnosis. We really do take on this idea that we are broken. Letting that go and reinventing what our identity is to see that we are whole, complete and perfect. There’s so many studies showing that your mindset is directly related to your ability to heal or your ability to hold on to illness. So, I love that you’re going to help us to shift our mindset into a healing and really just beautiful peaceful joyful place.

Before we get started though, learning about that, I’m really curious what happened in your life that led you to become an expert in this area teaching us how to transcend the human drama?


[0:11:56] Kerri Hummingbird: Absolutely. Well, I actually find it ironic because I guide people now in their journeys through their psychology, through their consciousness. I do it in an alternative way. I do it in a spiritual way, but that’s not how I started the journey. I actually began the journey through exploring my own psychology, sitting on the couch in weekly psychotherapy sessions. I did that for decades trying to fix myself from this idea that I was broken, that there was something wrong with me that was making me unacceptable to the people that were closest to me, that was making me need to work on myself to be better around them. While some of that was true, there was definitely some self-mastery to learn around how to handle emotional energy, for example. 

There was also just a lot of misunderstanding that I experienced in the psychology field around different personal types, different types of people and how they process life experience and maybe even the tools and practices that would support people in better processing their life experience so that they don’t have the sort of behavior that would then get characterized or diagnosed in the various ways that are out there. So, at the beginning of the 20 years, was when I was 15, I had been acting out as I don’t know most teenagers do. In this case, my mom got really scared because I did well what many teenagers today are doing is that I was doing some self-harm. The self-harm that I was doing was dating a lot of boys and I’m really not respecting or honoring myself. That was leading me to feel pretty bad about myself. I’m sure you’ve got some listeners who understand that process. Budding sexuality and this culture and trying to figure out who you are. 

My experience was also triggered by my early childhood. So, I think you probably talk about in this show a lot as well. Early childhood experience and how that affects your mental paradigm and your mental conditioning and the kinds of things that come up and surface in your life. I believe now they come up for healing. So, I had an early experience at 15 of that where I felt so low about myself when my dad walked in and caught me at home with a boy that I was being sexual with. I had such an incredible shame about that not only just in the moment but it triggered a lot of other things from my history. I ended up feeling so bad about myself and my dad not wanting to talk to me and wanting me to kind of stay in my room while he processed what happened. That I ended up taking a whole bottle of Tylenol-Codeine.

I ended up going to the hospital, had my stomach pumped. The result of that was my first entry into the psychology field where I had a really excellent psychiatrist actually, which back in the day psychiatrists spoke to you and tried to help you understand yourself. It wasn’t about medicine and medication. He was the first person who started to help me to understand my psychology and the emotional energy that I was processing and what I was doing with it that wasn’t in service of myself. 

So there was a long journey of that. As helpful as it was to see this man, it also planted a seed that there was something wrong with me because he gave me a diagnosis. He said, “We’re going to call you manic-depressive. I would call you bipolar but I don’t want to put that on your record.” Now, I’m almost like, “Uh oh.” Like you’re really broken inside. It gave me that idea. It triggered a lot of fear in my mom. So that began a set of stories about me. That there was something really really wrong with me. My mom could instantly see that there were things from my early childhood that were very traumatic that could be responsible for making me broken.

So, it started this whole path. While I am very gifted by everything I’ve learned on that journey thoroughly deeply exploring thought tunnels and self-shame and guilt and all of those things, at the end of the day, what I clearly see now is that labeling people with a diagnosis gives them some temporary sense that they understand what’s happening to them but it also can trap them like a spider traps a fly in a web. It can be very damaging to a person’s psychology to have those kinds of things happen. So, the long story short is after decades of psychotherapy, it wasn’t getting better. Because what am I doing? I’m going into the office and I’m telling my story. I’m just telling the latest version of how I’m broken because the universe keeps sending me more of that, right? 


[0:17:30] Ashley James: Because that’s your filter. That’s your belief system about yourself.


[0:17:34] Kerri Hummingbird: That’s my belief system and it’s being reinforced at home with my mom who has a lot of fear and guilt over the early childhood trauma. So, it’s just a story that gets perpetuated. Then I self-perpetuate. Then I chose a partner who shared a lot of the same, I don’t know, personality traits as my mother. So, I just brought more of the same to me for 20 years in that relationship and with these weekly psychotherapy sessions basically saying I’m responsible for all the problems in the family. It’s all me. It’s me. I’m causing all the problems. That is not sustainable for a person. No person can carry the weight of that their entire life and feel good about themselves. Those two you don’t go together. 

So, the culmination of that story is that at the very end of all of that paradigm, the diagnosis was I was borderline personality disorder. I can tell you when I looked it up on Wikipedia back in circa 2009 or something, it wasn’t a very friendly description. It’s sort of like you’re like Glenn Close in that movie. Boiling a rabbit in her boyfriend’s home. It was not very kind and it wasn’t true either, but I couldn’t see it then. I didn’t have the self-awareness or the belief in myself because the story was so strong that I was broken and I was the problem in my family that I didn’t see it.

So, it really took me deciding, ironically enough, to be bad to say, “Well, then I guess I’m just bad if after all this time I’m still broken and you can’t fix me and this is the only method you have to fix me. Then I guess I’m just going to be bad.” I left my marriage and I walked out. That first night in my new house I felt instantly better. It was like relief. I’m not going to try that anymore. I’m just done with that.

So, really really quickly what happened, this is the turning point that I really hope the listeners hear. What happened was I stopped believing the authorities about me. I started opening to something bigger that was inside of me. I switched from judgment to curiosity. When I got into curiosity, like I wonder my life might be like without all this judgment? I ended up getting some spiritual teachers that help me guide along that path. I started finding out about all kinds of alternative healing, which I also know you explore in this show which is so exciting. Alternative healing, spiritual healing, energy healing. These were things that I had no concept of before and yet that was exactly the pathway that I got to feeling love within myself, which has been about an eight-year journey now. From the end of my marriage and the rock bottom and I guess I’ll just you know go off in a corner and die to hear where I’m on your show and I’m serving as an inspiration to people.


[0:20:44] Ashley James: I love it. So, when did you first move into your house? Your new house after leaving your husband and walking away – the stories that it’s like you’re walking out of this Jell-O that you’re living in where everything was reinforcing this old belief about you and you walk out of it. Now you’re in your new life switching from judgment to curiosity. When was that? How many years ago was that? 


[0:21:15] Kerri Hummingbird: That was 2011 in the summer.


[0:21:20] Ashley James: Since then you have been on this journey of curiosity. I love that you said from judgment to curiosity because it’s in the question. It’s staying in the questions that allow us to stay open and gather more information and go deeper. It’s when we stop asking the questions that we really shut ourselves off from possibility. So, you were like, “What would happen if…” Can you give me some examples of some of the first thoughts that you had that allowed you to dive into curiosity? Some of the first questions.


[0:21:54] Kerri Hummingbird: Well, I think I’ll just go to a metaphor of dieting because I’m sure that a lot of listeners can relate to the idea of dieting. So, in my experience of dieting, if you restrict yourself and you continue to restrict yourself in a punitive way, what ends up happening is sooner or later you bust open the cookie bag and you eat them. You just can’t do it anymore. You just can’t force yourself anymore to punish yourself into compliance with some goal that you have. 

So, in the same way, just expand that metaphor into all aspects of your life and that’s what I was experiencing. I had so restricted myself through punishment in this belief that I was broken and I was the problem. I was walking on so many eggshells inside of myself that I was apologizing for my existence at every turn. That led to a place where I just felt so bad about myself that any little bit of attention I got from anybody I would just go for it. 

So, at the end of my marriage I was cheating on my husband because men were looking at me and they were attracted and it felt good and it was the only thing that felt good and so I went for it because I’m starving. I’m starving for love. I’m just absolutely starving for love and I need to fill my cup. So, when I decided to be bad, I filled my cup for a while. I had a lot of men on text and getting really full on the attention and like, “Okay. Yeah. This feels really good.” But it wasn’t very long. It was about six months until I got connected with yoga and I went to my first yoga class. My yoga teacher was really cool, of course because I needed it to be cool. He had hair down to his hips. He played Led Zeppelin for vinyasa. I was like, “Now, this is my style. I can do this.” Pretty soon, I got curious about him. I thought, “Huh. He’s his website says he’s a spiritual counselor. Well, I wonder if that’s different than psychology because I’m not going back to a psychotherapist.” So, not to blame psychotherapists because I know the field has changed a lot but the ones that I had been seeing were keeping me and my story, they weren’t breaking me out of it and I knew I needed something but I knew I didn’t need that.

So, he met with me and we had a session together. I said, “Can you help me?” And he said, “Yeah. I think I can.” So, the first session we had together I went in like I had gone into every other psychotherapy session in my life. I went in and I started complaining about the person that wasn’t giving me what I needed and then I felt bad about myself and it was all their fault. I went into that story and he stopped me. He interrupted the pattern and he said, “That’s you.” I, “What?” I felt so insulted at first, but I knew it was true. It was like he was speaking truth and it hurt but it went right to my heart and it made me wake up. I said, “Oh my God. How do I stop doing that?” That’s where the journey really began. The question, “How do I stop doing that? Because I don’t want to do that anymore. What is that? Why am I doing that? Where does that come from?” All these questions started in my consciousness. Pretty soon I got led to the next teacher and the next teacher. 

Then I had a shamanic spiritual healing. That woke me up big time because I thought I was one thing. I thought I was this solid thing called Kerri like there was just one thing. When I was in the middle of this healing session, I realized, “Oh my gosh. There’s multiple aspects of me. There’s energy that can be taken out. I can feel it being removed. I can feel it go over there in the burning sage and it disappears and I’m here. This is more true. So what is all that stuff in me that’s cluttering up me? That’s not me. What is that stuff?” It’s like I instantly had this awareness that I was filled up with a bunch of gunk that was not my true self, that it was a bunch of stuff. I didn’t know what it was but it was gunk and it was cluttering me. I had that instant knowing of that. I felt different after 45 minutes. He took this energy out of my heart that had been there since my whole life, that always felt like the only way I can describe it really is a menstrual cramp but like around my heart. It would ache anytime I thought somebody hated me or didn’t like me or they looked at me funny or I felt inadequate or I was like reviewing my past performance of something at work, my heart would ache. He took it out. It’s gone. I never had that feeling since. He just removed it. I mean I thought, “Wow. 45 minutes and that can happen? I’m doing that. I don’t care what that is. I’m learning how to do that.” That’s what started me really on my path to becoming what I am today.


[0:26:53] Ashley James: Oh. So cool. I’ve had that experience before. My first time doing an NLP session with someone back in 2004-2005. I did a NLP breakthrough sessions about eight hours long. We did timeline therapy. She also did some huna work, which is the Hawaiian spiritual practice. So, she does the energy work but it was NLP timeline therapy hypnosis. We did this whole session and I walked out of there. I felt weight lifted off my shoulders that I had carried most of my life. I walked around with this weight, this heaviness pushing down on me physically. Physically I could feel it. After the session I physically felt it removed. It was just taken off my shoulders. That was also when I completed my grieving. I was in depression and grief from losing my mother two years before. 

So, I went all kinds of therapists because I was seeking how to grieve healthfully. What I really saw in the therapy field, at the time every therapist I went to it was either you are broken or you’re normal. You’re either abnormal or you’re normal. There was no focus on let’s strive for excellence because I wanted to grieve in the healthiest way possible. I wanted to achieve like excellence around grieving. There was no like, “All right. Let’s make you like the most excellent human griever. Let’s do it in the most healthy way.” No it was like you’re either broken up and abnormal or you’re normal and you don’t have to come here anymore. I thought that was really interesting. 

So, when I learn more about NLP, neuro-linguistic programming, that they designed it. That Richard Bandler and John Grinder back in the 60s and 70s originally designed it out of this exact same observation that they saw that in the therapy field in the United States, which culturally the people in the United States are always striving to be the best. That’s part of the American Dream. Strive for absolute excellence. Achieve the maximum. Be the best basketball player you can be. Be the best trader on Wall Street you could be. Whatever it is, be the best cyclist you can be or the runner. In those fields, that’s considered normal to want to be the best that you can and go and find a coach to help you be the best you can. But when it came to mental health, that wasn’t the perception back in the 60s and 70s. It was either you’re normal or you’re abnormal. There was zero focus on excellence, on achieving excellence around emotional and mental health. It wasn’t a thing. 

So, they created neuro-linguistic programming to bring about a toolset that had people just throw out that old system of you’re either broken or you’re normal. We don’t need to put ourselves in that box. We don’t need to live in that story. Instead, we’re all human beings and let’s create the most excellent experience we can, excellent emotional and mental health we can. It’s a bunch of tools basically that you can learn to help you be in your excellence. 

So, I dove into that. Actually then out of that experience, my first night walking out feeling like that weight was lifted off me that was taken out of me and off me I said, “I have to learn how to do this.” So, I went and took all the trainings and became a master practitioner and trainer of NLP and timeline therapy and hypnosis. I thought that was just, I mean that was like a whole world opened up. I couldn’t believe that just like you, this whole world opens up and you’re like I’ve been in therapy for 20 years and now it’s like, “Why didn’t someone tell me about this. That there’s a spiritual healing and mental healing on a whole new level.”

So you broke free from this old system. I love that you had the really solid experience of both systems because I am sure that therapy is very effective for people. You have to sort of find the right tool for you, find the right tool for the job. Some people really thrive in seeking out Freudian therapy. 200 hours on the couch and that’s what they needed. Other people need behavioral psychology or cognitive therapy. Then you get to that point where you want to break free from the stories and you want to transform how you relate to yourself, how you relate to the world and switch over from judgment to curiosity. I love that. I love that you had that very clear transition. It’s really beautiful. So now you have broken free. How do you go back though? There’s the people in your life who still relate to you as the old Kerri? How do you transform how people relate to you?


[0:32:04] Kerri Hummingbird: Well, so that’s a very good question. The answer is that everyone is sovereign. Every person is sovereign. As such, every person’s really responsible for their own perceptions and the stories they choose to tell. Sometimes those stories they choose to tell they like to hold on to for a lot of reasons. So, let’s just explore that topic for a second.

So, in my case the story that my closest people liked to tell was that I was responsible for all the problems in the family. 

Photo by Ben White on Unsplash


[0:32:44] Ashley James: That’s convenient.


[0:32:45] Kerri Hummingbird: So, that’s pretty convenient. So, nobody wants to change that story but me. Okay. So, that’s been one of the major hurdles in my life is that I’ve gotten the opportunity to heal myself all the way down to the core identity. If you think about it, your parents, your mother gives you your core identity because that’s the one whose body you were birthed in. That’s the one who is nurturing you and caring for you. That’s the person whose opinion you really care about the most as a little child. You really want your mommy to love you. All of us do. When that isn’t possible in the way that you need it, then the opportunity is to learn how to give that to yourself. 

The body of work that I’m working on right now is called Love is Fierce: Healing the Mother Wound. So the work I’ve been doing in private with clients is healing that last vestige of doubt inside. That you’re worthy of love. That comes from a lot of ideas in our heads, a lot of information that comes in the form of not necessarily words but just feelings and sensations and perceptions and even psychic knowings about how our mother feels about us and about herself. That really impacts our psychology especially as a woman. I know that boys are also affected by that because I am a mother and I had a mother wound and I passed it on to my sons. As soon as I’ve become aware of this, I’ve been doing everything I can to help them to assert their own identity and have a really strong knowing that their mom’s okay.

There’s just so many psychological uncertainties that get kicked up when you as a child perceive a number of things. Like if you perceive that your mom’s irritated by you. If you perceive that you’re not really wanted. If you perceive that you’re a nuisance. If you perceive that your mom’s not okay, that she’s got emotional problems or she doesn’t seem to be able to show up for you. There’s a lot of ways that this presents itself, but all of that stuff it gets in a way of you knowing that you’re okay inside of you. You actually don’t feel okay because of it. Sometimes, like you said like how do you deal with your family who wants to keep telling the same story about you? There are family systems that get constructed around this entire dynamic to hold it in place.

So, when you start rocking the boat and trying to change it what happens is push back. Because if you change, everybody else in the ocean has to change. If you change the story, they either have to clutch their story tighter or they have to meet you partway and start seeing something new. A lot of people, if you change that means something in the dynamic has changed and now they own some piece of it. 


[0:36:04] Ashley James: It’s like enforcing healthy boundaries.


[0:36:08] Kerri Hummingbird: Yeah. Healthy boundaries. Like you don’t tell me who I am. Here was the crux of my issue. My whole life and I’m only now breaking free because it’s a really deep wound. It’s like there is a splinter that gets placed inside your consciousness. Really young if you’re having this kind of situation like I experienced. Then a whole bunch of layers and stories and stuff authenticates it. Then it gets bigger and bigger and the crust around it grows. Pretty soon you know you can’t even decide, “Should I choose option A or B? I’m not sure about myself. I don’t know which one to pick.” Yeah. We don’t even know what we want or how to direct our way through life. We’re so out of touch with ourselves that we just don’t know what to do.

So, this is about identity. It’s about identity and about reclaiming identity and deciding that nobody can tell you who you are, not even your mother. Nobody can tell you who you are. That you are safe in becoming curious and exploring who you really are and letting yourself do that. Along the path of doing that, I faced all kinds of things like mysterious feelings of being choked, like body sensations. I mean just old memories in my body. All kinds of fears that came up about speaking. When I started speaking on podcasts all these fears came up. I would start having really unconscious self-sabotaging behavior because I knew I was telling on mom and that was really dangerous. 

There was just a lot of things that came up for me that were true for me as a little child but are totally not true for me as an adult. So, this is really the process of becoming a mature person and owning the psychology inside of you and taking ownership of becoming your own mother, taking ownership of becoming your own father and really guiding your own life and giving yourself permission to be who you are and who you choose to be no matter what anybody else says about you. Even if they’re your closest people and they’re your family. It’s that deep.


[0:38:27] Ashley James: You said that no one else can determine or can say who you are. I would take it one step further and say even your belief systems don’t have the right to tell you who you are because –


[0:38:41] Kerri Hummingbird: The conditioning.


[0:38:42] Ashley James: The old belief systems. Yeah. The old conditioning comes from the decisions that we made as children. Something happened like we got spanked and we decided that we’re not loved or we got yelled at because we did something as a child and we decided we’re not good enough, we’re not worthy, we’re not smart, we’re not beautiful, we’re fat we’re ugly, we’re unwanted. All these unconscious limiting decisions that we built as our identity and that become our filters in life that don’t let us see. That’s how the unconscious mind works. It’s how the brain works in forming our reality. 

Our unconscious limiting decisions are the filters that will negate positive information. It’s called the reticular activating system. It’s a filter in the unconscious near the brainstem. It won’t let us see things that go against our belief system. So, if I believe I’m not loved and Kerri says, “Ashley, I love you.” My brain won’t accept it. I will make a decision. Either I’ll ignore it, I won’t hear it. We delete, distort and generalize. I’ll delete it entirely. We won’t even hear the person say it. Or in my brain I’ll go, “Oh. She’s just saying that because she wants something,” or “She’s just saying that because she because she thinks she’s being nice,” or whatever. My brain will negate it because we won’t allow for positive information to come into our conscious and form our reality when we have these filters. 

We often then believe that that is reality when it’s not. It is a distorted, it’s like looking through a kaleidoscope but the kaleidoscope is made up of all the negative emotions and living decisions from our childhood that we’ve been filtering our life through. So, when you said no one has a right to tell you who your identity is. What I got heavily is and neither does your belief system.


[0:41:02] Kerri Hummingbird: Neither. Yeah. You have to become aware of it, which is why it’s so important to have presence. Because in presence things quiet down and we get out of the story. A lot of people are addicted to the story and I completely understand that. Remember, I spent 20 years telling my story on a couch so I get it. That doesn’t serve us. Well, let’s just say it doesn’t serve us if we want to transform and evolve. If we want to stay where we are it serves us quite well because that’s what it does. It keeps us where we are. If we want things to change, then we need to stop believing our story and start becoming curious about it. Also curious like, “Is that my story or is that something else?” I’ll give an example. 

I had a first stepfather who was very violent and didn’t like children apparently. That’s the story I have about it. There was this feeling of not liking kids that got into me. Like not liking and being playful and boisterous got you in trouble. So, I experienced some of this and throughout my childhood. Well, so then recently I have my own sons, but since I woke up, I would say since I woke up since 2011, in the last four years I’ve been with my new husband who has two younger children. So, I got a chance to revisit some of this. What I noticed was that as the young children were being very boisterous, I would hear this voice in my head that said, “Damn kids.” I had enough presence of mind to go, “Wow. Where is that coming from?” Whereas before it might have just been part of the background noise and I wouldn’t even have heard it. I’m sure it was there when I was raising my children because it didn’t just pop up out of nowhere. 

Wow. Where did that come from? I was so unaware of it before but it was operating me. It was driving me. It was part of the conditioning that I had in my brain. So, now that I have presence, I heard that voice. I heard it distinctly. I asked myself, “Wow. Where is that coming from?” I sat with myself for a while until the answer bubbled up. It kind of bubbles up from inside when you sit with presence. It was that first stepfather who didn’t like kids and it has made a big impression on me. That somehow being a kid was wrong and it was bad and it was annoying and all of these things. So, I think that when we have presence, when we’re willing to stop telling the story and start listening to ourselves inside we can learn a lot about what’s driving the story we’re so emphatic to tell. 


[0:44:02] Ashley James: Can you teach us how if we’ve never had the ability to have presence? How do you start to formulate presence so that we can slow down the self-talk in order to process it, in order to get curious and dive deeper?


[0:44:19] Kerri Hummingbird: Absolutely. Well, there’s a number of pathways that I experienced. Yoga was certainly one of them. Working with the breath. Putting breath into anything slows things down. You’re focusing on breathing, you’re focusing on the in-breath. The in-breath, the out-breath, the way it feels as it goes through your body. For me though I need a little bit more than that because I had a very chattery mind, really super chattery. I was not really able to sit and meditate. People kept saying, “Oh. Well, just sit and meditate and you’ll quiet down.” I thought, “Oh. I sit and meditate and it gets louder.” There’s a lot of noise in there. It’s uncomfortable. I can’t sit still. I don’t like being with all that. 

So for me, what I ended up doing was learning about shamanic drumming. The interesting thing about drum journey music is that the ancient people always knew that certain beats of the drum actually stimulate your brain to go into a different state of mind, a trance if you will activates a different frequency in your brain. Instead of it being beta, which is super busy busy busy, it activates theta state and alpha state, which are more relaxed. The theta state is more of a dreaming state. You can even access gamma state, which is pretty cool. That’s where you have transcendent visions. But the drumbeat and working with the drum actually really helped me to ground myself in my body and to quiet my mind. I was able to start having visions even and information. 

So, you build on what you have. So, any little tiny little wiggle space of quiet that you have, whatever worked to get that you just keep doing more of that and building out that space and sort of building that muscle of quiet within you where you can listen and receive. The more you work on that muscle the greater the muscle gets. All of my training in energy healing I got certified from the Four Winds Light Body School of Medicine. A lot of that training has to do with listening to the client, listening to their energy field and what messages are coming up? What are you feeling in your body empathically from their body and their experience? There’s a lot of listening. 

After all of these training and all these working with clients and channeling information for them, I started channeling in groups. It opened up in front of a lot of people. Now I wrote a book last year that the whole book was channeled. I literally sat down, didn’t think at all. The words just came out and I just channeled it. That’s a flow. I found that that’s where that’s brilliant. My friends are like, “Oh. That book is brilliant.” and I am like, “Thank you.” It’s like I feel like I didn’t do it because I just channeled it but actually in a way I did it because I was able to get quiet. I was able to open myself up to let the flow come through. That flow that’s tapped into all that is.

So, I hope that answers your question but I feel like it’s a muscle. You’ve got to exercise it every day. The more you exercise it the better you get at it and then miraculous things can happen like I experienced.


[0:47:54] Ashley James: If you didn’t consciously write the book then who wrote the book?


[0:47:59] Kerri Hummingbird: I feel like it was my higher self, my guide. For that book I feel like – everyone has their own belief systems around this but I really believe that we are souls having a human experience. The human part, the ego part, can be really delicious in the fact that it gets to have all these experiences that feel really real and gets to feel pain and an excitement and suffering and also gets to have a lot of chattering mind and thoughts and gets to feel and create. There is another aspect of us though that is really timeless, eternal, wise, connected to all that is. I would call that the soul. When we can do a dance with the soul so that us the personality, the personality self and the soul self can be together in one consciousness, in one moment in the now, together in the now, then amazing things can happen. That as a personality self, there’s no way I could have done that. 

The book I wrote, I just don’t see that happening in the timeframe that it happened. With the ease and grace that happened without the dance of my soul. The dance of my soul is what manifested that into being. It’s my willingness to listen. 

It’s just amazing every time I let it out. I just did a weekend. I got the opportunity to do a weekend presentation at the Evolutionary Business Council. I decided to do that in the presentation, just let go. Don’t script it, just let go. So, I let go. I had written the speech. I’d written everything and I tossed it out. I just said, “Okay.” My soul I call white eagle. So I said, “Okay white eagle. Take it. Take it and run with it. Let’s do this.” It was amazing. It was like, “Whoa.” Everybody was engaged. Everybody took action. They all were like, “Yes. This is exactly right. Because when I step into that space, which I’ve been practicing in my healing sessions and with clients and groups, when I step into that space of the flow and of my soul like brilliance comes out. It’s pretty awesome to experience because that part of you is wise and eternal like they know everything. So, I don’t know. That’s just my experience out of it. It’s amazing. It’s profound.


[0:50:26] Ashley James: I know what you’re talking about but I don’t think everyone does. In the training that I’ve done with becoming an NLP trainer and even before that with Landmark Education, you get to a place where you create so much peace inside yourself. In NLP we call it generate. You just generate so you could stand there and just start talking. It’s coming from this very pure place inside you where you don’t have to think about it before you say it. You don’t have to plan. You don’t even necessarily know what you’re going to say until you start saying it. It’s so brilliant. The brilliance that comes out comes from this very beautiful authentic place inside you like it’s not ego. You definitely feel connected to God, you feel connected to spirit, your soul. You feel grounded. You feel very grounded but at the same time you just start to feel like you’re phasing. Your energy is vibrating on a little bit of a different wavelength like you’re not here, present. You feel a little bit like you’re high.


[0:51:45] Kerri Hummingbird: Yes.


[0:51:46] Ashley James: You know what I mean? You’re a little high. You’re going in a brain is in a different wavelength and it’s really beautiful. I love it. This is something that I don’t think about. I just do but I developed it over years and years and years working with Landmark and then in NLP and being an NLP trainer and then doing this podcast. 

When I first started the podcast it was so funny. I was nervous I was writing. I was studying and writing down 20 questions and worrying, “Do I have enough questions to write down?” The first maybe 10 episodes I was scripted. I have my questions that I’d asked them, but I soon realized very quickly that I could not do these interviews with questions written down beforehand because the second they started talking like my brain would go, “What about this, what about that? Let’s explore this.” The interviews weren’t this wonderful flow. Their flow wasn’t there. It was totally cut off because I wanted to script it and ask these questions that were pre-created.

So, I had to let go. It was like walking a tightrope and saying, “Okay. You could take the safety net away now.” I went in blind to the interviews. I went in totally blind. Just knowing a little bit about the person and their background with no questions pre-created and it was brilliant. I was so nervous. The thought came to me. It was like, “What if I can’t think of anything to ask? The answer I got was you just start talking, just start having a conversation and be in the moment with them. Be present and generate and it’ll come to you. So I started to just talk to these people as I interviewed them with no questions written down. The flow was so different. The energy was so different. It was about being present with them and the questions would just come from my higher self, would come from somewhere.

So, I get it. When you’re at present in the moment and you’re listening and you’re tapped in, you generate. It’s beautiful creativity. Your identity kind of melts away. You’re not in that story anymore, are you?


[0:54:11] Kerri Hummingbird: No, you’re not. That’s really the secret if you want to change your life is you change this story you tell about yourself, you change your identity. I experienced this over the last eight years. I mean, eight years ago, think about it, I was a woman with a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. I have been sleeping around on my husband with a lot of strangers at art shows when I was on the weekend doing my art shows. Anybody would look at me and say, “Yup. She’s crazy.” Pretty much. People might say that about me today but for a totally different reason and I’m okay with it.

So today, I’m on podcast with people like you who are really conscious, enlightened leaders trying to help people to see another way. I’ve got an international bestseller for you know 25 weeks now running. It’s kind of amazing. It’s blowing my mind. All of this stuff is amazing to me. It happened because I was willing to let go of my identity. I mean, I was thankful to let go of it to be quite honest. I think I got to the bottom of the pit and I said, “You know what, I don’t want to be whatever I’ve been being so far. Whatever that story is that’s creating that I don’t want that.” When my yogi said, “Hey. You’re creating this.” I looked at him and some deep part of me knew that I was. I said, “Yeah. You’re right and I’m going to stop doing that.”

I got fed up with my story. I think that you’ve got to get fed up with your story to the point where you’re willing to change everything in your life just to have a better story. That’s the place to be and then you can create magic. You can really reinvent yourself. I’ve really good friends who have had terminal cancer diagnosis. They’ve healed themselves through a lot of inner work, a lot of inner work, a lot of treatment options, various combinations of options but the end being that they did it because they decided they were fed up with the story that they had cancer and they weren’t going to go out that way. They made sure that they healed themselves. One of my friends, stage five cancer. That’s it, right? That’s the last stop. For the month that she was supposed to die, she only had like maybe four weeks to live or something, she imagined that she was traveling, which was her favorite thing to do. She made it real. She traveled. She could only go, she couldn’t actually go anywhere, but she pretended she was in France. She made it real for herself. She convinced her brain that she was traveling and enjoying herself in France and that tumor subsided. She actually lived. She’s alive today and she’s out speaking about it. 

So, I know that people have had these experiences this isn’t like bunk, this is real. Our brains are so powerful. We have to open to that deep wise one within us in order to change our lives’ circumstances. To do that, we have to release the identity. We have to release the story about ourselves while we’re in the middle of the story, which is super challenging, to release the identity and the story of ourselves while we’re still experiencing the effects of the story we’ve been telling. That’s the challenging part, Ashley, isn’t it?


[0:57:26] Ashley James: I want to interview your friend. Can you hook me up with her information? I’m actually crying right now. In my 20s, I was at a point in my early 20s where was suffering emotionally. I’d lost my mom. I was suffering. I was in an abusive relationship in an emotionally and mentally abusive relationship, but I didn’t know it because you don’t know it when you’re in the relationship.


[0:57:56] Kerri Hummingbird: You don’t know it.


[0:57:57] Ashley James: Well, because they’re really good at making you think that you’re the problem when they’re clearly emotionally and mentally abusive. At my mom’s funeral, he pulled me aside and yelled at me for not paying enough attention to him. I apologized. I mean at my mother’s funeral, he made me feel guilty. I say the word made me feel because now I get that no one can make me feel anything. My language back then was he made me feel this way. I get now. I put myself in that position to be in that relationship and I got out of it. Then I went, “Oh my gosh. I can’t believe.” I started to look back at the whole five-six years with him and I realized that it was very emotionally manipulative, emotionally abusive and a very unhealthy relationship. But at the time, it was like you can’t see the air you’re breathing.

So, my early 20s, I was in a very bad place emotionally, mentally and physically. I had a lot of diseases. According to the doctors, I was told I’d be on these medications my whole life. I was told I’d never have kids. I had polycystic ovarian syndrome. I had type 2 diabetes. I had chronic adrenal fatigue. I had chronic infections for which I took monthly antibiotics for. I felt like a prisoner in my own body. I couldn’t wake up in the morning. I couldn’t actually understand human language in the morning. My brain could not process human language. I was so broken. I felt so broken.

Every morning I woke up with a hangover, although I did not drink alcohol because of my physical state was so sick. So, I’d wake up every morning with all the symptoms of a hangover. Feeling like I partied the entire night although I didn’t. I only started to feel normal in the evenings and that’s because my cortisol levels were so extremely low that they just started to creep up in the evenings. Then it was hard to get to bed at night because that’s when I actually started to have my brain back and start to have energy.

I was eating the standard American or standard Canadian diet. In a bad place emotionally, but I was trying to get out of it. I was living in the identity that I was diabetic. I was living in the identity that I am, I have polycystic ovarian syndrome, I am infertile or whatever the identity the doctors diagnosed me with. The diagnosis becomes an identity. At first, and you said this earlier, at first the diagnosis is a relief. There’s this feeling of relief that washes over you after months or years of suffering. You’re finally given this label because then it’s like, “Look. People are acknowledging my internal suffering. I’m not crazy. They see it. This label proves that my suffering is real and others can finally get that it’s real.” But then it becomes the cage that we live in. 


[1:01:16] Kerri Hummingbird: Yes. It becomes a cage. It’s exactly right. I realized in my case, and I don’t know how you feel about yours, that I realized I was the spider spinning the web around myself. I was a spider, the web and the fly. 

[1:01:35] Ashley James: You’re everything.


[1:01:37] Kerri Hummingbird: Like it’s a closed system. I’m doing it to myself. So, it took a long time to unweave and unwire that. But the first decision was no matter what it takes I don’t care. Whatever it takes I’m going to be what I really want to be. So I said, “What do I really want to be?” So, I picked the first thing that inspired me. So, this is another little tip. Pick the first thing that inspires you because that’s probably true. Inspiration is true. I believe inspiration is true. For me, it was a vision I had. It was my first mystical vision.

I was doing a drum journey, meditation with my drum in my little apartment I was renting. I was manifesting my home that I currently live in now. I wanted to buy this home. My real estate agent had said, “Well, they’re already under contract and they’ve been back and forth a couple times. Usually, almost always in that case, you’re not going to get the house. I said, “I know that’s my house.” So, I did this drum journey and I started visualizing, “Okay. I’m in my house. I’m in my house. I’m in my house.” I saw myself in there and I saw my grandparents who have deceased. I saw them come and visit in the house. We were talking about how beautiful it was. I was making the whole thing up in my brain, imagining it until the very end. When I’m standing in the house in my dream, in my vision looking in the kitchen, looking out the back window and all of a sudden a rainbow light hummingbird whoosh in the back window and hovers there and space expands. All I could do is just go, “Wow.” I’m not making that happen. That’s amazing. What is that? I love that. Oh my god. It’s a rainbow hummingbird. Wow.

As soon as I stopped the drum journey because I was just profound, the phone rang. It was my real-estate agent and she said, “Oh. The deal fell through so they went your offer. You can have the house.” So, that really inspired me, Ashley. I got to say, that was a mystical vision experience. I thought, “Okay. What does hummingbird mean?” So I looked it up in the animal guide, animal spirits what does that mean? I had learned about animal spirits. I didn’t know about it before, eight years ago. But I looked up this guide and I said, “Okay. Hummingbird.” Everything it said, anything is possible. Yes. I’ve always known that. I’ve always known inside of me that anything is possible. There’s this part of me that was so fiercely knowing that. That’s what got me through all this hellacious sitting in psychotherapy for 20 years. I knew that anything is possible. I knew that it didn’t have to be this way.

So, I kept looking for the answer to solve the problem because I knew that that wasn’t the way my life had to be. So, I thought, “Yes. That’s me, hummingbird [unintelligible] of spirit. Yes, I opened to that. Yes, I want that.” So, really shortly after that I started calling myself Kerri Hummingbird. I even changed it on social media, which at first was really awkward because my friends were saying, “What are you doing? What is that? But then people started saying, “You know what Kerri, that really is you. That is you. That’s more true. That’s actually more true than the last name you had. That’s true for you.

So, it became my truth. So, what I did was I created this vision board about Kerri Hummingbird. I put it on my wall and I just kept looking at that. Any time I had a challenge I would ask myself, “Well, what would Kerri Hummingbird do about that? How would Kerri Hummingbird respond to that?” It’s like I was tapping into this more true aspect of myself, this future self even. You could even think of it that way. Tapping into the future person I am today and saying, “Kerri Hummingbird, what would you do right now because I’m not quite you yet but I want to be you.”

Photo by 胡 卓亨 on Unsplash


[1:05:37] Ashley James: Oh, I love that.


[1:05:38] Kerri Hummingbird: What do I want to be? I want to be me. I was trying to be me the whole time but I had to find me underneath all that crap that got placed on me by all the conditioning and all the stories that I told and all the stories that everybody else told. All the story story story story story story story, which is why I say presence. Presence and inspiration, that’s the place to be.


[1:06:01] Ashley James: Oh, I love. I love that. I have this technique I learned from – who knows where I learned this from. One of my passions since I was a teenager has been personal growth and development so I picked this up somewhere. This idea that when you set a goal, so for me because I’m hitting the gym pretty hard this year with my husband, and I really dialed in my diet in the last two years. I’m really really happy with the nutrition, the quality of nutrition my body is getting. I decided I want to sculpt my body in a different way. In a really healthy way but I’ve finally figured out what I want to look like and what I want to feel like in my body.

So, we’re going to the gym with this very specific intention. I found some really great videos on YouTube. We’re following these exercises I’ve never seen before. It’s really cool. Actually, today at the gym, someone came up to us and said, he’s 76 years old he goes, “I’ve been were working out my whole life. I’ve never seen that exercise. It looks really neat. How did you figure that out?” So, we’re doing some fun things in the gym but. What I learned is you imagine your goal. So, let’s say Ashley a year from now. I’m imagining my goal and the person I create myself to be a year from now after spending 365 days in the gym, for example. I stand there in my mind in the future Ashley and then what I do is I look back to now. So, having achieved my goal I stand there in my body, my newly sculpted body, having achieved the goal looking back to now and I see all the steps I had to take to get here.

So, it’s similar to what you’re saying. It’s like talk to your future self. Talk to the person you are. What would future Ashley say? The Ashley that’s hit the gym and sculpted her body, what would she say? She’d be like, “Get out of bed. It’s 7:30. Let’s go. What are you doing?” When I am in doubt, what do I do? What do I do here? I start asking myself, what would rock-hard-ab Ashley say?


[1:08:28] Kerri Hummingbird: Yeah. I love it. I mean, this is really cool because basically everybody can see that in any moment you have choice A or choice B and maybe even choice C, right? So, you could predict that there’s one Ashley in the future that didn’t do any of that stuff, but there’s another Ashley that totally did do all that stuff. So, you want to tap into the Ashley that did all the stuff in order to become the person you want to be, right? Then exactly, ask her. What were the choice points? What were the choice?

Part of manifestation is doing exactly what you did, imagining yourself in the future point as if it’s now, having accomplished exactly everything you want to accomplish, feeling what you’re going to feel, knowing it happened. How does it feel? Receiving all of that, how does it feel, that accomplishment feeling? What are the things going on in your brain? Who are you being in order to be that person? All of that is really real. It manifested it. It plants a seed, but we actually also you’ve got to take the actions. So, it’s not just about dreaming it, it’s about becoming it through action.

So, I love that you said you look back and say, “Okay. What were all the actions I took in order to get to that person I’m standing at now.”


[1:09:38] Ashley James: Right. Right. Because I think the New Age gets a bad rap because it’s like you can’t just imagine yourself into wealth or health, but that is the first step. You have to shift your belief system and that’s what I had to do. When I was suffering, there was this point there was this moment that occurred around 2004 for me. I was sitting at home suffering like I had every day emotionally, mentally, physically trapped on a prison of illness. There was a moment where I had this realization. It was actually watching What The Bleep Do We Know, which I think everyone needs to watch twice. So, I had the DVD. I watched What The Bleep Do We Know and tip hot tears were just constantly coming out of my eyes the entire time. I think it was around 11:00 PM I finished watching it and I immediately hit play again. I had to watch it twice. It was hitting me so hard. I was ready to receive that information.

So, I watched What The Bleep twice in a row. What I got because I felt so stuck, I felt so stuck in the broken identity of the diagnosis, of all the diagnosis that I had been given. I had taken that on as my identity. I had taken on this world of suffering as my only truth. By the time I was done watching What The Bleep Do We Know twice, I got that I can choose a different reality, different from the reality I was living in. So, that moment of shifting my mindset, the very next morning, everything began to fall into place.

I was applying for a loan, a loan that was going to help me to pay for the trainings to start this as a business, to become an NLP trainer. It was a no the day before. I shifted my mindset. That next morning I get a phone call it was a yes. It was like one piece after another. Everything. The housing because I had to move to the states over the summer to do all these trainings, that came into place. The transportation came to me. Everything just started clicking. Everything started clicking because my belief system was that it was 100% possible. But I went from this desperation in my mind that none of it’s possible to it 100% is possible.

So, that mindset thing. You have to have the mindset first. You have to envision yourself succeeding first and then take the actionable steps. I love that you talk about you got to be present and open to the flow. Takes breaths, slow things down so that you can begin to identify the negative self-talk that you might be believing is true but it’s not. Then you have to get that you’re not broken, that you are not your diagnosis and that you can break free from that. Because I got that my mindset, I all of a sudden shifted and went, “Wow. I am not these things. This is not my box anymore.” That I was able to then take the actionable steps to heal my body and now I no longer have any of those issues. But I wouldn’t have even taken the actual steps had I not started with my mindset.


[1:13:08] Kerri Hummingbird: Yeah. I agree with you. The mindset is key. It continues to be key because it is a self-mastery with your mindset. There is a way of overemphasizing the mindset because it’s not the only thing. You can have an excellent mindset and then it still doesn’t shift. Then you’re like, “Well, what’s wrong with my mindset? How come it’s not shifting?” It’s because there’s stuff in your subconscious that needs listening to. So, there is a listening piece is really important. So, I just wanted to raise that up, the listening piece. Because sometimes the stuff that’s getting in your way is stuff that you inherited from your ancestry that you might not have even known those people. It’s in your ancestry. It’s a repeating pattern. We all know that we have repeating patterns in our own lives, but they also go across ancestry, across generations. So, some of this stuff is beyond you. So, that’s why it’s important to get really good at listening inside and discerning and opening up to the possibilities of all the things it could be that’s keeping you where you are so that you can shift it, really shift it, like absolutely to stop the pattern. Like you said, what you did that day that was enough for you. There wasn’t anything else in the way. So, your clear decision, your very clear decision stopped the pattern for you in that day and bam it was one moment and then you started recovering and going on your way. That can happen with everything.

So, we just have to realize that this is the puzzle. So, it’s like you slipped into a thumbprint suit that had all these little hidden gems and things like a video game and you have to find it all. Well, some of it’s going to be easy to find. Some of its going to be really hard to find depending on your level of mastery. So, don’t give up the game. Keep playing the game and realize that the object of the game is to get up the pyramid. So, Maslow’s hierarchy of need. Hanging out on the bottom row on, on survival, that’s not the goal of the game. The goal of the game is to climb the mountain. The goal of the game is to get all the way at the top of the pyramid of self-actualization. That’s the goal of the game.

It’s possible for everybody on the planet. What you need is support. It’s really helpful to have the help of people like Ashley that’s why it’s great you guys are listening to the show. Every week you’re getting filled up with beautiful insights that help you on your journey up the mountain, up the pyramid. Keep doing that. Keep taking the steps. You got to keep taking the steps and solving the puzzle. If you get a little discouraged, it’s fine to have a time-out when you get frustrated and have temper tantrum. That’s all good. We’re human. We’re going to get frustrated, but then practice the self-mastery, practice your mental mastery, practice your emotional mastery, practice your spiritual mastery. Practice all these things and pull yourself up the mountain and give yourself support. We are the sum of the five people we hang out with the most, right? So, hang out with different people. Hang out with people that have gotten up further up the mountain than you. Their collective energy is going to lift you up. That’s going to bring you up.

So, circling back to that conversation around what do you do with your family? Well, what do you do with your family if they want to keep you stuck in the old pattern? If the only way your family will love you is if you go along with being the one who’s broken and wrong, well, I think you need a new family for now. You need to find your home in community of people that can see the beauty that you are because when you feel like you’ve got this diagnosis and your life is stuck and everything’s going wrong and nobody in your current environment is supporting you, they’re all kind of keeping you stuck in that story of you, you’ve got to put yourself outside of your condition. You’ve got to change fish tanks. Get out of that stinky water fish tank and hop on over to the next one where the water is clean and start hanging out with different people that can show you different aspects of yourself. Then when you’re really strong in your new identity and I would like to say when you’re really strong in your soul eventually, it takes a little while to get there, but when you’re really self-actualized, you can be around anybody and it won’t matter. You can really flex that muscle of being you, being authentically you around everybody and just letting everybody have their own opinion. It doesn’t matter what they think. It won’t matter to you anymore. You can love them anyway. You can love them no matter what they say or think or do about you. You can get to that place.

Along the journey you need to give yourself spaces for incubation, incubation space where you can really percolate in the new energy and get strong in the new energy so that you can find your voice and find your truth inside of you without all those old stories. If you get retriggered into old stories, if you keep putting yourself in the old environment, it’s really hard to break free of it. It’s hard to get in the new energy when you keep putting yourself in the old energy. So, for a little while it’s helpful to incubate someplace positive to get filled up with good energy. Then it’s good to go back and flex the muscle because when you’re stronger and you know who you are more then you can make it even stronger by putting yourself in the challenge again so you get strong again there. Then you know where you got to do your work.

So, I call it plugging up the holes. Once you get your cup full enough you can start to see where are the leaks in my ship If you could start plugging them up.


[1:18:38] Ashley James: So, take yourself out of the bad environment, put yourself in a really positive environment, surround yourself with a new community that’s very positive that sees you as the person you really are inside without all the story. Then once you’ve really strengthened this resolve within you that you have shed, you’ve healed and shed a lot of the old that you’ve become the person you know you are deep inside, you’re more authentically you, then go back to the old environment in order to see what gets triggered, in order to see what you can heal. Because you go back when you’re strong enough to be able to be unshakable and then start as you then look, “Oh. Wow. They triggered me here. I got to work on this.” Not a point of blaming them like they did it to me but a point of, “Oh. Wow. That was a button for me. I need to work on that.” While you’re doing that, you can also transmute. Begin to work on and see if you can start to create new healthy relationships with those people in your life. Maybe they’ll be ready. Maybe they’ll be ready to see, to relate to you as the authentic person you are instead of your old story. It does take enforcing boundaries.


[1:19:57] Kerri Hummingbird: It does. It takes boundaries. Also, there’s a guilty little secret that we end up having to admit to ourselves, which is that we’re also holding them in a story about who they are to you.


[1:20:06] Ashley James: Yes. Yes.


[1:20:08] Kerri Hummingbird: We have to let go of that too.


[1:20:11] Ashley James: Yes. I’m so glad you brought that up. When I heard that Carl Jung and this is an abbreviation of one of his quotes but that we marry our unconscious mind and project onto them all of our unconscious unresolved material. When I got that, I had to repeat it over and over and over. It hit me so deeply that all the while I’ve been pointing my finger at everyone else going, “You don’t get me. You don’t get me. You don’t see the authentic me.” I’m like, “Holy crow. I don’t see the authentic them.” We’ll never actually know who our husband is or who our mom is or her sister is. We never will actually know because we are projecting onto them all of our stuff and our beliefs about them.


[1:20:57] Kerri Hummingbird: Our memories. Our stories.


[1:21:00] Ashley James: Yeah. We have to forgive. Right. All of our memories and the stories. Right. So, we can be forgiving in that aspect. We can go, “Okay. Maybe I can be a bit more gentle with the people in my life that have been triggering me.” I’ve been upset with people in my life because they’re not seeing who I really am but at the same time I haven’t been seeing who they really are. So, it is a two-way street.


[1:21:29] Kerri Hummingbird: Yeah. I like the thumbprint suit analogy that I got from my higher intelligence because it really does explain a lot. I mean, if you’re inside a thumbprint suit that has its own perspectives and perceptual windows through which you experience life and ancestral patterns and all this information about your soul. It’s unique, right? The thumbprint, there’s no two thumbprints alike. So, we might have a little overlap in our Venn diagrams but we’re really never going to understand each other ever. We will understand overlapping pieces and feel really good about that.

Then we have like, “Yay. Somebody understands me,” for like 10 minutes. Then they say something that is totally not aligned with us. Then we go all upset like, “Oh no. You’re one of them.” I mean, we’re all unique. That’s the thing is we’re built that way. We’re all pieces of the rainbow. If you think about the rainbow, look how many dots like infinite numbers of dots are available on the rainbow on the spectrum. Like infinite number of dots. So, maybe dots on the opposite sides of the spectrum, they don’t get along very well because they don’t share a whole lot in common, but they’re all part of the same rainbow. So, I love that too. So, think about your thumbprint. Think about, “Well, they’re not inside my thumbprint suit. They totally don’t understand so how can they tell me a story about me that’s more accurate than my story about me because I’m the one that’s in here all the time listening to everything. So, I think I know what’s true for me. I’m the only one in here as far as I know.”


[1:22:59] Ashley James: Are there any steps that you can give us around really seeing? When you’re in it it’s hard to see it but then all of a sudden you get it. All of a sudden you go, “Wow. I see it.” So, are there any steps or advice or homework you can give us so that we can start to see the limiting story that we’ve come up with ourselves? That this is this box that we’ve created like the idea that we’re broken. Be able to see it and go, “Oh. Wow. This isn’t actually my entire reality, it’s made-up. I made it up in my head. It’s not it’s not real. I’m not actually broken. I do have a chance to be someone who is healthy, someone who is whole.”


[1:23:54] Kerri Hummingbird: Yeah. So, what I like to do is I do think journaling is really helpful because you get to see it in print. Thoughts in your mind, they drift by really fast. The sneaky ones slide under the surface before you can hook them back. The ones that are really damaging are the ones that hide in the dark waters. So, whenever you grab a hold of one immediately write it down. Then that way you can explore it with your conscious mind because that’s really the goal. We want to explore with our conscious mind.

If you’ve ever driven someplace that you often go and then you end up there. Then you’re wondering, “How did I get here? Oh my goodness. I don’t remember even driving here.” That’s because your unconscious mind took over for you. Well, your unconscious mind takes over for you in a lot of things. Your unconscious mind takes over for you in a story you tell about yourself. When you meet somebody new the story you tell or on these broadcasts it’s a great experience because I get asked the same questions a lot of times. “What’s your history? What’s your story in a nutshell?”

So, what I like to do now is I like to play around and tell it different every time. So, I have this little task for myself or a little game or a challenge I give myself to tell the story different. So, you could try that. You could say, “Well, I notice I’m telling that same story,” and right in the middle of the sentence you could say, “Um, excuse me. I’d like to start over. I could tell a different story.” Right then and there you tell a different story. You tell it differently. So, it’s a process. It takes a lot of self-mastery and self-awareness and it takes time. But you can whittle down these pieces and become aware of what’s in the background. Like Ashley and I, I really recommend doing some alternative practices like working with energy if you’ve never tried that. Branch outside and see if you can shift it in a different way that you never expected.

So, try like a lot of different things. Say yes. There’s actually a challenge where you say yes to everything. Somebody invites you something you say yes. I think that’s a great one because it gets you outside of your box of what will work and what won’t work? It’s like you’ll just say yes to everything and you’ll find out. Think about it like an experiment. I think what’s really challenging with things like diets is that we say, “Well, Forever. Forever I am going to have no more dessert.” Well, that doesn’t work very well. So, it’s easier to say I’m going to run an experiment. For one week I’m not going to have dessert. I’m going to see what it feels like. How does my body feel? How does my mind feel? I’m going to do an honest assessment of myself before and after. I’m going to see what the results are. If I get a beneficial result, I will contemplate if I want to run the experiment longer.

So, it’s just a way of liberating yourself from too rigid of a structure with your goals and plans on what you want to achieve in your life. Be a little more playful with it. Give yourself some space and graze.


[1:26:57] Ashley James: Beautiful. Brilliant. Now, you’re the founder of Skills Not Pills movement. What is that?


[1:27:06] Kerri Hummingbird: Well, it’s a movement that I started because I had experienced psychotherapy, psychotropic pills in order to make me not feel, which then we’re supposed to fix me, but actually all the emotions that I was feeling in my life were stuffed under there it’s just that I was unaware of them. So, it just sort of suppressed the emotional experience underneath my awareness. When I finally came out of that fog, I had a lot of backed-up, pent-up emotional energy to process and I still had a diagnosis, all right. So, I thought, “Well, this doesn’t really work.” For me anyway. Everyone has to decide for themselves. Of course, you’re encouraged to consult with the doctor. But my idea was, why can’t we share with people alternatives to traditional Western medicine? Why can’t we share with people that energy healing is a thing? That you could shift the energy of something and it might actually just go away. I mean, why can’t we share with people NLP? Why can’t we share all these alternative modalities with people so that their first solution isn’t getting a pill? Maybe their last solution is to get a pill. Maybe there’s a whole other range of options before you get the pill. Maybe that’s not number one. Maybe it’s number 100 thing you try.

So, I’m just suggesting we flip it and we stop going to the pill first because it’s easy and convenient. Because in the long run it really isn’t. Just like littering seems easy and convenient, but in the long run we have to clean up the mess on our planet. So, I think that the whole goal with Skills Not Pills is to inspire people that there’s a whole lot of other ways of going about your life challenges than just taking a pill.


[1:28:45] Ashley James: Right. There’s times when we want them to temporarily take it like if there’s a difference between being suicidal or going off the you know. If a pill can help someone just get stable, we want that. It’s not that we’re saying never, no pills. There’s times when medication can be life-saving. We always want people to be healthy. The problem is 90 something percent of the time medication is just overprescribed. It’s given for everything. I remember my friend had a panic attack. Went to the hospital because she doesn’t know what was wrong with her. They sent her home with an anti-anxiety medication. They didn’t do any tests. She didn’t even know it was a panic attack. She’s like, “My heart’s pounding. I feel like I’m going to faint. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” She was very healthy, very healthy girl. We were maybe 19 at the time. She goes to hospital thinking she’s having a heart attack and they just send her home with anti-anxiety meds. Is that really helpful? Is that really helpful to just, “Here, take some meds. You’ll be fine. Just numb those feelings you’ll be fine.”

So, you’re saying that a lot of the time, and I’ve actually done a lot of interviews. Listeners can go to LearnTrueHealth.com and search ADHD. There’s some interviews I’ve done where the guests have shared that ADHD meds just made it much worse. They gave a lot of symptoms. The side-effects and they didn’t get to heal it. They didn’t get to work on it. They actually chose to get off of them and then work on it and figure out how to heal.

So, I love that you bring this up. I love that you’re an advocate for helping people to gain more skills, more life skills emotionally, mentally and spiritually so they can really actualize the beings that they are inside and let go of the stories and the limitations that have been imposed upon them or self-imposed I should say.

Kerri Hummingbird, it’s been such a pleasure having you on the show. Your website is kerrihummingbird.com and you have a free gift, Love Mastery Game that you’re giving us. Listeners can go to kerrihummingbird.com/play for that. Is there anything you’d like to say to wrap up today’s interview?


[1:31:09] Kerri Hummingbird: Yes. I really encourage everybody to take a look at your thumbprint every day and remind yourself that you are living in a unique puzzle that was built just for you. If you don’t get curious about it and start discovering all about it inside of you, it’ll never go discovered. It’ll be just the lost puzzle that never got solved. So, it’s really up to each one of us to solve that puzzle that we are, that life plan, that thumbprint suit and figure out everything about it. Look at Ashley’s life, so amazing. You went through all that journey and my life. I mean, on the other side of what you think is horrible is actually an incredible journey of discovery. So, I just welcome everybody to take that journey for themselves.


[1:31:54] Ashley James: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Kerri.


[1:31:56] Kerri Hummingbird: Thank you.


[1:31:57] Outro: Hello, true health seeker. Have you ever thought about becoming a health coach? Do you love learning about nutrition? How we can shift our lifestyle and our diet so that we can gain optimal health and happiness and longevity. Do you love helping your friends and family to solve their health problems and to figure out what they can do to eat healthier? Are you interested in becoming someone who can grow their own business, support people in their success? Do you love helping people?

You might be the perfect candidate to become a health coach. I highly recommend checking out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. I just spent the last year in their health coaching certification program. And it really blew me away. It was so amazing. I learned over a hundred dietary theories. I learned all about nutrition, but from a standpoint of how we can help people to shift their life and shift their lifestyle to gain true holistic health. I definitely recommend you check them out. You can Google Institute for Integrative Nutrition or IIN and give them a call. Or you can go to learntruehealth.com/coach and you can receive a free module of their training to check it out and see if it’s something that you’d be interested in. Be sure to mention my name Ashley James and the Learn True Health podcast because I made a deal with them that they will give you the best price possible. I highly recommend checking it out. It really changed my life to be in their program. And I’m such a big advocate that I wanted to spread this information.

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So check out IIN. Check out the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Mention my name, get the best deal. Give them a call and they’ll give you lots of free information and help you to see if this is the right move for you. Classes are starting soon. The next round of classes are starting at the end of the month. So you’re going to want to call them now and check it out. And if you know anyone in your life who would be an amazing coach, please tell them about it. Being a health coach is so rewarding and you get to help so many people.

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